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ON THE RECORD
PADDY ASHDOWN INTERVIEW
RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 18.5.97
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JOHN HUMPHRYS: The Liberal Democrats have more MPs
than they've ever had - forty-six of them. So what? You might say. The
Government has a clear majority of one hundred and seventy nine. Before
the Election Paddy Ashdown told us his Party would make the difference this
time around. The question now is: how? Well Mr Ashdown joins me now from the
garden - the sunny garden it must be said by the look of it anyway - of his
home in Yeovil. Good afternoon Mr Ashdown.
PADDY ASHDOWN: Good afternoon John, nice to be with
you, nice to be here.
HUMPHRYS: Well, you are- It certainly looks it.
Your place in the sun in that respect at least, but perhaps not in Parliament
any longer because you have more seats as we've said but that enormous majority
enjoyed by the Government, do you still believe that you can make the
difference?
ASHDOWN: Yes.
HUMPHRYS: How?
ASHDOWN: Well in a number of ways. I mean let's
take a look at the present Queen's Speech. There are five measures in that
Queen's Speech that are Liberal Democrat policies - first saw the light of day
in Liberal Democrat policy documents: the Independent Central Bank, late
payment of debt for small businesses, the incorporation of the European
Convention, you see. So the influence of Liberal Democrats on this Government
- and incidently many of those measures weren't in the Labour Manifesto - is
already very evident. Secondly, you have a Conservative Party that is - and we
could only hear it very clearly expresed by Michael Howard's extraordinary
interview, in which he actually called for the re-negotiation of the Treaty of
Rome for goodness' sake - back to the Labour Party of the 1970s for the
Tories.
The Tory Party now are going to be
disabled - for what? Months? I would have thought perhaps even for a number
of years. I mean I think there is every evidence from the vitriol and
virulence of the internal and bloody civil war now raging in the Conservative
Party - over not just the Leadership but the soul of the Party - that they're
going to go through a period not unlike Labour in the 1980s. Now the question
therefore is who is going to be the effective Opposition. And, thirdly, is it
the case - as Jack Weatherill said very wisely earlier on - that with the
largest force of Liberal Democrats - Liberals that there has been for sixty
years - a return in fact of three Party politics? We can use this opportunity
not just to change the way the House of Commons does its business - which we
certainly ought to do to incorporate that fact - but also the whole culture of
our politics to break the tribalism that has done so much damage to British
politics and to see if we can move to a rather more rational, grown up and
intelligent form of politics of the House of Commons between an Opposition -
the Liberal Democrats - that is determined to support what it agrees with and
oppose what it doesn't and a Government that is pushing forward many policies
that we agree with anyway.
HUMPHRYS: Alright, well, let's pick up that last
point, then: the grown up politics as you describe them. Many people think
it's a jolly good idea. The question is: how is it going to work? I mean
what's Mr Blair said to you about that?
ASHDOWN: Well Mr Blair hasn't said anything to
me. I don't anticipate that he should - he's the Prime Minister. If he wishes
to see me of course I would go and see him. But, let me put it to you this
way: the Queen's Speech that's now before us containing five measures that
first saw the light of day from the Liberal Democrats and indeed most of the
measures are the ones that were also in our Manifesto. It's rather more an
enactment of our manifesto than it is Labour's. What we will do is we will
support those measures. But where it comes to doing the things that this
Goverment has failed to do - for instance the rhetoric on Education, raising
standards - I agree - hear, hear to that! But where's the money going to come
from? And if it doesn't come to make that a reality in the Budget, you'll find
us opposing that strenuously. We will be a scourge as we were during the
General Election for an honest kind of politics that says: if you want to do
something, if you will the ends, you must will the means. And you'll see that
coming through very strongly.
HUMPHRYS: But, if we take those five measures that
you say - that are in the Queen's Speech - that you say you approve so strongly
of - you're not telling me surely that they're there because you wanted them?
We're all Liberal Democrats now as it were?
ASHDOWN: Well it's interesting. I mean Labour's
abandoned Socialism and is trying desperately to find new things to believe in.
I think it's quite interesting that they should pick up ideas which were not in
their manifesto. I mean quite rightly people have identified the independence
of the Bank of England. That was not in the manifesto. It was in our
manifesto and we argued for it very strongly. Indeed when we first put forward
those proposals and right up until about a year ago, and they were first put
forward by us about six or seven years ago, we were virulently attacked by the
Labour Party, who've now adopted them. So it is quite interesting to note
which way Labour's going.
But look, what we now have is a
situation where we will say to Labour: okay the words are there - that's fine.
Words are cheap, now let's see if you can back those with commitments. Are you
really going to bring in the political reform to which you are committed and
with which we have an agreement with? And, are you going to back means with
resources? Why is it that a Freedom of Information Act for instance -
absolutely essential to a modern kind of democracy that Mr Blair is talking
about - is not in the Queen's Speech? Where's the timetable for that? And
we will act as a scourge and a go in order to bring about those things.
HUMPHRYS: Ah-Well indeed, there are things that
you badly wanted that are not, were not in that Queen's Speech. Now, the
point-
ASHDOWN: .....answer.
HUMPHRYS: Let me finish the question, let me
finish the question. You make great play of those five things that are there
that you did want. Now they would have done those things anyway. The reality
surely is what you are-
ASHDOWN: Well-
HUMPHRYS: -is a kind of pressure group and they
cherry pick.
ASHDOWN: No.
HUMPHRYS: They pick and choose the things that you
like and that they like as well - of course we'll have those. But those things
that they want, we're not so keen on, we won't have them.
ASHDOWN: Well let's-Well what are you talking
about here?
HUMPHRYS: Well I'm talking about all the kinds
of-You mentioned five measures and you implied that they were there because
you wanted them. Now they were there in truth because they wanted them.
ASHDOWN: Now-Well, John, I don't know why they
were they. I can't see inside Labour's brain but I can tell you-
HUMPHRYS: They were there because they wanted them
surely?
ASHDOWN: Well I can tell you this that it is
because of the success of the Liberal Democrats, because we've put those ideas
forward that they've now become part of a policy of Great Britain. Now, let's
see if we can go further. Where are Labour's failures? Labour has failed yet
- I hope they will deliver it fairly soon - to put a timetable down for a
Freedom of Information Act. That's absolutely crucial. I understand why that
wasn't in the Queen's Speech because of the pressure of business. It can be
done in the second year provided there is a timetable laid out with the White
Paper. Now we'll be a pressure on the Government to do that. As you know
there are certain agreements that we have, for instance about an Electoral
Reform Commission which needs to be launched - and will, I believe be launched
in the near future. And there are other things that we must press for and we
will press for. For instance, if Labour does not provide the resources to
tackle the crisis in our schools and tackle the crisis in our Health Service,
teachers will go on being sacked, standards will go on falling; class sizes,
whatever they say to the contrary will start to rise and the crisis in our
hospitals will deepen this winter. That's when Labour's problems come. And on
those things we shall be implacable. We shall be a scourge to ensure that
Labour doesn't get away with warm words but no resources.
HUMPHRYS: Alright, let's pick up the thought of
the Electoral Commission which is so dear to your heart and on which you did a
deal with the Labour Party before the Election. As you say: no mention of it -
obviously no mention in the Queen's Speech. Perhaps it didn't have to be
there-
ASHDOWN: No.
HUMPHRYS: -in order to set up the Commission.
But nonetheless, no timetable for it. Now you said you 'expected' I think you
said 'expected' to happen in the near future. What makes you think it will?
What evidence have you got for that?
ASHDOWN: Well hang on John. What makes you think
it won't?
HUMPHRYS: Well, it hasn't been mentioned - that's
why.
ASHDOWN: It wouldn't be mentioned in a Queen's
Speech as you rightly said yourself.
HUMPHRYS: No but it's so important and you and
he and your Parties got together to talk about it before the Election. One
might have thought that they'd been in power for a few weeks now, there might
have been at least informal soundings between you and them so that you could
set up some kind of timetable.
ASHDOWN: Come, come. Do give Government
Ministers a chance to get their feet under the table.
HUMPHRYS: Well, they've done an awful lot else!
ASHDOWN: Labour may renege but I don't believe
they will. I see no evidence of bad faith and I'd like you to tell me what
evidence of bad faith you've seen. And, I mean, the presumption is that if you
make an agreement - and Labour's made a solemn agreement with us on these
matters that those will be delivered.
It would be a remarkable thing - and in
my view a very damaging thing indeed for Labour, if an agreement made solemnly,
and in public, about the modernisation of our institutions was reneged on, when
they came to power. All the trust that Mr Blair has asked for and he's started
very well as the Prime Minister - all the trust that he's asked for would
vanish out of the window, if Labour reneged on that promise. And I see no
evidence that they will.
HUMPHRYS: Right.
ASHDOWN: The presumption is of good faith and I
believe that good faith will be delivered but if it isn't, well then, you can
expect us to be extremely tough about it.
HUMPHRYS: Right, well when do you start to get
extremely tough? Let's assume that they intend to do it but obviously, you
want it done sooner, rather than later.
ASHDOWN: Right.
HUMPHRYS: When will you start to say: well, hang
on a minute, now - got to get tough.
ASHDOWN: Let's look at those straight up. I
mean, the Electoral Reform Commission: I would expect that to be named and
underway certainly before the summer recess...
HUMPHRYS: Next few weeks, in other words?
ASHDOWN: ..or over this period of months. Well,
the next few months - let's put it that way. I would certainly expect a
timetable for the Freedom of Information Bill. There is in a statement from
Labour that says that Proportional Representation for the 1999 Euro Elections
is absolutely-is their policy and intention. Well, there'll be acts that they
can make to ensure that that is understood and they intend to carry those
through. They need to be given a bit of time to do that but I have no reason
to believe and frankly, neither have you; it's an interesting piece of
speculation - that Labour intends to act in bad faith on this - on the
contrary.
Now, there are things that are going to
come before that and they're much more important immediately to those teachers
that are about to be sacked; and one of those things is the Budget. Will the
Budget deliver an increase in resources for Educaction because if it doesn't
then the teachers that are now receiving their redundancy notices across this
country will be sacked. Now, we'll see that in the next two or three weeks and
in many ways, that's far more urgent and far more important. And, if Labour
fails to deliver on that and the crises in our schools deepens and our children
have to do in larger classes, whatever Labour's rhetoric to the contrary,then
you'll find us saying some very tough things indeed.
HUMPHRYS: Right. Just come back to that in a
second. But, to return to your thoughts on the legislation. And this time we
are talking about legislation that's needed if we're going to have PR for
European Elections in what is it - 1999? That's got to be done very swiftly,
as you say. So, again, how soon is all that got to be started and put into
place.
ASHDOWN: No, I mean, there's a very busy
programme. It's perfectly possible to do that for instance...providing it's
done swiftly - at the end of this year, or if there's legislative time in this
year. We didn't expect that to appear in the Queen's Speech.
HUMPHRYS: OK.
ASHDOWN: But there is work that needs to be
done. For instance, the work that is going on ahead now on the Boundary
Commissions. That work is being done by the Boundary Commissions at this very
moment on the presumption that the European Elections will be held on the
present system. If the Government is sincere about making this - I quote
their words - "their policy and intention" for the 1999 Election, they'll have
to act very soon to change the work of the Boundary Commissions. And that
will be one of the early flags, as to whether Labour is intending to fulfill
its commitments and to fulfill its agreements.
But, as I say, there is no evidence, at
present and I work on the assumption and I think it's the right one that Labour
is serious, that Labour has entered into these agreements seriously; that they
intend to...they did it in good faith and they intend to deliverin good faith.
HUMPHRYS: Alright, now you talk about Education.
You're worried - like lots of other people - about teachers being sacked and
all the rest of it - had you been in power you'd have put a bit more money on
Income Tax to pay for all these sorts of things. What do you expect them to
do? Because you can be as much of a scourge - to use the word you used a
number of times in this interview - as you like but in truth you are a band of
forty-six MPs. They have a stonking majority of one hundred and seventy-nine
seats. You can scourge as much as you like.
ASHDOWN: Well, there, the presumption that you
make, of course, is that Labour is a cohesive force that will hold together and
you've heard very clearly earlier on that that may not be the case.
I think Labour is going to hit some
quite serious problems. The first problem will be Europe. We know they're
divided. It may well be, as Mr Blair says - quite rightly - that the
pro-European majority in these Parties is larger than it was in the last
Parliament but there's still a very substantial number of Labour MPs - what?
Sixty/seventy, perhaps, who are anti-Europeans and when some of that European
legislation comes through it will be very interesting to see what happens,
then.
HUMPHRYS: Still leaves an awful lot on their side
doesn't it.
ASHDOWN: Well, you and I don't know the
mathematics. But, let's assume that Labour has to...and their their
councillors and their MPs have to face the fact that if Labour fails to provide
the resources for Health and Education - and, there's no sign of that yet in
the Budget - that there is - not only the same crisis but - a deepening and
worsening crisis in our schools and our hospitals in the autumn and winter of
this year, then, I think, you're going to find a very different attitude in
Labour. Now, the truth of it is - and I remember you and I discussing this
before the last Election - that the Liberal Democrats are now the only united
and cohesive force in British politics. The divisions of the Conservative
Party in their civil war are evident - and, evident from that fascinating
interview with Michael Howard you did earlier on - but the divisions of Labour
- as they come under the pressures of Government are there and clear and deep
and may well become very clear.
Now, can we change the style of our
politics so that we, as Liberal Democrats, can have a more constructive form of
opposition, I'm prepared to do that.
HUMPHRYS: Right.
ASHDOWN: And, can there be a case where,
therefore, where we play a hand - which, incidentally, I was prepared to play
with the last Prime Minister - over Europe - the Conservative government - and,
if he had done it, he wouldn't have had the problems he had - to bring about an
agreement between Government and Opposition Parties, where they agree and it's
in the national interest and for us to push the Government where they fail. I
think we can.
HUMPHRYS: Alright. So, I want to come back
to the style of politics in a second. But, you can see yourself happily
working with the Conservatives, then, in a way that you haven't done in the
past?
ASHDOWN: John, I have this rather naive,
interesting notion that where you agree with somebody you should work with
them. Where you disagree, you should oppose them.
HUMPHRYS: Right.
ASHDOWN: I frankly can't see very much in the
Conservatives' manifesto at present...the Conservative programme at present
that I can agree with. I could agree with Kenneth Clarke on Europe and if he
wins the Leadership, then there are obviously things one can do together.
But, I - it's the policies that drive, not the cosy agreements between
individuals or Parties. If the Conservative Party wants to rediscover one
nation Conservatism - I think, it's extremely unlikely. I think, they'll shift
to the Right - then, of course, there are things we can do.
Meanwhile, we know there are things we
can agree with in this Government and we are prepared to work with them to do
that. I think that would..I think that would improve our politics, as we come
into the new century, immeasurably. And, we can be the force that does that.
Where we disagree, where they think they've failed - the windfall tax is an
example - we will oppose them, like and Opposition Party should.
I'm fed up with the idea that
you...oppositions oppose whatever the measure and whatever the circumstances.
I happen to believe in a rather different kind of politics and I think one of
the reasons why we have such a powerful force in this Parliament is because the
British people rather agree with that and want us to do that, too.
HUMPHRYS: Well, maybe, but the question of the
style of government. Aren't you just a little bit concerned that the signals
that have been coming out from the Labour Party, the Government leadership over
the past few days...we had Peter Mandelson on this very programme just last
week, telling us what he thought about the role of MPs, his own MPs. They were
sent to parliament he suggested, as delegates, not as representatives. You've
had your own example of this from Tony Blair. PMQs - he's changed the system,
or he's changing the system for Prime Minister's Questions. Did he consult
you? No, he did not. He told you.
ASHDOWN: No, you're wrong, he did.
HUMPHRYS: Well, now that isn't....
ASHDOWN: You're wrong he did. That isn't a piece
of news.
HUMPHRYS: Hang on. No, no, no.
ASHDOWN: It's well known.
HUMPHRYS: Well, Peter Mandelson said on this
programme he told you and Mr Major what was going to happen, not consulted you
to get your views.
ASHDOWN: Mr Mandelson will have his own views.
He wants to have the appropriate column inches in the newspaper that reinforces
his position no doubt, but Mr Blair rang me and asked me and told me..
HUMPHRYS: Told you.
ASHDOWN: Well, he consulted with me John. He
said to me that was what he intended to do. He told me that's what he intended
to do - he said what was my response. Now, since what he was proposing to do
was exactly what the Liberal Democrats had put evidence into the committee
before the House of Commons - before the last election that we wanted to see, I
naturally said to him: "I entirely agree with that". But there's no question
that he did consult us and inform us about that beforehand. He has again,
picked up, not again, but he has chosen to reform Prime Minister's Questions
along the broad lines that were proposed by the Liberal Democrats a year ago,
so it's hardly surprising that I said it should go ahead.
HUMPHRYS: So, so long as he tells you what he's
going to do, and then asks you for your view...
ASHDOWN: John, he is the Prime Minister.
HUMPHRYS: Well indeed, no doubt about that, with a
great majority, that's been the point of this discussion.
ASHDOWN: Indeed so. But you know, when Mr Major
consulted me you could say he told me about the Gulf War, when the British
troops were going in. No doubt he told Mr Blair as well. But the idea that he
did not consult, he did not inform, he did not seek our views is wrong. He did
seek my views beforehand. I don't know whether he did with Mr Major. I don't
know whether he did with the Speaker.
HUMPHRYS: Right.
ASHDOWN: But he certainly did with me. And he
behaved in that fashion exactly as Mr Major did beforehand. You may call it
consultation or whatever you like.
HUMPHRYS: No, no, no, I would draw a huge
distinction between a matter of national security, when we're talking about the
Gulf War for instance, or any war for that matter, and something like a
parliamentary procedure. Well, no, let me just make the point if I may, that
in the question of parliamentary procedures, many people would argue it is for
parliament to decide. It isn't for a Prime Minister to come along and say:
this is what we are going to do.
ASHDOWN: That's a matter for parliament to decide
upon. What you asked me is whether or not Mr Blair told me about this, and
asked for my views. He did, and I told him that since what he was doing was
what I already agreed with I was in favour of it. And that's a perfectly
appropriate thing to do. He acted perfectly correctly in that way, and whether
or not it is the case that he should have put that proposition to parliament is
a different matter. Now, I suspect the judgement went something like this. If
I put it to parliament there'll be a row. Parliament will fall back into its
old ways, and my chances of changing parliament are rather slim. That's a
matter of judgement, but incidentally procedurally the form and nature of
questions are entirely the matter as the Speaker made the other day, entirely
the matter of government ministers. Now, you might argue that he should have
come to parliament, although if he'd have done so perhaps it wouldn't have been
changed, parliament is extremely resistant to any kind of reform and change. I
think we now have a more sensible structure for Prime Minister's Questions, and
I am delighted by that, particularly since it conforms largely with what we
said we agreed with more than a year ago.
HUMPHRYS: One of your very influential members
Lord McNally, says that you should now be regarded - you've got to be taken
much more seriously - as the Opposition. In that sense what else are you
looking for. How does that change your role and what more do you want?
ASHDOWN: Well, if you look at the Opposition
benches now, you must recognise that the Liberal Democrats comprise about a
third of the Opposition. It is a remarkable achievement I think, of the party
at large. And so I think our speaking rights, and our rights to make sure our
voice is heard will be, and I'm sure Madam Speaker will respond to that, will
be much much greater than they were before. Jack Weatherill was very clear
about that and I'm sure the Speaker will see things in the same rights. So you
will find that the voice of the party, its capacity to intervene, its numbers
will make a difference because of the splits in the other two parties, it will
seek now to mark out the things that we ask people to vote for. We came with a
strong mandate for more investment in education, for more investment in health,
for the environment to be at the centre of our government's policy, which
incidentaly it's not, and for a more rational form of politics. We shall use
that mandate the people have given us, and the extra strength we have with I
hope a more powerful voice in the House of Commons to ensure we achieve that.
What else should we do?
HUMPHRYS: Paddy Ashdown, I can't answer that
question because we've run out of time. You'd better get in from the sun
before you get burnt. Thank you very much indeed.
ASHDOWN: Thank you very much.
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