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ON THE RECORD
ALUN MICHAEL INTERVIEW
RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 18.10.98
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JOHN HUMPHRYS: Good afternoon Mr Michael.
ALUN MICHAEL: Good afternoon.
HUMPHRYS: Do you acknowledge first that there is a
serious problem with racism in Britain's Police Forces?
MICHAEL: Yes, there's clearly a serious problem.
On the other hand it's also clear from the statements that have been made by a
number of very senior police officers in the last week that the problems are
accepted and that there are a lot of people that want to do something about it.
I think it's worth making the point that twelve months ago a thematic report by
the Inspectorate of Constabulary under the title 'Winning the Race'came out,
and it highlighted many of these problems and that led to the Home Secretary
giving notice to the Police Service that twelve months later, probably early in
the New Year he would be calling a conference at which he would want to hear
from the police generally what they have done to put the recruitment and
retention of black and asian police officers on a much sounder basis.
HUMPHRYS: So given that you acknowledge the
problem is serious, do you also acknowledge that therefore racism of some sort
or another was behind that appalling murder of Stephen Lawrence?
MICHAEL: Well, it was the Home Secretary who set
up the Stephen Lawrence inquiry, rightly taking the view that it needed to be
looked at independently and clinically, and for a report to be made to him. So
the report of that inquiry will come to ministers. I think it would be wrong
to comment on what that report might say, but I think it's quite clear that
already the hearings and the report of them have raised the debate about the
way in which the Police Service office operates and the extent to which it
reflects the community it serves in a modern multi-cultural society very much
under focus, and I think we should all welcome the sort of debate that's going
on. Can I also mention of course, when the Home Secretary speaks to the
Association of Black Police Officers tomorrow it'll be the first time that a
Home Secretary has done that, and I think by doing that he's giving a very very
clear message about the need to engage in a positive and constructive dialogue
in order to make things - to make sure that things do change for the better.
HUMPHRYS: And he will make it quite clear that we
do need more black police officers?
MICHAEL: Yes, certainly, not only we do we need
more recruited, but we need more retained, and one of the worries is that we've
not seen enough black police officers coming through promotion or staying in
the Police Service for the long term. Now, there are some black police
officers that are coming increasingly to the higher ranks of the police and
that's very much to be welcomed, but that's not a development that's taken
place at the speed with which the change in the community in this country has
gone.
HUMPHRYS: And as you say, that has happened quite
considerably. Now, let's look at how targets might work, and if you look at
the figures as there are at the moment in the United Kingdom two per cent of
the Police Force taken across the board are black, police officers are black.
Six per cent of the population as a whole is black or asian. Have those
figures to be the same in your view. Do we have to have - we've got six per
cent black and asian people - should we have six per cent black and asian
officers?
MICHAEL: Well, I would remind you that we've got
over forty Police Forces in this country, and if some were slightly above
and some were slightly below, but in general....
HUMPHRYS: I'm talking about .... averaging it out,
yeah.
MICHAEL: Yes, that's right. And I would make the
point as well, that of course it's not just a question of targeting those areas
where the community contains a large number of black and asian people. People
should be able to go to any part of the country and feel that they're going to
be dealt with by a Police Service that respects and understands diversity in
the modern society.
HUMPHRYS: But in London for instance the figure is
much more dramatic than that, the comparison is much more dramatic. Three per
cent are black and asian, black or asian officers. Twenty per cent of the
population of London is black or asian. Now that target is to make those
figures match is it?
MICHAEL: To get close to making those figures
match yes. I mean I don't think we're about arithmetic, but we are about
bulk, you know, about the fairness, and....
HUMPHRYS: The targets are necessarily about ....
MICHAEL: Yes, exactly. So the Home Secretary
isn't seeking to be prescriptive, but he's saying it's reflecting the make-up
of British society that would be the best outcome, reflecting that the problems
have been understood and that the Police Service is in good health as we go
into a new century. Now obviously you can't do that overnight and there has
been a recognition by many people of the need to recruit and retain more black
police officers, but the thing is that it's been happening quite slowly, and I
think what the Home Secretary is saying, we recognise it's going to take time,
but this process has got to accelerate, otherwise we're going to run into
serious problems.
HUMPHRYS: How do you do it then?
MICHAEL: You do it by working with people. For
instance the Home Secretary's keeness to work with the Black Police Association
in itself says something, because of course as they are officers serving in
police forces up and down the country, and particularly in the Metropolitan
Police, they are the people who know what it's like at the inside, what the
problems are, why people leave. Secondly the way in which the Police Service
advertises and recruits, the way in which it implements personnel policies,
all of those things were highlighted very strongly in the thematic report which
the inspectorate published last year, and I must say that the robust way in
which the inspectorate who are all former chief constables or have operated at
that level, the extent to which they have engaged with this issue is very
encouraging indeed.
HUMPHRYS: But they're the same people who've been
presiding over the police force for many years that has allowed this situation
to develop.
MICHAEL: Yes, and the fact that they're now
engaging with it, and the fact that there is change going on, I think is very
encouraging.
HUMPHRYS: But they've failed.....
MICHAEL: One of the problems John, is that one
understands that many people in the wider community, in black communities who
have been complaining about issues in relation to the Police Service for some
time, will take a little bit of persuading that major change is underway. But
of course you can't bring about change without saying we need change to happen,
we need to take the Police Service as a whole with us. There are many police
officers who will welcome this sort of development..
HUMPHRYS: And there are many who won't.
MICHAEL: ..and it needs to be done with care.
HUMPHRYS: And there are many who won't,
MICHAEL: There are some who won't but I think
that many police officers have actually come to realise that they need to work
with the community. I mean, I hear that from police officers at every level of
the service now, whereas at one time perhaps it was thought that the Police
Service could do it all, that crime was a job for the police. Increasingly you
will hear police officers saying we can't do it all ourselves, we need to work
with the community, we need to listen to the community. Yes we need to be
tough and robust, we need to target crime and of course the Prime Minister has
had a lot to say about the need to target crime rather than just tolerating
high levels. But it needs to be done in a way that takes the community with us.
Now that understanding within the Police Force I think is growing.
HUMPHRYS: If indeed that understanding exists. But
what if these targets are not met. I mean, we've heard this sort of talk, as
you will acknowledge, many many times in the past. We've had all sorts of
fancy new advertising campaigns. I can remember some of the slogans, some of
the pictures myself, as you can, so on the face of it there isn't anything
desperately different about this. Now, what if these targets are not met,
because you call them targets, you don't call them quotas, I can't see the
difference frankly, but what if they're not met?
MICHAEL: Firstly, John, there are a number of
things that are quite different. Firstly I think this is the first time we've
had a Home Secretary with this sort of commitment to change and..
HUMPHRYS: No, they've all said they want
commitment to change.
MICHAEL: No, please, John, be fair.
HUMPHRYS: They really have, I've spoken to them
myself.
MICHAEL: John, please, if you look at everything
Jack Straw has done since he took office as Home Secretary, he's been
delivering on promises in a way that I think very few Home Secretaries have
achieved, certainly in the last twenty years. Jack is a man of his word. He's
made it clear, he's given advance warning to the Police Service. When the
thematic came out last year, instead of just berating them he said this report
is absolutely crucial, it sets out what is wrong, it sets out the way of
putting things right, I'll be coming back to you in twelve months' time to ask
what you've done about it.
HUMPHRYS: So in that case he's giving a very clear
idea of what he's got to do if these targets are not met - won't he?
MICHAEL: I think that the Police Service will
recognise the fact that there is an imperative in the way that the Home
Secretary is putting it and certainly from conversations with a number of
senior police officers, I think the Police Service now understands that it's
got to change. Now, the point of targets is that you look to see if change is
happening at the pace that's required. That means that that's out in the public
view, it's not something that's hidden, it's not a conversation between the
Home Secretary and Chief Constables, it'll be out in public..
HUMPHRYS: In other words we will know. We will
know in London for instance that there must be a certain percentage of black
officers by a certain date and if that doesn't happen then something else will
happen, heads will roll. Is that the case?
MICHAEL: I think that's very much the case but I
think the clarity..
HUMPHRYS: Fill the quotas..
MICHAEL: The clarity of that intention will help
the achievement of it and setting targets isn't just about bearing down and
shouting at people, it's about about working with them. The Home Secretary is
somebody who seeks to work with the Police Service making very clear what he
expects, but then saying we'll work with you to try and achieve this. The
inspectorate will be working with Police Forces...
HUMPHRYS: I'd frankly be amazed if the Home
Secretary said I'm not going to be working with you. I mean you are making a
great deal of this, Mr Michael, but you know of course the Home Secretary will
say I'm going to work with you. It would be extraordinary if he didn't, won't
it.
MICHAEL: It would be extraordinary if he admitted
it but it hasn't happened in the past. There's a difference about this Home
Secretary, he gets his sleeves rolled up and gets down to it. I mean that's
why for me it's a great pleasure working with him.
HUMPHRYS: Yeah, but he can't do it himself.
MICHAEL: Sorry?
HUMPHRYS: He can't do it himself and we've had
these sorts of exhortations time and time again in the past and my question to
you is: what is going to happen if these targets are not met, as they have not
been in the past?
MICHAEL: John, you're saying on the one hand that
he can't get down and do it himself.
HUMPHRYS: Of course he can't.
MICHAEL: And I'm trying to make clear to you the
sort of measures that will be undertaken. You have the thematic report, you
have the conference in January where we will be expecting the Police Service to
report back on what they intend to do to bring the level of black and Asian
police officers up to the sort of level of the population as a whole. We
will..the Inspectorate of Constabulary goes into every police service and looks
at the way that they are operating against a whole series of targets and one of
those targets will be the target to achieve recruitment and retention of black
and Asian police officers...
HUMPHRYS; And promotion...
MICHAEL: Can I carry on because there are other
measures. There's the return to the thematic, there's further visits to Police
Forces by the Inspectorate to discuss through what they are doing, whether they
are starting to move in the right direction. There's the fact that the Home
Secretary is going to the Association's Conference this week when he won't just
be setting out what he's doing, he'll be listening to what they have to say.
We'll also be working with the Associations, that's the Superintendent's
Association, the Police Federation.
HUMPHRYS: Yeah, you told me that.
MICHAEL: Well no I didn't tell you, it's the
first time I've mentioned that John.
HUMPHRYS: Well you said that he was going to be
working with the police to do it. Okay, of course, I fully accept that. What I
am asking you, what is going to happen if these targets, and you're quite
specific about this, that they are effectively quotas in the sense that if they
are not met, you know we will know what the figures are, what is going to
happen if those targets are not met?
MICHAEL: I think it's unthinkable that they won't
be met. We need to work on this and make sure that they are met John. I don't
think that threats - what you are asking me to do is to issue threats to Chief
Constables about what will happen if they don't meet a target. I don't think
that's the way to approach it. I think that there will be a motivation on the
Chief Constables, when they see the determination of the Home Secretary, that
we should move rapidly and effectively in this direction to work with us to
achieve that.
HUMPHRYS: Let's look at this question of
promotions then. You say more black officers have to be promoted. So in other
words, there will be positive discrimination on the part of black officers.
You've got a couple of, I don't know, PCs who want to become a sergeant or
something or sergeants who want to become an inspector, they're both equal, one
of them is black the other one is white, the black one gets the job. Is that
it?
MICHAEL: No, because the appointments have to be
on merit..
HUMPHRYS: ..well quite..
MICHAEL: ..but you can position people - no let
me answer the full question - you can position people by making sure that on
recruitment they're given the opportunities to do training and there's a major
review going on into the whole training system for the police at the moment..
HUMPHRYS: So you discriminate in their favour?
MICHAEL: You make sure they get the training
they need to be able to have a fair chance at the job.
HUMPHRYS: And don't white police officers get
that same opportunity?
MICHAEL: Yes of course they must John. I mean
the way in which you do it is to make sure that on training there is fairness
in the way that the whole system operates and there has not been fairness in
the past. It's been more difficult for black and Asian officers to come
through. Now this applies in the recruitment in all elements of the public
service. For instance, I had to do recruitment for my own private office just
recently and I made sure that there were black and Asian people who had an
opportunity of the interviews in order to come through into the private office.
In the civil service generally, in the health service, in a variety of other
public services there has been much more progress than there has been in the
police. Now that's not by saying you have two people to interview and you take
the black person. What it is to say is that you must make sure that they have
the training, the opportunity, that they get to the level in order to be able
to bid for jobs and that there is not a discrimination in the way they're
regarded in the personnel procedures and by senior officers.
HUMPHRYS: But the problem here is this isn't it,
that there is a vicious circle. Black and Asian people by and large don't want
to join the police force because they assume there is institutional racism in
there. A fact that's been confirmed by various Chief Constables this past week,
you've yourself acknowledged that the problem is very serious. Because there
is institutional racism they don't apply, because they don't apply the racism
continues. That's the situation isn't it? It's very hard to see how you can
turn that around.
MICHAEL: That's the danger, but it has been
turned around in many organisations and that's what we're determined shall
happen in the police service as well..
HUMPHRYS: It's very different though between the
medical service for instance, between the NHS for instance and the police force
isn't it?
MICHAEL: It is different and that's why the
solutions for the police service have to be appropriate to the police service.
But what has to happen is that we have to understand what's happening within
the police service, why people don't come through. People who think of coming
in, and there are many young black and Asian men and women who have a great
deal to contribute to the police service, they must be assured that when they
go in they will be treated properly, they will have an opportunity, they will
be given the training. Now can I say John, in the last year I've met a lot of
people up and down the country including some black and Asian officers that
have come into the Special Constabulary for instance and I think there are some
very bright spots up and down the country. There are some people making a
considerable contribution already. There is change taking place in the police
service. I don't think we should look at it as if it's all negative because it
isn't. What we want to make sure though is that we build on the positives,
that we listen to the voices of those who have experience, which is why the
Home Secretary will be listening to their voices tomorrow, that senior officers
are given the opportunity to move quickly in the direction that I think we all
want to see things go and that we end up with a police service which is fair,
well structured and reflects the community that it serves.
HUMPHRYS: Right. Thank you for that. Let me turn
in the last minute or two of this interview to the question of General
Pinochet who has now been arrested. It's a very odd business this isn't it?
You give him a visa to come into this country..
MICHAEL: No we don't.
HUMPHRYS: Well somebody gave him a visa.
MICHAEL: No, he didn't have to have a visa.
People coming in from Chile, particularly somebody coming in for medical
treatment firstly doesn't require a visa..
HUMPHRYS: But you could have stopped him coming
in?
MICHAEL: No, he...
HUMPHRYS: But you stop all manner of people coming
in.
MICHAEL: John, he does not require a visa to come
into this country from Chile. Secondly, I understand that he travelled on a
diplomatic passport. A diplomatic passport of course doesn't guarentee
diplomatic immunity...
HUMPHRYS: So you didn't know he'd come in?
MICHAEL: Sorry?
HUMPHRYS: You didn't know that he'd come in?
MICHAEL: Well if somebody arrives to come into
the country their..their request to come in, their arrival is obviously
scrutinised at the airport or wherever. There would be no reason to prevent
him coming in at that stage. What since we have had is a request from the
Spanish authorities which I should make clear, the Home Secretary doesn't take
part in until it comes to him, at this stage it's a matter for the police and
the Bow Street Magistrate. The country applying, in this case Spain, has forty
days in which to provide the detail at which point the case will go to the Home
Secretary for him to decide whether to give authority to proceed. That's
provided the police have acted on the request and that the magistrate has
agreed that it should go ahead.
HUMPHRYS: What the opposition is suggesting is
that you bowed to political pressure here because he was allowed to.. let's not
go back over the question of how he got in, he was allowed one way or the other
to come into this country, if it was through diplomatic immunity then you
weren't...
MICHAEL: No, not diplomatic immunity.
HUMPHRYS: Well, you said he came in on a
diplomatic ticket effectively.
MICHAEL: I also said John, that we understand
that he came in using a diplomatic passport, that does not necessarily convey
diplomatic immunity.
HUMPHRYS: But he was allowed to come in. He has
now been arrested and the suggestion from the opposition is that - let me put
the question to you very briefly. We haven't got long left. The suggestion
from the oppostition is that you are bowing to political pressure here.
MICHAEL: John it's ridiculous and the question is
wrong. When you say he was allowed in, it makes it sound as if the government
made a positive decision to allow him in. He came in, as I understand it, on a
passport which does not require a visa, presenting himself he would have
provided evidence of coming for medical treatment. There's no reason for the
immigration authorities to stop him at that stage. Having arrived and gone
into hospital there has been an application from the Spanish authorities which
the police and the magistrates have to act on within forty days. The Spanish
authorities have to give the detail of their application at that point the Home
Secretary has to decide whether to allow the process to continue. It's a very
clear process and there has been no intervention which is inappropriate in it
at all and the question is wrong.
HUMPHRYS: Alun Michael, than you very much for
joining us.
MICHAEL: Thank you.
...ooOOoo...
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