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ON THE RECORD
RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 8.6.97
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JOHN HUMPHRYS: Good afternoon. The bookies have a new
favourite for the leadership of the Tory Party: Kenneth Clarke. I'll be
asking him why he thinks he's got what it takes to heal the wounds in the
Party. That's after the News read by MOIRA STUART.
NEWS
HUMPHRYS: One hundred and sixty-four Conservative
Members of Parliament will vote on Tuesday for a new Leader of their Party.
There are five candidates and none of them will get enough votes to win
outright then. But it's generally expected that Kenneth Clarke will get more
votes than anyone else. That's because he's on the left of the Party and all
the others are on the right - so their vote will split.
But what about the next round when some
of the other candidates perhaps drop out? Mr Clarke needs to win the support
of THEIR backers. He says he can do it because he alone can unite the Party.
Well Mr Clarke is in our Nottingham studio.
Good afternoon to you.
KENNETH CLARKE MP: Good afternoon John.
HUMPHRYS: Bit of a cheek that isn't it? "You're
the one who can unite the Party" - given your record?
CLARKE: Well I think that's what the electorate
have got to aim at. The obvious aim is to unite the Party, unite the Party on
the basis whereby it can revitalise its opposition credentials in Parliament
and outside; start rebuilding policy, start rebuilding the organisation; and I
think I certainly can unite the Party, precisely because I have not identified
myself with any faction, or any particular view on any of the big issues.
HUMPHRYS: What? You haven't identified yourself
with Europe?
CLARKE: I'm pro-European but there's a full
range of opinion within the Party and whether you have a pro-European or an
anti-European as leader, it's necessary for that leader to show that he can
conduct, lead the Party on an inclusive basis and can lead on a basis which
keeps every element of opinion inside. One of the mistakes about this election
is too many of the commentators are assuming that the five of us who are
candidates are kind of leading blocks and we can transfer blocks of votes to
the others - we can't. There's a great bewildering range of preferences. And,
another mistake is to think we're all standing seeking a mandate for a
particular policy - we are not.
What the Party is having to choose is
the most powerful and effective leader who can present a challenge to Tony
Blair, prepare us for winning in five years' time, and unite the Party behind
him in doing so; looking at policy in some depth on a considered basis as part
of that.
HUMPHRYS: Well perhaps the reason that we the
commentators have reached those conclusions is because we look at the sorts of
people who support the candidates. And in your case virtually all of your
support has come from the sort of leftish wing of the Party - unsurprisingly -
and from those who are most enthusiastic about Europe - unsurprisingly.
CLARKE: But I'm-As you've already said I've got
more MPs helping me and I'm going to get more MPs voting for me in the first
ballot than any of the others. I think I'm doing quite strongly in the Party
in the country, in the ballots being held amongst the Constituency Associations
and in the MEPs, the House of Lords - we'll have to see what they all do. I
think-Another thing, a point I make is, I think most of the people writing and
talking about it are not quite sure who is going to vote for whom in all this.
The figures we have are estimates and many MPs haven't declared. Some of the
names that appear in the newspapers are not accurate. This in the end, so far
as the Parliamentary vote is concerned, will be a hundred and sixty four people
voting secretly on Tuesday and we'll see what the outcome is then. But
it's-it's not a mandate for a policy. It is certainly not right fighting left.
I trust it's no faction fighting any faction and there's no candidate in this
election who can get all the people who might vote for him on first preference
to vote for somebody else in the second.
HUMPHRYS: Yeah. But, I mean, what we're seeing
now - you say that - but what we're seeing this morning - particularly loads of
reports about it this morning - is that the rightish candidates are now talking
about ganging up to keep you out. And, there's a very real possibility of
that happening isn't there? How are you going to deal with that?
CLARKE: Yeah. Well I read that but I have no
idea how accurate it is. As you say there are four right wing candidate, so
whether they are going to gang up or not I've no-no-no idea. They're more
right wing than I am. I suppose it's broadly-as broadly described.
HUMPHRYS: I think we can assume that- yes.
CLARKE: But if they were to line up that doesn't
mean the people who vote for them will line up with them. These-These - I will
only repeat. So, I don't want to repeat what I've said before. There are not
blocks of marshalled voters being led by one person who can turn round to them
and tell them to vote for somebody else. If any of these candidates pulls out,
including myself, if anyone of us pulls out, the people who voted for them in
the first ballot will disperse themselves amongst the other candidates.
HUMPHRYS: So have you got some commitments from
some right wingers then?
CLARKE: Yes, certainly. I'm quite - quite sure.
HUMPHRYS: Who? Who? Names! Names!
CLARKE: I'm not going to name people! It's a
silly game! These lists in the newspapers which are not terribly accurate.
Some Members of Parliament have chosen, publicly, to say who they're voting
for. I'm glad to say John MacGregor has come out for me today. But others
Members of Parliament are not and they're prefectly entitled not and they
discuss it with their Associations. And these lists are just, you know, all
part of the entertainment in the run up to the serious election on Tuesday when
a hundred and sixty four Members of Parliament will go along to express their
first preference.
HUMPHRYS: Right. But, let's look at the reasons
why I suggested you are the least, perhaps, likely of the candidates,
ultimately, to unite the Party. Now you say that it isn't a question of one
block against the other. But the fact is you represent the pro-Europe, the
enthusiastic European policies, in the eyes of the others and in the eyes of
many Members of Parliament. Therefore, it is going to be very difficult for
you to persuade them to support you isn't it? Because you have - as they would
put it - you have form!
CLARKE: There's a healthy degree of scepticism
about aspects of Europe throughout the Party. But I believe this country's
future lies in the European Union. I believe we get benefit from it. I think
for as long as any of these candidates, including myself, are likely to be in
politics, Britain will be a leading Member of the European Union, and the key
thing for Conservatives is to make sure that Union is the kind of Union we
want.
Now, this leadership election is not
going to produce a great new policy for the Party. Whichever one of the five
wins will not be able to turn round the next day and say: Well my views on
Europe are this, therefore the Party's view is now this. What the Leader will
of course do is lead a process of discussion which re-examines our policy on
Europe and reacts to events and reacts to whatever the Labour Party do in
Europe and produces a platform on which we can stand as strong indication to-
HUMPHRYS: Right.
CLARKE: -the country of what a Conservative
Government would do vis-a-vis Europe. That's not going to be settled on
Tuesday and the Tuesday after. And my position as the most experienced, by far,
in European politics, the only one who has attended Councils of Ministers for
well over ten years now, as probably knowing far more of the other politicians
of Western Europe than any of the others, I think it's quite strong on that
point.
HUMPHRYS: Alright. So, I am - let's assume - that
I am a moderately sceptical Conservative MP of the sort that you need if you
are going to win this election. What can you say to persuade me that you don't
represent the sort of Union of European policies that's going to scare me.
Because you see, you talk about an ever closer union and you believe in -
everybody talks about an ever closer union, who believes in that sort of
future for Europe - and you believe in that and that worries me as this
moderately sceptical Tory MP?
CLARKE: Well, I would say to that moderately
sceptical Tory MP: you're allowing my views to be slightly parodied. As
everybody knows I'm against a United States of Europe.
HUMPHRYS: Only I didn't say a 'United States of
Europe'. I didn't even use that expression.
CLARKE: I have never been a Federalist. I,
actually, believe in a partnership of nation states. What I also believe is
that the European Union is very important to us, that a lot of our prosperity
and our future clout in the World depends upon it. What matters to us is that
the British - British Conservatives, preferably - should insist that Europe
sticks to liberal economics, free trade - that we don't have the social
legislation, the protected labour market, protection in any other way that
other people go for. In fact, that we should feel free to trade in the world
and in Europe and pursue the business culture that has helped make this country
so much more successful in past years and that the others - the Germans, the
French, the Belgians, the Italians - have actually got to change their way of
doing business; their way of running their labour markets, their way of facing
up to the pressures of modern, global competition by moving in the direction
that we moved under Mrs Thatcher and under John Major in the 1980s and 1990s.
HUMPHRYS: Right.
CLARKE: And, that's the Conservative view of
Europe - the ......
HUMPHRYS: Well, that's - that may be it. That may
be your-
CLARKE: Who also believes in subsidiarity,
deregulation and, actually, rather more effective at arguing for it, I think,
than most other European politicians.
HUMPHRYS: Well, well - fine. But, I'm still a bit
concerned, you see, as this Tory MP who may, or may not, vote for you because
you didn't answer my question there. You didn't answer the question. Do you,
Ken Clarke, still believe in an ever-closer Union?
CLARKE: Well, that's a phrase from a treaty to
which the -
HUMPHRYS: Mm!
CLARKE: -Conservative Government signed up and
to which we've all signed up. The nature of that union is the key issue. The
issues I'm talking about - free trade versus protection, Social Chapter or no
Social Chapter, proper competition policy that allows genuine competition
across the Continent - those are the serious, daily issues. It's no good
quoting at me a phrase from a treaty to which the entire Conservative Party
assented-
HUMPHRYS: Ah! But the reason-
CLARKE: -many years ago and which as we see from
the forthcoming conference at Amsterdam entirely depends on what you people
wish to put upon it. And, I have a very precise view about the agenda at
Amsterdam and I have a very precise view of the role of Britain in Europe and
what kind of European Union we want.
HUMPHRYS: Indeed.
But, the reason that I - as the
sceptical MP - put it to you is, because-Yah! ever closer union is, indeed,
what we signed up to but I'm a bit uneasy about the way it has developed over
the years and the way it's going to continue to develop. And, I, actually,
now, want to repatriate some of those powers. I think, it's gone a bit too far
and the old ratchet system has come in to force, where we give a little bit
more and a little bit more and we never give anything back. Now, are you
prepared to say to me - to persuade me: I'll give you a bit back. I'll fight
too. Instead of rowing forward or interviewed staying stationary, I'll try and
row back a little bit!
CLARKE: No, I'm not, I'm afraid. Again - say,
you're the Eurosceptic MP - you're not a softline Eurosceptic, you're a
hardline Eurosceptic. I'm against this - I'm against the transfer of powers.
I mean, I don't see a case for further transfer of powers. We said we would
oppose that at Amsterdam. Tony Blair comes back having transferred any more
powers from London to the Union, I would oppose that! I think, I would oppose
it very effectively - probably with more credibility than any of the four
Eurosceptic candidates for the leadership. I'm going to that as a Europhile -
no case for it.
Now, if you're talking about
repatriation of powers, you're actually talking about going back to the past
treaties, reopening the Treaty of Rome as amended, - saying the British now
want a new relationship with Western Europe. No doubt, you can make that sound
awfully attractive in debate but the fact is, it's not obtainable, you can't
negotiate it; there's no basis upon which you can go back and rebase our
membership of the club - that is all soft-sounding words for a major crisis
about our Membership of the European Union.
HUMPHRYS: Right.
CLARKE: People who use phrases like the
repatriation of powers are, actually, trying to head us for a crisis over our
Membership. I disagree with that and I'd also say - going back to the point of
this election - that is not a basis for unifying the Conservative Party. That
is not a basis for fighting Tony Blair's Labour Government over the next five
years. It's a way of dividing the Party - to go for formulae of that kind -
and this leadership election should not be the basis of trying to mandate the
Party to policy positions that will divide it from the position.
HUMPHRYS: Right. So, you don't want to go back.
Do you want to go forward towards deeper integration?
CLARKE: I think at the moment, the European
Union would be well-advised going for a period of consolation now-consolidation
and I think it's a very great pity we've got this IGC. It should never have
been written into the Maastricht Treaty to have it. I don't see any area where
there's any case for transfer of more powers, at the moment. And, I think, the
agenda of the European Union over the next few years should be concentrating on
policy reform of what we've got in key and difficult areas, like Agriculture
and all these huge costly structural funds we have. And, most importantly,
enlargement into Central Europe and Eastern Europe, in order to make the
European Union more inclusive, to bring people into the East of the Federal
Republic of Germany into Membership.
Quite enough to be going on with. I see
no case for putting more transfer of powers on the agenda.
HUMPHRYS: Well, you see as this sceptical MP
again, I'm going to raise my eyebrows a bit at that, because what you've done
in the past is very clearly identify yourself with closer, deeper integration.
We cannot be satisfied ....
CLARKE: Well, I'm not sure....
HUMPHRYS: Well, I'm about to tell you, I'm about
to tell you. I've got to remind you of a speech that you made in Germany only
a few years ago - nineteen-ninety-four I think it was when you identified
yourself very clearly with the Christian Democrats, the party I think you'd
said with which you could feel most comfortable. Now, it's the position of the
Christian Democrats as you well know that we must deepen integration. I quote
the man who may very well be the next leader: "We cannot be satisfied with the
present level of integration, we must deepen it". Now that's the sentiment
with which you agreed.
CLARKE: Now you find a quote from Herr Schauble
who I know quite well, who is I think at - that's - and you could
probably move on if I'm not careful to Lamers....
HUMPHRYS: Oh, well you're ahead of me!
CLARKE: They - you're going, as you perfectly
well know for the Europhile end of the CDU which I very much like.
HUMPHRYS: Quite so, that's my point precisely.
CLARKE: They have the same approach within the
CDU broadly to these things that we do. They know perfectly well, and you know
the reaction to my speech in Germany was they didn't like what I said about
labour markets and the British Conservatives believe in flexible labour markets
and a more Anglo-saxon approach to capitalism and market competition than the
CDU like, and they know perfectly well that people like me do not go for the
more way-out integrationist ideas with some members of the CDU and CSU ....
involved in. Now, where I can get on very well with the German Christian
Democrats is when you get down to the pragmatic day to day business of the
union, and I can negotiate with them when I go to councils and they know
perfectly well where they stand with me, and they know perfectly well I'm
capable of saying no to further processes of integration which I think are not
necessarily part of the British interests.
HUMPHRYS: But these are the people at the far end
of the spectrum if you like, though some would say they're not that far out
from the rest of them, with whom if you were Prime Minister in five years' time
you would have to be dealing, and you've already identified yourself with the
Christian Democrat philosophy.
CLARKE: Oh, with the greatest respect, I sat
here very relaxed when you said I had my speech in Germany John, and you found
not a quote from it that demostrates your allegation. You merely found a
phrase saying I always found myself comfortable with the Christian Democrats...
HUMPHRYS: Most comfortable with.
CLARKE: Then you went down and found a quote
from a Christain Democrat which you said therefore meant I agreed with him. I
mean if Schauble were here, I know Schauble extremely well, and I've had long
conversations with him over Europe, and he and I know what we agree on and what
we don't.
HUMPHRYS; But you said you agreed with their
long-term aims, I mean I read the speech very carefully.
CLARKE: ... views to me.
HUMPHRYS: You said you agreed with their long-term
aims. I read the speech very carefully, it was a very interesting speech.
CLARKE: Well, there's no need in going out and
quoting some CDU speech somewhere and saying that means I agree with that.
HUMPHRYS: No, no, yours, yours, yours. Your
speech, not theirs, yours.
CLARKE: Look, if Schauble were here, Schauble -
I can't remember his Christian name, it's a great pity.....
HUMPHRYS: Wolfgang I think it is.
CLARKE: Yeah, well, anyway, if he were here he
might say equally polite words about the British Conservatives. He finds the
British Conservatives.....
HUMPHRYS: Oh, so you're just being polite, all
right.
CLARKE: An easy party to accommodate with. Then
you'd find a quote from Bill Cash, and you'd say, that means Herr Schauble you
agree with Bill Cash. Well, this is not a very sensible line of argument.
Let's get back to my views. My views are not federalist, they're not in favour
of a United States of Europe, I do believe that our economies are getting more
integrated in the modern world. I do believe we need to have a structure in
which the British economy can do well within that. This is much closer to the
practical commonsense day to day business of the European Union in which I
think I'm dangerously near to becoming by far the most experienced politician
on either side in the United Kingdom.
HUMPHRYS: All right. But let's look ahead then,
let's look ahead to five years time, and what a lot of people would say is the
ultimate, the acid test of where people want to go in Europe, and that's the
Single European Currency. Now, you are not opposed, given - because we're not
to have all that much time, I understand your reservations, you've expressed
them very clearly, about the criteria having to be in there properly, nothing
fudged. Now given that all of that is okay and that it's soundly based, you,
in principle, would be opposed, would be in favour of Britain joining a Single
European Currency. Now, there is a massive difference there between you and
this sceptical MP whom I represent. You can't persuade me on that can you?
CLARKE: I'm sympathetic to the idea, and if it
were successful or likely to be successful I would think you'd have a serious
debate about whether it wouldn't be in British interest to join it. What's
likely to happen for the foreseeable future is if it goes ahead at all it will
be on a basis that was not the one originally planned at Maastricht, it would
be fudged to put it shortly, and I'd be likely to say no. And I would say to
the Euro-sceptic Mps as I do: Look, given that we have to respond to events,
what the Labour Government does, the course of events in the next few years, it
looks overwhelmingly likely we're both going to be saying no to Britain joining
the Single Currency on this basis. Quite pointless for us to argue
precisely why we're saying no - if I say that I'm doing it largely for
pragmatic, economic reasons, and you say you're doing it because you're very
worried about transfers of sovereignty and you fear it might mean the end of
the Nation State, the fact is we'll both say no, and the British public will
hear us saying no. Now, I think there is a satisfactory basis for uniting the
party. It would be a mistake if one of the other candidates believes that they
can produce some rigid formula which would be a formula for dividing the party.
The idea that all hundred-and-sixty-four members of the Conservative Party have
suddenly got to say they are against this in principle, Britain will never join
could be a raging success, we could have business telling us we are losing
investment, we're losing out to the Germans and the French again, but we can
Conservatives would never, ever join a Single Currency, that is a formula for
division.
HUMPHRYS: Alright, well.....
CLARKE: I'm glad one or two of the other
candidates have come off it, but it appeared to be when they started the
opinion of all four of them.
HUMPHRYS: Right now, back to my MP role. I'm
looking for some reassurances now then from you. Will you give me the
reassurance that if you are leading the country in five years' time and this
issue arises, you will continue the policy of your predecessor which is to
offer the public a referendum on whether we go into a Single European Currency.
You are absolutely committed to a referendum if you happen to be in charge at
the time?
CLARKE: We're absolutely committed to a
referendum in the life of this Parliament.....
HUMPHRYS: No, no. That wasn't my question. That
wasn't my question.
CLARKE: No, what-what I would say on all policy
issues is I'm- I think it's completely hopeless within three weeks of losing an
Election for the Party to start sitting down to a whole lot of minor
commitments....
HUMPHRYS: Well, that's very interesting. You're
not prepared to offer a commitment?
CLARKE: You start with this one. Once you start
with this one, you're down to others. I have a very clear view how this
country should be governed. I have a very clear vision of what a Conservative
Britain would be like. It is based on what we did in the last Parliament but I
want a wide and inclusive policy debate now to be carried out for the next year
or two so that we decide how to pursue our principles but we re-examine those
policies to see how we can bring in fresh ideas, reinforce that which is best
and take on that which has gone weak.
HUMPHRYS: Right. So, no-
CLARKE: This goes back. My reluctance to
answer your question goes back to my view of this leadership election. This
leadership election should not be five candidates seeking a mandate for a list
of policy proposals. This leadership election is about a man. Has that man
got strong enough political convictions, a clear enough vision of where the
Party's going, enough wide, broad public appeal, combined with the political
ability to beat Tony Blair and to preside over a Party that is re-visiting its
policy objectives?
HUMPHRYS: Alright.
CLARKE: It is not a list of undertakings,
promises, commitments. Let us change this, let us change that.
HUMPHRYS: ...change anything.
CLARKE: And you have a different policy on this
that or the other. That would be the wrong way of approaching the whole choice
that lies before the Parliamentary Party.
HUMPHRYS: Right. Well, I'm not asking you to
change anything. I was asking you whether you'd continue the guarantee on a
referendum and you've told me you won't!
CLARKE: Well, what I've said is that we-we- The
Party will have to have a manifesto-
HUMPHRYS: After the next Election.
CLARKE: In five years' time.
HUMPHRYS: Yeah, yeah, yeah - exactly.
CLARKE: I'm not starting on the list at number
one. You can go from one to a hundred. If-If every-If the whole point of the
leadership election is thought to be that you start arguing the toss about
individual policies-
HUMPHRYS: Alright.
CLARKE: -we will get into difficulties. We all
fought on the last manifesto. We are all held together.
HUMPHRYS: Right.
CLARKE: I genuinely believe-Infinitely more
things upon which we're united, on which we agree, than ever divide us and we
must now embark on a policy discussion together once we've got the right person
to lead that effort.
HUMPHRYS: Alright. Right. We'll-We'll leave
policy then and as you say it's about the man who is going to lead it. The man
has got to be - many would say - a team player and they would say Ken is a
tough guy but he's not a team player. Look what he did during the last
Election. We heard Charles Lewington who ran your communications operation at
Tory Central Office, talking about that very thing this morning, threatening to
resign or at least holding out the threat that he might resign if we didn't go
along his road towards-
CLARKE: I hope Charles didn't say I threaten to
resign during the leadership election.
HUMPHRYS: No, no, no. But he said that threat was
always a-
CLARKE: ...complete nonsense.
HUMPHRYS: What-What about Lord Parkinson, former
chairman of the Party? He said you were holding the Cabinet to ransom.
Doesn't sound like a team player.
CLARKE: But he wasn't in the Cabinet at the
time. This is total nonsense.
HUMPHRYS: He talked to a lot of people.
CLARKE: I have been on the Conservative front
bench for rather longer than I like to play emphasis on because I get presented
as an old man then but I'm-I regard myself as a young sort of man, well into
middle age but no more. I have been on the Conservative front bench, I'll
acknowledge, for over twenty years. I have been a Member of the Conservative
team for my entire political career. I have always been engaged in the process
of producing a collective policy and I am accustomed to sticking to that policy
and I am accustomed to supporting it. I have been playing in the Conservative
team very effectively, I believe - I hope - for a very long time. It's
absolute nonsense for-you know we are-All Parties have the occasional zealots
and the odd ideological enthusiast and so on and they regard people like me,
out of the pragmatic mainstream of the Tory Party, as a little irritating
sometimes. But the idea that I am not the team player is nonsense. I am the
one who doggedly has put forward the position of the Government. What used to
annoy me in the last Parliament occasionally was I would make a statement,
wholly consistent with the Cabinet's agreed policy and the declared policy of
the Government and some zealot would go off and say I was being divisive. And
I think in Opposition all that stuff has got to be put behind us and I've been
a member of a team and I can lead a team.
HUMPHRYS: Alright. In the last thirty seconds,
speaking of zealots, perhaps, I would say John Redwood. Now I'm intrigued to
learn that if you win you're going to start a sort of bonding exercise. You're
going to bond with people like John Redwood and I have this wonderful image of
you taking him a great bear hug, you know, and bonding with the aid of a
counsellor perhaps. Why are you going to do it?
CLARKE: Well I regrettably used the word
bonding. Needless to say I used it tongue in cheek - it's a social worker's
phrase. But, a hundred and sixty four people reduced into Opposition, we
should get closer together and work as a team. Let me use a phrase I'm more
fond of and used to use in the past, I regret unsuccessfully: we'll either hang
together or we'll assuredly hang separately.
HUMPHRYS: But they'll be no hugging of Mr Redwood?
CLARKE: My basis for running an Opposition Party
is ....broad brush (phon) but I've entered into no commitments for anybody.
What I want is a team of front bench players leading a team of backbench
players and getting much closer to the voluntary party and our Councillors and
so on, that can get ourselves into effective Opposition again. And anybody
who'll contribute to that will have a role to play in any Party that I lead.
HUMPHRYS: Right. Ken Clarke. Many thanks. That's
it for this week. We'll have our full hour again next week. Until then good
afternoon.
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