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                                 ON THE RECORD 
 
 
RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1                                 DATE: 20.10.96
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INTERVIEW WITH PADDY ASHDOWN

But first, the Liberal Democrats. Next  
week the Queen will tell us what her Government wants to do in the last session 
of this Parliament before a General Election. The leader of the Liberal 
Democrats Paddy Ashdown has his own Queen's speech - and a lot more radical it 
is than the Tories'.  It will probably go a lot further than the Labour Party 
is prepared to go, too.  So what makes Mr Ashdown think THAT will appeal to the 
voters ... and where does it leave his Party after the election? 
 
                                       Mr Ashdown, Good Morning..afternoon.  I 
take it you accept that you are now the most radical Party in British politics. 
 
PADDY ASHDOWN:                         I've never been very attached to names, 
but radical isn't one that I object to.  What I know is that the Liberal 
Democrats stand today where they've always stood.  We haven't had to wonder the 
highways and byways because the things we believe in have proved to be 
irrelevant and a mistake. I mean Labour seems to have admitted this eighty year 
old mistake of Socialism and trying to find new ideas, the Tories have 
abandoned Thatcherism.  The Lib Dems stand four-square, exactly where we've 
always been and that's why in a period of change, this is a fixed point that 
people can rely on and I'm proud of that.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Obviously you wouldn't deny the radical 
word there. I wonder whether you realise how radical people might think you are 
when they look at your policies.  I mean education for instance, an extra two 
billion pounds every year to be spent there and you're prepared to do that, 
you've said you'll do that, you'll raise taxes to do it.  
 
ASHDOWN:                               We'll raise taxes is that's the only way 
to find it. I'm not interested in raising people's taxes if it's not necessary 
but this is so important for our county that we begin to invest in our 
education system. Jim Callaghan speaking the other day said exactly the same, 
the fact that Labour aren't prepared to say where they'll find the money from, 
indeed Labour wouldn't even be prepared to put forward an alternative Queen's 
Speech. You couldn't have this discussion with a Labour politician, they aren't 
prepared to say what their alternatives are. The fact that they don't make what 
they're going to do clear does not mean to say that we shouldn't and yes we are 
prepared to stake out our position very clearly and, above all, we're prepared 
to say if this is a promise, there's the bill, that's how we'll pay for it and 
that's how much it will cost.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              And there can't be much doubt that you 
would have to raise taxes to do that. 
 
ASHDOWN:                               Well that depends. I mean that's a 
judgement that has to be made at the time of the Budget, at the time of the 
next Election. I can't predict what their outcome will be but certainly with 
public borrowing as high as it is I mean John Major's now doubled the national 
debt which has been going since 1680 something in six years and in the light of 
that tax cuts would be simply irresponsible.  Don't accept my word for it, take 
the word of the CBI, the Institute of Directors, almost every responsible 
commentator believes that with Government borrowing now massively higher than 
the Government predicted it would be two years ago the scope for tax cuts is 
very small.  And we believe that if it's necessary to put that money into 
education to raise our taxes, we're prepared to do exactly that.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Pollution, the environment. You're 
prepared to say to us you'd have to pay more to drive your cars, if you're 
going to use them a lot.  
 
ASHDOWN:                               There's only one way that you can get 
more efficiency and that is to be prepared to ensure that the real cost of 
motoring is paid for, now what does that mean. It means that you are prepared 
to go in for road pricing in inner cities to reduce congestion, most sensible 
people believe that's a good idea. And that we think it's necessary to 
encourage smaller cars so we'll alter the vehicle execise duty so as to 
encourage people to have smaller cars and discourage them to have larger ones. 
The consequence of that - well the consequence of that is that if you were to 
raise petrol prices slightly, of the order of one or two p then you would be 
actually rather better off on the average motoring mileage of let's say ten 
thousand miles a year if you had a samller car than you are at present. So I 
don't think there's a huge cost involved in that but there is a genuine 
incentive, a tough incentive to try and move towards a more efficient transport 
system in this country.  
                                                                    
HUMPHRYS:                              And as far as Europe is concerned you're 
the only Party who's saying: we want to go into a Single Currency in the first 
wave - when it happens  - if it happens.  
 
ASHDOWN:                               We're quite clear, I've never heard 
anybody argue a convincing case for the contrary. If a Single Currency is 
formed and Britain can be part of it, Britain should be part of it. We're also 
the only Party to be absolutely clear that we can't take further steps down the 
line of integration in Europe without asking the British people to give their 
consent in a referendum.  So this case has to be argued before the British 
people and we're the only Parliament - the only Party in Parliament that is 
absolutely clear about the necessity to carry the British people with us in any 
further steps of integration in Europe. We'd be arguing in favour that... 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Because you've said holding a referendum 
is a substitute for holding an opinion, you have an opinion and that is what 
you would argue. 
 
ASHDOWN:                               Correct. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Constitutional Reform - pretty radical 
on that too, abolish the Royal prerogative, Parliaments for Wales as well as 
Scotland, an elected House of Lords and so on.  
 
ASHDOWN:                               We have to clean up the mess of our 
politics, politics is failing in this country. Unless you are prepared to 
modernise Britain's constitution you're not going to be able to have an 
effective political system in the future, we're absolutely clear about that.   
 
HUMPHRYS:                              So and there are more radical policies 
as well that you have in mind and what I would like to suggest to you is that 
there is a real likelihood that disaffected Tory voters who are in the sorts of 
constituencies that you're targeting, that you have to target to get the kind 
of success that you want may well be put off by that radicalism. 
 
ASHDOWN:                               A proposition John, not a very..not one 
that convinces given that we've just had two Tory MPs join us. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              MPs. 
 
ASHDOWN:                               We've just had two Conservative Members 
of Parliament.. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Indeed you have. 
 
ASHDOWN:                               ....join the Party. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Indeed you have but I'm not talking 
about MPs I'm talking about voters. 
 
ASHDOWN:                               Well I make the assumption that Tory MPs 
represent many Tory voters fed up to the back teeth with this Government. I 
mean take Peter Thurnham, he's been a life long Tory, he has fought hard for 
the Tory cause, he's watched his Party part company with what he believes in, 
he watched it part company with decent values that the Tories used to 
represent, the decent values of our country. He's looked at the other two 
parties, looked at them in conference and decided to join the Liberal 
Democrats. I suspect that's a clear idea of how many tens of hundreds of 
thousands of Tories who feel the same way are now thinking about the Liberal 
Democrats.  I mean look, the proposition you're trying to make and I understand 
what you're trying to do and I recognise it's a prefectly sensible proposition 
to put forward and let me see whether I can answer it. Your proposition is that 
somehow or another we are this wildly radical Party that is about to do 
things.. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              ...use the word wildly. 
 
ASHDOWN:                               That's the tone, that's the tenor of 
your interview and it's... 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              More radical than the others is what I'm 
saying. 
 
ASHDOWN:                               That we'll frighten people off. Well now 
let's have a look at that proposition. We now have control four times as many 
councils as the Conservatives do. We have more councillors than the 
Conservatives have, that's in the last two years. What's more you see that 
where the Liberal Democrats are in Government, unlike Labour where people have 
the benefits of the Liberal Democrat Government at local council levels, it's 
the same Party with the same values and the same policies where they have them 
they want more of them and that's why they elect us in with larger and larger 
majorities.   
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Well.  
 
ASHDOWN:                               Now, let me if I may just finish this. 
The conclusion you reach from that is far from those wild eyed radical party 
putting forward propositions that people don't like or are scared of. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              ...that I haven't offered you.   
 
ASHDOWN:                               People see us as a prefectly commonsense 
solution to Britain's problems and where they see Liberal Democrat Government 
in action they don't see a radical Left-wing Party of the sort that you see 
with Labour. Why do you think it is that people have voted Liberal Demcrats in 
to control Lambeth, because they know that what we deliver there and what we 
deliver and practice elsewhere across the country is good, solid, practical, 
commonsense, down to earth, cost effective policies and I suspect what they see 
us deliver locally they'd like to see us also do nationally. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Well, that, you can't actually prove 
that proposition of course can you?   There's loads of evidence to the 
contrary.  I mean take an area like Richmond, a constituency like Richmond.  In 
local politics they love you, it seems.  They don't elect you to Parliament. 
 
ASHDOWN:                               Well, there is no single one of my 
colleagues, no single one of them elected since I was elected that hasn't first 
been elected by building the base of local government level, so what you see at 
Richmond and what you see elsewhere is the basis for the Party's attempts to 
get elected to Parliament next time. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              And I would look for that rather than 
looking at the crystal ball. 
 
ASHDOWN:                               Then read the book, read the book and 
see the Party in practice, where it governs.  Now do you see a Left-wing Party, 
do you see a radical party that frightens people off.  No, you see a Party 
famous for practical commonsense, down to earth ... 
                                                                 
HUMPHRYS:                              But I don't see a Parliament stuffed 
with Liberal Democrat MPs. 
 
ASHDOWN:                               Well, you now see a larger Parliamentary 
Party in the name of the Liberal Democrats. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Of course with defections as you 
yourself have pointed out. 
 
ASHDOWN:                               No, because of Elections and 
by-Elections.  I mean we now have the largest Parliamentary... we're now the 
strongest third force this country has seen for more than sixty years.  We've 
beaten the Tories into third position in local government.  We have the largest 
Parliamentary Party we've had for half a century and more, and we have made the 
breakthrough into Europe.  By any standards that's the success rate of a Party 
that is making the point to people in Britain that they're rather convinced 
about and like to see more of. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Well, let me to put to you why you're
radicalism, and I don't use the adjectives that you applied - wild-eyed or any 
of the sort.  I merely make the point that you are more radical than the others 
and let me put to you a couple of reasons.... 
 
ASHDOWN:                               We're more honest, more straightforward. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Fine, if that's how you want to describe 
it, but you'd accepted that you're more radical than the others, so let's 
pursue that thought. 
 
ASHDOWN:                               We're clear about what we want to do. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Right, Okay. 
 
ASHDOWN:                               John, I want to make this clear to you.  
I mean - I'm, let me just make this clear to you.   I don't intend to involve 
my Party in the politics of the spin doctor and the sound bite, the slickness 
etcetera of presentation.   We want to do things as well as we can do.   
HUMPHRYS:                              And that's why I want to about... 
 
ASHDOWN:                               We intend to stake out clearly what we 
think needs to be done.  We don't intend to run away when the Tories attack us 
like we've seen Labour do.   We intend to stand our ground.  What you see is 
what you get.  Here are our proposals.  We're prepared to say to people in 
Britain that's how much they'll cost, this is where the money comes from, and 
from what I see and our success - we've just finished the most successful year 
in the whole of our history in terms of Elections in local Government 
by-Elections, European Elections - the more people see of that the more they 
rather find it a refreshing alternative and want more of it. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Right.  Well, as you say, you're telling 
people what they're going to get and what it's going to cost them.  Let's look 
at education in the ... we mentioned education and you accepted that you are 
prepared if it comes to it and it is likely to come to it, that you - some 
would say that you will put that penny in the pound on tax.   Now have you 
worked out how much that would cost the average family. 
 
ASHDOWN:                               Yes. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              How much? 
 
ASHDOWN:                               Well, this is going to get complex, but 
you'll have to.... 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Well, it needn't. 
 
ASHDOWN:                               Well, the answer is about thirty quid a 
year. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Thirty pounds a year? 
 
ASHDOWN:                               Thirty pounds a year. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Well, that's not the figure that I came 
up with, with a few fairly simple back of the envelope calculations it comes to 
about twelve pounds a month. 
 
ASHDOWN:                               Give us your figures and where do you 
get them from? 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              From loads of sources, but let's use the 
commonsense source, and that is we earn nineteen-twenty thousand pounds a year 
average family income, pay about fourteen thousand pounds a year tax on that, 
an extra penny in the pound works out at fourteen quid a month. 
 
ASHDOWN:                               John, you, I'm afraid, have been 
swallowing the propaganda put out by the Conservatives... 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              No propaganda.  I didn't ask anybody to 
give me that figure, I used my own commonsense.  
 
ASHDOWN:                               You've asked me a question and I'll give 
you the answer.  The Conservative figures which come out at twelve pounds a 
month have been very carefully manipulated. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              I didn't take that I promise you. 
 
ASHDOWN:                               They happened to arrive at the same 
solution and I would just caution you.  I mean most of the people are rather 
more discerning than accepting the Conservative figures.  What the 
Conservatives have done and they come out with twelve pounds a month, is to 
base this on average male earnings, but that's not a reasonable way of 
calculating this.  What we should be doing is basing it on the average 
taxpayer.  Now the average taxpayer, if you put a penny on income tax, would 
cost about seventy pounds a years, that approximate - six pounds fifty a month 
approximately - let's call it seventy pounds a year.  But of course we make 
proposals to raise the tax on those of - earning more than a hundred thousand 
pounds to fifty per cent, and raising the threshold to take 
seven-hundred-and-fifty thousand people out of tax, and that would raise the 
threshold for everybody.   Ninety-nine point five per cent of all taxpayers 
would benefit from that proposal, and the benefit incidentally is forty quid.  
Now forty quid from seventy leaves you with thirty.  That's why the average 
taxpayer, not the average male earner, but the average taxpayer will pay about 
thrity-five pounds a year extra to give our children a future.  I'm quite happy 
to ask people to do that, and I suspect most people are quite prepared to do 
it. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Alright, but let's not leave my figure 
for a moment.  Some might say .... 
 
ASHDOWN:                               Well, you borrowed some Conservatives 
and I just want to point out to you you're wrong. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              No, no, I promise I did not borrow that 
from the Conservatives. 
 
ASHDOWN:                               Well, they arrived at the same figures. 
You should be a bit more discerning. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              In that case we used the same 
calculator, that's all.  I sat down yesterday afternoon, worked out on the 
calculator..... 
 
ASHDOWN:                               But you started from male average 
earnings, so if you start from the wrong position you're going to end in the 
wrong position, and you should be a little bit more discerning than that. 
 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Well, I'll tell you what then.  Let's 
not use this word average just for the moment, because you are targeting a 
certain group of voters in certain constituencies who you accept that you'll 
need if you're going to make inroads, otherwise you wouldn't be targeting those 
areas putting your effort into it, and they are by definition, disaffected 
Tories.  Now again, by definition, they earn rather more, so if I'd used a 
different method of calculating I could have come up with a much higher figure 
than twelve pounds.  That's your problem, and people are going to make these - 
do these calculations for themselves. 
 
ASHDOWN:                               If I may say to you gently I think your 
question reveals all that is wrong with our politics, and I say to you, I'm 
sure you do it perfectly correctly, perfectly sincerely - you see what you're 
saying to us is that we ought to be looking at our opinion polls to formulate 
our policies.   
 
HUMPHRYS:                              On the contrary.  
ASHDOWN:                               These are the people we're appealing to 
in our target seats etcetera.  Look, if you want a Party that's run by what the 
target group of voters will say and they change their polices according to 
that, choose Labour, choose the Conservatives, do anything you like, but don't 
vote for the Liberal Democrats, because we intend to say we think this is 
right.  We don't look at the opinion polls first.  You may argue that these are 
the group of voters that we want to appeal to, but we will still say what we 
believe to be correct, and what is correct is that we're prepared to invest in 
education. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              You seem to be saying exactly what I was 
suggesting to you, which is you are perfectly prepared as a straightforward, 
honest politician, to say, "Ladies and Gentlemen, those are my policies, if 
you're not terribly keen on them so be it". That's all I'm suggesting to you.  
 
ASHDOWN:                               That is exactly what I'm saying. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Well fine - we have no quarrel do we.  
 
ASHDOWN:                               And let me tell you that precisely in 
those constituencies time and again Liberal Democrat seats have been won both 
at local Government level and in by-Elections, and I believe that's where our 
votes stand, so I see the assumption behind your questioning approach is that 
somehow or another people don't understand... 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Not at all. On the contrary I'm 
suggesting they will understand. 
 
ASHDOWN:                               ...and they're not prepared to vote for 
it.  Neither of those three propositions I think, stand up. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Alright, Well, let's accept your ... I 
would regard it as an admission.  You will say this has always been my 
position, and indeed it has,  but let me tell me why that may cause you a 
problem. 
 
ASHDOWN:                               People in this country want a political 
Party that's prepared to say: Here we stand, that's what we believe to be 
right, this is how much it costs.  Labour and the Tories will not provide that, 
it's all slickness and sound bites and spin doctors.  We're going to - let's 
wait and see whether the British public welcome that and want to vote for it or 
not.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Alright.  So, let's look, then, at those 
Conservatives, whom you're anxious to trap.  Now your problem this time, in 
this election, is that in past elections they may have.. 
 
ASHDOWN:                               Here you go - the opinion polls, again - 
here you go. Here you go.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              You, really-I haven't mentioned an 
opinion poll.  You really must let me finish the question before you start 
attacking the premise of it.  Of course they will make up their minds!  And, 
what I am suggesting to you is that when they come to make up their minds, they 
may feel, now, we've got a different kind of Labour Party this time.  A party, 
which by your own admission is not as "dangerous' - in quotes - as the old 
Labour Party used to be.  So, in a sense, you've been hoist by your own petard, 
because they may well say this time: well, look, old Paddy's            
Party is a bit- forgive the old Paddy - young Paddy's Party is a bit radical. 
So, we'll go to safer Labour - that's what I'm suggesting to you.  
 
ASHDOWN:                               Well, let me requote a phrase straight 
back to you: why look in the crystal ball, when you can look in the book?  I 
mean, did they do this in the May Elections?  No, we had the most successful 
May Elections ever.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Local Elections - Local Elections.  
                                                                              
ASHDOWN:                               Ah, well, John, I'm awfully sorry you 
made - 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              You made a difference between Local 
Elections and National Elections... 
 
ASHDOWN:                               I don't doubt that for a second but 
during the Local Elections I was being continually being asked by you about 
whether or not this was an indicator for the national polls, and of course, it 
is.  This is the last time the public voted.  Did you see then - the Liberal 
Democrats - being swamped by Labour?  No.  Labour's national share of the vote 
went down - the Liberal Democrats share of the vote went down.  So, I don't 
understand why you're looking in the crystal ball and dealing with hypothesis 
when you've got facts in front of you.  And, the facts are that despite all 
your suggestions to the contrary, people like a party that stands its ground, 
they like a party that's prepared to say exactly where it stands and they like 
a party that's prepared to put forward some positive alternatives and doesn't 
duck the issues.   
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Right.  I mentioned your .. speech... 
 
ASHDOWN:                               And, what is more they're voting for us 
more and more, and more. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Right.   
 
ASHDOWN:                               Otherwise, we could not have won the 
three by-elections out of five that have been in this Parliament from the 
Tories.  Otherwise, we couldn't have had our most successful year ever in Local 
Government.  Otherwise, we wouldn't have broken through to Europe, or had the 
largest Parliamentary Party we've ever had.     
 
HUMPHRYS:                              You have been - you've- 
 
ASHDOWN:                               So, it's a good theory but it doesn't 
stand up in practice.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Alright.  You've been very honest.  So, 
let me ask you to be honest again in reply to this question which is: what are 
you going to do with the influence that you believe you will acquire as a 
result of this next election?  You have acknowledged that a Hung Parliament is 
unlikely.  So, what are you going to do with that influence?   
 
ASHDOWN:                               Put that into practice. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              But, you're not in power.  
 
ASHDOWN:                               Well, the more power we have the more 
it'll be likely that we do.   
 
HUMPHRYS:                              How?  Why? 
 
ASHDOWN:                               Because, John, if you have power in 
Parliament, you are able to put your proposals into practice.   
 
HUMPHRYS:                              But we have a first past the post 
system? 
 
ASHDOWN:                               Do you know the outcome of the next 
Election? 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              No, of course I don't, but you've 
already told me it's unlikely to be a Hung Parliament.  So, I'm making that 
assumption based on your own good commonsense and, therefore saying: you can't 
put that into - but what you can do is you can choose - if I may suggest this 
to you - you can choose certain issues where you will bring your influence to 
bear.   
 
ASHDOWN:                               These are the issues.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Fine - right.  
 
                                       Well, now, there is an issue in front of 
us at the moment, isn't there?  And that's gun control.  It's one of those 
issues where the Parties themselves are divided, where the way you vote could 
swing it.  What are you going to do?  Are you going to support the Labour 
Party, or are you going to support the Tory - the Government's - view? 
 
ASHDOWN:                               We're going to support a sensible 
conclusion. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Which is what? 
 
ASHDOWN:                               Well, let me be absolutely blunt with 
you.  I mean, I don't think Parliament has covered itself with much credit over 
this.  We've asked a very, very highly respected judge, who produced probably 
what has become the handbook of post the Piper Alpha for the offshore oil 
industry in its last report - to produce a report.  Even before he produced it, 
the Labour Party had taken its position, which ignored that report.  The 
Tories, it appears, even before it had come out had decided what they were 
going to do.  We're not going to follow that.  It's important that we come to a 
conclusion on legislation which is very, very important, which can carry the 
majority in this country and which is sensible.   
 
                                       I'll be blunt with you.  My heart says 
we should ban handguns altogether.  My head says I'm not sure that's the right 
solution.  I'm looking at the Cullen Report.  So are my colleagues.  We'll 
discuss this on Tuesday and we'll reach a rational decision.  I've been greatly 
influenced in this by where public opinion stands.  It appears to be 
overwhelmingly in favour of a total handgun ban; by the position of the Police. 
But, I'm not prepared lightly to throw away a report of such importance, on 
such a difficult issue, without proper and careful consideration.   
 
HUMPHRYS:                              So, might you- 
 
ASHDOWN:                               Now, it may well be.  It may well be 
that the Labour Party will play party politics with this as I think they have, 
and the Tories will do so too.  I don't intend to do that.  I think the people 
of Dunblane and I think this issue requires just a bit more thought.  And, so, 
I'll discuss this with my colleagues - each of whom is reading that Cullen 
report this weekend - and we'll make a rational decision, then.... 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              So might you back Cullen against the 
Government's recommendations then? Might you say what Cullen has proposed is 
what we- 
 
ASHDOWN:                               That's perfectly possible.  I said I was 
making up - we were making up our minds on this issue.  It's a very serious 
report.  It's a very big report.  It's an issue that requires just a bit more 
than a populous gut reaction of the sort.  Now, the people of Dunblane have 
argued their case with immense courage and with dignity and that's been very, 
very impressive.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Well, we know what they want - total ban 
on handguns.   
 
ASHDOWN:                               Yes, they do.  And I said to you: my 
heart is in favour, my head asks questions about it and I'm going to have to 
make up my mind between the two.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              You're a long time thinking about this, 
now.  
 
ASHDOWN:                               John, this is a very, very big report.  
It was published last Thursday.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              No, but we know that when that 
dreadful... 
 
ASHDOWN:                               Yes, but all of us have been saying: 
wait for Cullen, and I intend to do that and look at Cullen.  It would be quite 
irrational.  I mean, Labour and Tories may do it but I think it's indicative of 
the kind of policies they've got themselves into.  Each of them are really 
concerned with one thing and one thing only.  How do they get one up on the 
other?  At the moment, there are issues that need just a bit more thought and 
we're giving a lot of thought to this and we will decide on Tuesday in a 
rational and cogent way.  And, I'm proud of that approach, not the approach 
that's being taken by the others.  That's I think the kind of quality that our 
Party can bring.  And, incidentally, at a time of change in this country - I 
think, most people think there is going to be change - it's one of the reasons 
why the Liberal Democrats can bring certainty - and safeguards people's future 
through that process of change.   
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Right.  How else might you use your 
influence?   
 
ASHDOWN:                               Well, let me tell you what I think.  
We're coming on to a very, bitter winter in this country.  I think, we've got a 
Government that's run out of steam.  I think we've a Government that's divided; 
I think, we've got a Prime Minister that can no longer lead - nice man though 
he is, I think his leadership skills are inadequate to cope with the future.  I 
think that we have a National Health Service that's coming into crisis.  The 
farming industry is in crisis over BSE and the bungling issue of the 
Government's handling of that.  I want this Govenment out, and in the next two 
or three months I will leave no stone unturned to make sure that we have the 
Election this country needs, and this Government, for its own sake and for the 
sake of the country gets removed.   
 
HUMPHRYS:                              That's more to do with Tony Blair than 
with you.  
 
ASHDOWN:                               Well, I'll be interested to see what 
Labour's attitude to this is. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Are you disappointed with the way Mr 
Blair has behaved over this?     
 
ASHDOWN:                               I'm - I'm - No, I'm not disappointed.  I 
hope that Labour will understand that it is absolutely important that all of us 
- Labour, the Liberal Democrats and others - the Irish Parties as well are 
prepared to work to remove this Government from power as quickly as possible.  
They're doing themselves no good but above all they're doing the country no 
good and I see no purpose whatsoever, in us waiting for another six or seven 
months for the Prime Minister to call an election on May the first, when what 
this country needs is a fresh Government and a fresh chance now.  And we will 
leave no stone unturned.  We will work with anybody to ensure that this 
Government is now removed before it does more damage in the winter ahead.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Paddy Ashdown thank you very much 
indeed.