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ON THE RECORD
MARGARET BECKETT INTERVIEW
RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION: BBC ONE DATE: 23.5.99
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JOHN HUMPHRYS: But first, the European elections are almost
upon us, though it's fair to say most people are managing to contain their excitement at the
present. But these elections do matter both because the European parliament has more power
than it once did and because there is a clear divide between the main parties. Labour's problem
is that it wants to go further in the direction of Brussels than the polls suggest most of us
want to travel. Margaret Beckett is the Minister in charge of Labour's election campaign and she's in our Derby studio.
Good afternoon, Mrs Beckett.
MARGARET BECKETT MP: Hello.
HUMPHRYS: Does it worry you that you�re coming across as
rather too pro-European for the British public�s taste?
BECKETT: Well I don�t think that�s true actually. I hope
and�what we�re coming across as is the party that actually can be relied on to do the best
possible job defending Britain�s interests in a European Union, of which the British people
have chosen to be part. And that�s what I would hope and I think that�s what most people in
Britain do actually think - we can be trusted to do the business for them.
HUMPHRYS: But you seem to be defining Britain�s interest as
transferring more power from Britain, putting it crudely, from Britain to Brussels.
BECKETT: No, we don�t define it in that way at all. We
define Britain�s interests as getting - as all our continental partners do - as getting the best
possible deal for the United Kingdom within a framework of gradually increasing co-operation
over the years. I think the phrase that people use nowadays is that integration where
necessary, but de-centralisation wherever possible. Everything that can be done in the nation
state should be done in the nation state.
HUMPHRYS: We know about the extra integration that you
want, specifically the Euro, the Single European currency. It�s not quite clear what you want
to give up, is it, where you want� what you want to take back, where you want to
de-centralise.
BECKETT: No, I don�t think that�s true. I mean we�ve
undertaken an important path to de-centralisation here in Britain with devolution to Scotland
and toWales.
HUMPHRYS: That�s not from Brussels though.
BECKETT: � an increasing role for the English reasons - no
that�s right but it�s part of giving power from the centre and as for the Single Currency, again I
think most people will think our stance is sensible because we�re saying it�s a project that has
gone ahead. It�s a project that it may well be sensible for Britain to be in, but at the moment
our economy is too far apart from that of the other member states who are in the Euro and so
what we have to do is to work to get the right pattern so that we can go in, if we should chose.
But of course the decision is not our decision, it is a decision for the British people and when
the time comes they are the people who will make it.
HUMPHRYS: A few mays and ifs in that answer. The reality is
that as far as Mr Blair is concerned, as far as your party leadership is concerned, the intention
and I quote �the intention is real - the support in principle�we had declared our support in
principle, the intention is real.� That�s what Mr Blair says.
BECKETT: I think we�ve struck the right balance. We�re
saying that in principle we don�t have these principled objections that say never - you must
never join the Single Currency. We don�t say you should rush in immediately because that
could damage our economy, which is what the Liberals say. What we say is yes, it would be
right to join, but if you like, when it is right to join, when the economic conditions are right
and those economic conditions are real, and they�re important. What I think makes no sense
at all, is to say what the Conservatives are saying, which is not never, which would at least be
logical, even though you might think it�s wrong, but well not for ten years, even if it is in our
national interest. Now, that seems to me to make no sense at all and it�s quite clear it makes
no sense to most people in the business community either.
HUMPHRYS: So you do want to give up the pound.
BECKETT: It�s not a matter of giving up the pound, it�s a
matter of entering a Single Currency when the economic conditions are right that could give
considerable advantages to British business and could therefore help us to get more growth and
to get more jobs which is why most people joined in the first place.
HUMPHRYS: I remember you used to say if. It�s when now
isn�t it.
BECKETT: Well yes it is because I used to say if, what
nearly twenty-five years ago.
HUMPHRYS: �you used to say no. Not just if.
BECKETT: But that was twenty-five years ago and the
British people said yes. We�ve been in there for a long time, one of the things that we have
not always done in Britain is to fight our own corner effectively as well as determinedly.
That�s what the Labour Government is doing. That�s why for example we managed to get the
beef ban lifted. It�s why we have managed to make some steps forward, although not as many
as we�d like and we will go on pushing on reform of the Common Agricultural Policy. But we
are determined to be effective advocates for Britain�s national interests and I think we are
showing that we are.
HUMPHRYS: And it�s more than just when isn�t it. It�s
actually soon because you are making the preparations for a referendum to be held early in the
next parliament, so we�re only talking about two or three years away maybe.
BECKETT: Well the preparations for the referendum in a
sense are perhaps almost the least important part of it. Part of the problem that we have at
the moment is that there are a lot of technical and practical preparations that people in the
business community in particular need to make and that hadn�t been begun until we came to
power and so, as a matter of fact, even if the economic conditions were met, which they�re
not at the present, we actually are not in a position to join at the moment. And our view is
that we have to prepare so that we could join if we thought it was right and then when the
time comes we can decide whether or not we want to go in, which again is a decision for the
British people.
HUMPHRYS: Hang on. We�re back to if again - an if crept in
there again. But nonetheless what he is saying, very clear about this. Early in the next
Parliament, this referendum is going to happen early in the next Parliament so we�re very
close to it.
BECKETT: Well it could be early in the next Parliament. It
depends when the economic conditions are met. We�re not saying anything different you
know from what we�ve been saying for quite some time.
HUMPHRYS: I�m trying to clarify what you are saying because
we do get..
BECKETT: We�re saying when the economic conditions are
met, the government will come to a view, Parliament will come to a view, and then the British
people will be asked to come to a view. But not until the economic conditions are right and
it�s in Britain�s interest to join.
HUMPHRYS: But the referendum will - or may - be held early
in the next Parliament, or the middle or late in the next Parliament.
BECKETT: It could be.
HUMPHRYS: It might not be until the following Parliament, it
might be in the next Parliament at all then - might it.
BECKETT: It depends on when the economic conditions are
met. I think everyone who is working on this matter hopes that the economic conditions can
be met so that we can make a decision perhaps fairly early in the next Parliament but it is too
soon to know. Nobody is being evasive, you are asking me to give you an answer as to what
the time scale will be when no-one can give you that answer because we don�t know how long
it will take to meet those economic conditions.
HUMPHRYS: No I just wanted you to confirm as you have
done as I understand it that it is possible that there will not be a referendum in the next
Parliament assuming of course that you�re in power then, that there will not be a referendum
in the next Parliament, it mightn�t be until the one after that so we could be seven, eight, nine
years away.
BECKETT: It�s not impossible, I think it�s unlikely because
people are working to try and get the right economic conditions and because I suspect that as
time goes on, more and more people in the business community looking at the impact on jobs,
especially as the Single Currency really kind of takes off, I think more and more people may
start to say that this is something that we need to be in because it is damaging our interest not
to be in it, but your really cannot tell, it�s a matter of when the conditions are right.
HUMPHRYS: Yes but you see, I remember Gordon Brown
saying often as you will have heard as well, let�s see how the thing beds down, you know,
once it�s up and running, that�s going to change all our attitudes towards it, we�ll see what
happens, and it�s not just a matter of us, it�s a matter of them, and whether it looks as if it�s
working and all that, and then, and then, in the next Parliament, that�s what they used to say,
in the next Parliament, we�ll have a referendum, now it�s sort of slipping away a bit isn�t it,
it�s maybe in the Parliament after that.
BECKETT: No I don�t think so, I think all that�s happening
is that people are trying to speculate about what the date could be. I mean, our position is
absolutely clear; it is that we think it is in Britain�s long term interest to join, we think that
that will only be when the economic conditions are right and the conditions Gordon Brown
has set are met and we can�t at the moment predict just when that will be. But I repeat, that
is at least a sensible position, it�s very different from the position being taken by any of the
other parties, one of which wants us to go in immediately, no matter what harm it does, and
the Conservatives, I mean, I don�t know what they stand for, because their MEP�s, who after
all are the people who will be exercising that power in the new European Parliament, they�ve
signed up to a manifesto that says that the Single Currency is the foundation stone of Europe
and something on which we must build and develop in the future and William Hague is telling
us that he is not going in for what?�seven years, ten years?
HUMPHRYS: Which of course, could be precisely the same as
you couldn�t it, because if I could characterise your approach, your position, as of this
morning, it is caution, extreme caution, we�re on a sort of amber light, only it�s amber with red
rather than amber with green.
BECKETT: No, it�s quite simply that when the conditions
are right we think it�s in Britain�s interest to go in, William Hague is saying, even if it is in
Britain�s economic interests to go in, he�s not going to go in for some arbitrary period of years,
that seems to me to make no sense whatsoever.
HUMPHRYS: On the wider European economic position,
because it�s not just the Euro of course, is it, the European Socialist Manifesto which of
course you, Robin Cook wrote with somebody else from Europe wants and I quote �closer
economic co-operation� not just co-ordination, not just a single currency we are talking about
here now is it, it�s closer economic co-ordination across many areas.
BECKETT: Well, actually, there�s again a very common sense
argument for that, I mean, everybody resents the fact that there are other member states who
give particular tax breaks, say, to people in their community and British business can�t fight
on a level playing field, despite the single market. It was a Tory government after all who
signed us up to the single market and to make a single market work you�ve got to have a
certain amount of common ground, now, that doesn�t mean everything being the same, I mean
again, we are not signing up to uniformity, but certainly it does argue for there being a sensible
sort of band of policy approach.
HUMPHRYS: And that band would include things as we read in
the Daily Mail, the lead story in the Mail on Sunday, rather this morning you are prepared to
transfer more tax powers to Europe, they said specifically they quoted the findings of the
Committee that had been chaired by one of your own ministers which talked about the power
to set one hundred different taxes, it might end up with Europe instead of with our lot.
BECKETT: Yes, I know about that Mail story. I am afraid
that you know there is something wrong with a story, when it talks about a committee being
secret that actually you have been boasting about and trying to get publicity for because we
actually think it�s a great compliment, it�s chaired by a British Minister for at least a year. As
for the conclusions of the Committee, the Committee hasn�t even reached conclusions. It has
even reported yet��
HUMPHRYS: �.Well this is the agenda it�s working on, isn�t
it.
BECKETT: Well no, I doubt it very much.
HUMPHRYS: And if it�s secret you wouldn�t know would you.
BECKETT: But it�s not secret, I have just pointed that out to
you. You know,,,,,,,,
HUMPHRYS: Well, not any longer.
BECKETT: You know that a story that talks about a secret
committee which you�ve actually been trying to get publicity for is starting on, shall we say, a
not very sound ground, and the committee is not even due to report until the end of the year,
but what that committee is working on is exactly what you were talking about a moment ago.
It�s saying, is there a degree of sensible co-operation or co-ordination, but also, in the Vienna
Summit, all the leaders of the European Union said that we are not talking about tax
harmonisation, same tax rates and so on, there is nothing wrong with fair tax competition and
that�s something that we all want to see.
HUMPHRYS: Well, that�s interesting isn�t it because what your
Manifesto talks about is better policy co-ordination to prevent harmful tax competition in the
form of unfair tax breaks in some cities, that might very well encompass therefore handing
these hundred different tax decisions across all sorts of areas over to Brussels, either get rid of
some of that harmful tax competition would �t it.
BECKETT: John, you and many other people have known
and interviewed Gordon Brown for many years. Gordon is not a man to start giving away
powers, particularly over taxation, and we�re not talking, no-one in Europe at all, is talking
about the kind of uniform tax system that the Mail on Sunday is saying. What they are
talking about is the fact that yes, there are, some unfair tax breaks, there is some unfair tax
competition. And it�s harming British companies, so it�s in our interest to see if we can get
agreement to move away from where there is unfair competition, but obviously, fair tax
competition is something that might help us.
HUMPHRYS: Now, whether or not you can persuade the
voters of all of that in this election is one thing. Whether you can get your core vote in the
Labour Party out to vote for you in the European elections is quite another. You don�t need
me to remind you of what happened in the local and the Welsh and Scottish Elections. And
Peter Hain who ran your campaign in Wales said, �Our message has been to the middle
England Daily Mail vote, not to the Daily Mirror vote, our traditional supporters�. So you�ve
got a problem here because even Peter Hain sees that you�re appealing not to your traditional
supporters in the Labour Party, who you�d expect to come out and vote for you under normal
circumstances, but to another group of people altogether.
BECKETT: No, what we�re trying to do in Europe as we do
at home in Britain is to work in the interests of everybody in the country, everybody in the
different areas of the community, and what we are saying very clearly is that as you said at
the outset, these are important elections. The powers that will be exercised by the European
parliament are important powers. It really matters that we have good and effective people in
the European parliament who�ll work in partnership with a Labour Government as they did
for example, our MEPs were an enormous help when we were undertaking the recent
negotiations on the structural funds, which mean that we�ve got an excellent deal, for example
for Cornwall, for the first time ever as well as for Scotland and for Wales, and we are - we need
the right partners to work with to get the best deal for Britain, and that�s why it�s so
important. I mean it�s actually going to be a very, very simple electoral system. All people
need to do is to go along, put their one cross for the team that they support, for the Labour
team we hope they will, for effective representation in the European parliament, and so we
hope that people will go. But we all recognise that not everybody gets excited about the
European elections, but we�ll try and make so.
HUMPHRYS: They may vote, as often they do in these
elections on other things as well that are in the back of their minds. I mean they may well be
disillusioned, as indeed sixty-seven of your own back bench MPs were disillusioned with the
way you�re going about things, the Welfare Reform Bill in that particular case. But I mean
they may well be looking ahead to the Asylum Bill, which is causing, if we�re to believe what
we hear, even more concern on your back benches. You might even have an even bigger vote
against that than you had against the Welfare Bill.
BECKETT: Well. We haven�t got to the Asylum Bill. I mean
on the Welfare Bill there�s no doubt that everybody in the Labour Party is strongly in favour
of the extra help that we�re giving, help that the Conservatives never gave to people with the
most severe disabilities, but there are some anxieties about whether we�ve got the balance right
about the relationship between when somebody becomes - has a disability, becomes ill, and
their right to Incapacity Benefit, and how that system will work, and similarly with Asylum,
there are anxieties, but again you know John, you�ve put your finger on another area where
actually it isn�t really we - I mean we are saying yes there can be abuse of asylum procedures
and indeed we know that there is abuse by some criminal gangs, and we are going to try and
get the balance right between giving real help to people who are genuinely in need and at risk,
and stopping people from exploiting our willingness to give that help.
HUMPHRYS: Well of course�..
BECKETT: Now the Conservative MEPs have signed up to a
manifesto that calls for a harmonisation of all laws on immigration and asylum policy across
Europe for an identical policy. I mean we�re not in favour of that, we are determined to have
the right to our own policies, but whatever William Hague may say, his members in the
European parliament have signed up to something completely different.
HUMPHRYS: But I�m more concerned with what your
backbenchers might say at this stage. It seems that you�re going to delay the - you�re the
Leader of the Commons of course - you�re going to delay the vote on that Asylum Bill until
after the European elections aren�t you just in case there�s ��
BECKETT: No, it isn�t a matter of �
HUMPHRYS: ..not sixty-seven but ninety-seven votes against
this time.
BECKETT: It isn�t a matter of delaying the vote. With all
handling of legislation, we�re getting a lot of legislation through the House of Commons�.
HUMPHRYS: But it�s not going to happen before the election is
it?
BECKETT: No, it�s not likely that we will have that
particular discussion next week as it would probably have to be, but we will be having it as
soon as we can, as soon as we think the Bill is in sufficient shape.
HUMPHRYS: At a safe time.
BECKETT: No, it�s important to try and get legislation right.
Nothing does more harm than badly drafted legislation which actually doesn�t give effect to
what the government, any government is trying to do. We�ve done a lot of work on this
subject, we�ve had special committees, taken extra evidence and so on, and we�ve had a lot of
information and input and we need to reflect that in the Bill.
HUMPHRYS: Margaret Beckett, thanks very much indeed for
joining us.
BECKETT: Thank you.
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