................................................................................
ON THE RECORD
CHARLES KENNEDY INTERVIEW
RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-2 DATE: 20.9.98
................................................................................
JOHN HUMPHRYS: Charles Kennedy, at the Liberal
Democrats' conference in Brighton, what do you make of all that? You must be a
little bit worried mustn't you?
CHARLES KENNEDY MP: Well, I think that one of the interesting
things I thought watching, what I felt was a very good and informative film
there, a very balanced account of what's going on inside the Labour Party, is
that a lot of the pre-conference speculation for us inevitably has been what
Liberal Democrats will think about all this, and it's quite useful in a way to
have us reminded that if we think we may have internal problems over what
system, or what the context might be, at least we have something of the luxury
of not having to run the country and command such a huge Parliamentary Labour
Party in trying to solve those issues as well. So in that sense I appreciate
that there are difficulties and divisions within Labour, but at least our
problems insofar as there may be any down the track, I think begin to blur into
some sense of proportion accordingly.
HUMPHRYS: Yes, but on the other hand, they don't
have to have PR. You desperately want it, so you're going to have to keep on
side with the Labour Party aren't you, if you're going to get what you want,
you're going to have to cosy up still more.
KENNEDY: Well, we're going to have to maintain
constructive opposition, and I certainly think that we should, because so far,
and you have to judge people by their actions and not just their words or their
promises, so far since the Election we've seen that the policy of constructive
opposition between Labour and the Lib-Dems has delivered Scottish and Welsh
devolution, PR systems in both of those, PR coming up for the European
Elections, so they've been good to their word up to this point, and I think
it's only reasonable for us to proceed in continuing constructive good faith
with them.
HUMPHRYS: But as that film showed, there are real
problems there. There's an awful lot of persuading still to do. We don't know
which way Mr Blair is going to jump, and there is a danger that you're going
to have to have such a close relationship within this constructive opposition,
is going to have to develop so much more that you are going to be swallowed up.
KENNEDY: I don't see that as being a problem,
because if you think that if we do reach the era of PR, then what it implies
logically is probably more political Parties, not less.
HUMPHRYS: Now, that's if you reach it, and you
haven't got there yet, and it's in the process of getting there, if you are
going to get there that this danger arises.
KENNEDY: Well, I think you see that the lesson of
this Parliament so far - remember Mr Blair's majority in the House of Commons
is three times larger than our total complement of MPs. I mean that's the
scale of the difference between the two Parties, and he also just happens to be
in government as well, and despite that disparity I think that our external
presence has been able to influence the Labour Party on PR, with Scotland,
Wales and Europe as I say, and on other Constitutional issues as well, and
there's no reason, given that we have experience of this, it seems to be
working pretty well, that it can't work in this context as well.
HUMPHRS: Well, it seems to be worrying Paddy
Ashdown, your leader, doesn't it? He says that - he admits that - what is it,
you are so close that you risk being swallowed up, it keeps me awake every
night. Well, if it keeps him awake every night, I'd have thought it was
keeping you awake a bit as well.
KENNEDY: I haven't seen that quotation myself,
but ...
HUMPHRYS: Times on Friday.
KENNEDY: Right, okay. Well I shall be buying
that Murdoch publication more diligently than obviously than I am.
HUMPHRYS: Well, reading it if not buying it.
KENNEDY: I think the point is that of course if
you're in any third Party position, particularly under a first past the post
system of politics, you are forever having to weigh up both the potential that
can come in a Parliamentary sense from co-operating with another Party, and of
course the impact that can have on your own Party. I mean, I've been through
this with the SDP and the Alliance, and now the Liberal-Democrats, so in a
sense the plot is not particularly new. I think it's right that anybody in a
leadership position in the Party should be concerned about the potential
implications of one course of action, whilst also pushing in the best interests
of the Party for the benefits that can flow and are flowing from that.
HUMPHRYS: The problem is this though, isn't it
that you are in danger - according to many people within your own Party as well
- of selling your own soul, of selling the principles, the fine liberal
principles that you have held dear for so very long, to get something which in
the end may not be what you want, may not be genuine Proportional
Representation?
KENNEDY: Well, I think, there's two points. I
don't think that there's any question of the Party selling its principles -
none whatsoever. And, indeed, I think, the point of our conference here in
Brighton this week is about a fresh annunciation of those principles with fresh
more updated policies, looking forward since the last Election and looking
forward, of course, to next year's diet of rather comprehensive elections at
all levels.
HUMPHRYS: Ah, that's what being swallowed means,
doesn't it? Selling your principles, means being-swallowed up by another
Party means you can't hold onto your own principles.
KENNEDY: No. Well, I don't accept that the
principles are being swallowed and, I think, the whole point of the policy
development this week is that it gives us a distinctive base, so that we
shouldn't feel concerned about the future. But, the other point that you made
in your question was, also, of course, concerning systems. Now, it would be
idle for me to speculate about systems, just as difficult as it is for the
Labour MPs you showed in that film to be able to divine what Lord Jenkins is
going to come out with and equally important what Tony Blair and the Government
are going to say by way of response.
All I can say is that my experience in
Scotland was that the Liberal Democrats in Scotland, when we sat down with
Labour and others in the Constitutional convention expressed our proportionate
preference. Labour, at that point, were, in fact, in favour - their starting
point was first past the post - the result was a compromise and there has not
been either the swallowing up of us in Scotland, in fact. If you look at the
state the Labour Party in Scotland, it's been quite the reverse. And, equally,
there is a proper modus vivendi, if you like, as to how these elections will be
conducted. I'm optimistic that you can transplant that type of experience south
of the border as well.
HUMPHRYS: Well, are you really, because there's a
huge difference - there's all the world of difference isn't there? - between an
election for a brand new Parliament in a relatively small country like
Scotland, comparing that with what is likely to happen in England and will
change the entire system of Government, potentially change the entire system of
the country - huge differences. Now, you can't really extrapolate from one to
the other, can you?
KENNEDY: Well, I think, you make a fair point in
so far as with the Scottish and for that matter the Welsh Parliaments - the
Welsh Assembly - you're not dealing with incumbents, you're not dealing with
people who are both one would hope looking at things in terms of the broader
good but no doubt are also considering the implications for them and their
seats. So, that is an important qualification that you enter - I'd acknowledge
that. But, even so, I think, that there is a mood in this Westminster
Parliament for change. There is certainly a comprehensive mood for change in
our Party, there's a very substantial mood for change in the Labour Party which
is the biggest, the only Party that is completely against change of this
nature, obviously, is Mr Hague and his colleagues.
HUMPHRYS: But, the sort of change that may or
or may not go/get through the Labour Party would be one that would still leave
them with the ability to come into power with forty-three per cent of the vote
as they did the last time. Now, that isn't what you've been fighting for all
this time and what you've been risking being swallowed up for, is it?
KENNEDY: Well, you keep saying: risking being
swallowed up. I don't see how that can happen. As I said earlier, if PR is
achieved and I don't see how it will happen -
HUMPHRYS: It depends on the kind of PR?
KENNEDY: -even this side of PR being achieved -
because you're more likely to get PR by a combination of Parties, as indeed has
been the case with the history of Constitutional reform in this country over
the century, than you are by Parties, in fact, somehow amalgamating to achieve
Constitutional change. That would be a perverse thing to do. But, if, in fact
what you want is pluralism and multi-Party politics, you don't want to actually
reduce voter choice by having less political Parties, you want to increase it,
by in fact giving them a better range of candidates and Parties to choose from.
HUMPHRYS: It may well end up just as a matter of a
few extra seats for you, mightn't it? That's not this great principle, is it?
KENNEDY: Well, this all depends what kind of
system Roy Jenkins recommends. What the reaction from the government is. There
are indications in some of the newspapers today, that there may in fact be a
period of some debate and discussion within the Government, within the Labour
Party. I'd be rather surprised if there wasn't. It would be very unhealthy in
some ways if Labour MPs didn't want to debate both what Roy Jenkins says and
what Tony Blair thinks about it. And I suspect, depending on the context and
the actual content of what is produced that there will probably be a discussion
as well within the Liberal Democrats. This is all quite healthy.
HUMPHRYS: Jack Straw didn't sound very positive
this morning did he? What was that thing he had to say: never been a commitment
in the Labour Party to buying a pig in a poke. We're a long way away from
anything, seems to be the message that he was delivering, wasn't it?
KENNEDY: Jack Straw is sounding very cautious but
I hope his caution as the Home Secretary is nonetheless giving the impression
of a constructive attitude towards this. It's crucial that Jack Straw and his
colleagues who are known to be opposed, both to the principle and certainly to
aspects of the practice of PR, are constructive in government with us about
this and not destructive and I think how they respond, 'round the Cabinet
table, will be a very acid test for the Liberal Democrats.
HUMPHRYS: What if Blair does not back electoral
reform in the way that you want him to? Is that the end of constructive
opposition as far as your Party is concerned?
KENNEDY: Well I think that Paddy Ashdown has made
clear all along that once Jenkins reports, assuming it's a system that the
Liberal Democrats feel they could pie into, let's never overlook that, but
assuming it is, then the response of the Prime Minister is key. Now if Tony
Blair is to turn round and say: well very interesting report but I can't accept
it, end of story. Then I think obviously that would be a massive rebuff, not
just for the Liberal Democrats but for Roy Jenkins himself.
HUMPHRYS: End of constructive opposition?
KENNEDY: Well I think it would be very difficult
to see how you could then refashion a continuing relationship when perhaps the
most important aspect of it, which was the fundamental reform of the British
political system, that opportunity had been jettisoned by the Prime Minister
himself.
HUMPHRYS: So a constructive opposition was never a
matter of principle, it was a tactic to get PR, that's all it was?
KENNEDY: No, it certainly was not. It was a
matter of principle which is already delivering an improved political culture
in this country, both in terms of having a Party that can be rigorous in its
opposition to the government where it opposes it, but can co-operative
over constitutional reform. But most importantly for the citizens, for the
voters out there, they will experience, in the course of the next eight months,
improved voting systems and more relevant levels and nature of representation
for their domestic Parliaments in Scotland and Wales and for the Euro
representation. It's principle which is delivering well in practice.
HUMPHRYS: Charles Kennedy, many thanks.
KENNEDY: My pleasure, thank you.
...oooOooo...
|