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ON THE RECORD
RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 27.10.96
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INTERVIEW WITH ROBIN COOK
HUMPHRYS: Robin Cook, there are many of our
partners in Europe who say: seventeen years of Conservative Government; we've
had enough of them throwing spanners in the European works. What we really
want - what we're desperate for - is a more friendly Labour Government who'll
see things the way we see them. They're likely to be a bit disappointed,
aren't they?
ROBIN COOK: No, I don't think so at all, John.
On the contrary, the Labour Government will offer them - as we have plainly
stressed all over the period in which I have been Spokesman on European Affairs
- a constructive approach to Europe. We're starting out from a premise that we
recognise: that Britain's economic future is in Europe. The Continent is the
place to which we send the great majority of our exports.
The health of that European economy is
vital to our own industry. That is why we believe that the role for Britain
should not be - as it has been under this Government - heckling from the bottom
of the table - but playing a full part, seeking to be pivotal, seeking to be
the country that decides which way the decision goes by being in the middle of
the debate and not on the far fringes of the debate. And, there are a whole
raft of proposals we have made which are very welcome in Europe. To start
with, our commitment to sign up to the Social Chapter - not just because it'll
be welcome in Europe but primarily because we believe people who are at work in
Britain are entitled to the same rights at work as the people of the Continent,
often working for the same company and now enjoying better rights to know what
the company's plans are.
HUMPHRYS: You say playing a full part. Does that
mean that you want the closer integration that so many - most - of our European
partners want?
COOK: Well, we're certainly growing together.
We have common problems, we've got to find common solutions. That also means
you've got to have effective decision-making in order to arrive at those
solutions. One of the things that we do want to see is to see the
decision-making of the European Union made more democratic, made more open. It
is very offensive since the collapse of Communist Europe the only place in
Europe left which has the power to pass laws and secrets is the Council of
Ministers of the European Union. And, we would have a lot of allies on the
Continent, arguing for more openness, more democracy and would be able to reach
decisions on more effective decision-making.
HUMPHRYS: Many of our partners would have wanted
an unequivocal yes to that question I've just asked you, wouldn't they?
COOK: Well, John, first of all, it depends
exactly what you're going to make of the use of the yes. I noticed for
instance, in the film, you said that I'd positioned the Labour Party to a more
sceptical position, since the death of John Smith, by ruling out a federal
superstate of Europe. I'd say that's always John Smith's view as well.
HUMPHRYS: Well, I think, that's a fairly free
interpretation of what the film said. But-
COOK: No. I think, it's a precise and
accurate position of what the film said.
HUMPHRYS: I don't think we suggested that John
Smith wanted a federal superstate-
COOK: Well, you suggested - But you
suggested -
HUMPHRYS: And, I don't think that we had suggested
that you had ruled it out.
COOK: - that by ruling it out I'd moved the
Labour Party to a sceptical position. Our position has never been to support a
federal superstate. What we want to see is a free European Union, consisting
of member states, coming together because they recognise they've got common
problems, because they've also got common interests and they've got to find
common ways forward.
Also, we're less interested in building
a superstate than we are in devolving power within Britain. We've no problem
with the Government's claim of subsidiarity against Brussels. We just wish
they'd practice subsidiarity at home and hand down power from Whitehall as
well.
HUMPHRYS: Well, let's lose this phrase
'federal superstate'. I don't recall using it myself. I haven't used it. The
word I used was integration. Do you want - does the Labour Party want -
greater integration with Europe? And everybody knows what I mean by that.
That's a nice, straightforward concept.
COOK: No. Tell me what you mean by
integration, then?
HUMPHRYS: Well, let's, let's-
COOK: Or, do you say you know what you mean?
HUMPHRYS: Well, let us go down a list, then.
Let's see if we can sort of find out what your views are by putting a few
points to you and, then, we can-
COOK: Right.
HUMPHRYS: -come back to the integration question.
COOK: OK.
HUMPHRYS: Let's look at jobs, first of all.
COOK: Yeah.
HUMPHRYS: Now, you have said that jobs should be
at the head or the top of the European agenda.
COOK: Yes.
HUMPHRYS: What do you mean by that?
COOK: Well, there are several things that we
could do to boost jobs. First of all, we put jobs at the head of agenda
because it is the principal concern of the peoples of Europe. Unemployment in
Europe is at a very high level, job insecurity in Britain is higher than it
has ever been. We actually, still have fewer permanent full-time jobs in
Britain than we had at the time John Major became Prime Minister. So, jobs
ought to be at the top of the agenda.
Now, there are several things you could
do in order to act upon the employment creation potential of the European
Union. The first of those is that we are strongly committed to supporting
writing in a commitment to Employment creation into the Treaty of European
Union. And, indeed, actually, the advent of a Labour Government may well be
what swings the balance of the European Union in favour of putting that
commitment to Employment into the Treaty of Union. That's very important,
John, because the Treaty already has a number of very specific financial
commitments on Government Deficit and National Debt.
It's important if we're going to get a
balanced macro-economic strategy. The focus is on the very real concern of
the people for jobs and job security, that Employment should also be there as
one of the priorities of economic management in Europe.
HUMPHRYS: Alright. Now, integration. The test -
the great test - of integration - whether we want it, or whether we don't;
whether we're going to move forward or whether we're going to back away - is
the Single European Currency, quite clearly. Now, you talk about jobs in that
answer there. And, much of what you've said relates to what might be - as it
were - Maastricht Two. What you have also said, in the past, is jobs will be
- and I quote - "jobs will be the bottom line by which we judge whether Britain
will join any Single Currency. Now, what does that mean, specifically?
COOK: Well, specifically, it means we will
decide to join on the basis of whether we believe joining will increase the
Employment potential of Britain, or make it more difficult for us to match the
commitments we have given in Britain to Employment-creation and to getting down
the dole queues.
HUMPHRYS: That's pretty woolly.
COOK: No, it's not woolly at all. It's very
firm and it's very precise. If we believe that the Single Currency will help
us in meeting that jobs target we'll join it. If we believe it hinders, we
won't. And nothing could be more precise and specific than that.
HUMPHRYS: Well, now. Let's try and find some
specifics then - targets, objectives - all that sort of thing. You have said -
let me quote you again, if I may - "if the Maastricht Treaty can set targets
for deficits on jobs-
COOK: Yes.
HUMPHRYS: -on, on Government spending and things
like that. Then, why should it not set objectives-
COOK: Yes.
HUMPHRYS: -emphasise that word - to tackle-
COOK: Right.
HUMPHRYS: -Unemployment." What kind of
"objectives" do you have in mind?
COOK: Well, there are three or four different
texts now circulating, following the Swedish proposals to put an Unemployment
chapter into the Treaty of European Union. But, they all have in common first
of all a commitment on the part of the European Union to Employment creation
and secondly, they mostly have - which I believe is very imporant - that
Employment creation should figure in the guidelines that has now set by the
European Commission for domestic, economic management by the Member states.
HUMPHRYS: And, they all relate to Maastricht Two
don't they?
COOK: Well, this is a debate that is going on
at present. But, I don't think you can dismiss it because Maastricht-
HUMPHRYS: That's not what I'm asking about, you
see.
COOK: No. I'm sorry. You asked about
Employment and what we're going to do is specific. Maastricht Two is going on
the present time and it may well be completed in June - two months after Labour
comes to office. It's highly relevant, John. I don't quite understand why
you want to marginalise that?
HUMPHRYS: Well, because - It's not a question of
marginalising. I'm asking you how that is relevant to whether or not we enter
a Single European Currency? What are the rules that you're applying? What are
the objectives you're sitting-setting- for entering a Single European Currency?
Not what may or may happen sometime in the future but before we take this
critical decision?
COOK: Well, let's deal with that. And, if I
may say so, the Labour Party's policy on this has not changed in the last three
years. The almost identical wording has been carried at each of our Party
Conferences since 1993 and what it sets out is very clear. Yes, we can see
attractions in a Single Currency. We can see that a single market would work
better if there is a Single Currency, and we're also very attracted to the
idea that we would not have a sterling currency vulnerable to speculation,
which has wrecked the economic strategy of a number of British Governments -
including, of course, spectacularly, this Government on Black Wednesday in
1992.
But, what we've also said is that we can
only gain those advantages for Britain if we, first of all, have achieved
convergence of real, economic performance, the ability to match the investment,
to match the skills, to match the output, to match the output unit costs of the
European economies, particularly Germany. And, until we are confident that we
have done that it could be very risky for Britain to give up the option in
future of devaluing if that was necessary.
Now, if we believe that we have achieved
that convergence of real economic performance then, I think, the jobs are
going to be go to those in favour of joining. If, however, and tragically
after eighteen years of Tory rule this may have to be the conclusion we've come
to - if, after eighteen years of Tory rule, we find that we've not matched that
convergence of real economic performance, then there is that risk - that if
you went in not competitive on level terms, you could end up with a very
serious risks to your jobs.
HUMPHRYS: So, in other words, are you telling me
that levels of unemployment in the other countries should be roughly the same
as those in Britain at the time we are thinking of joining or.or that they
should be converging, and at what point...
COOK: No, I'm not saying anything of the kind,
John. I'm not saying that converging of unemployment figures is the criteria,
what I'm saying to you is that the impact of joining or not joining in the
number of jobs in Britain is the critical test for us. That's not saying
that we're seeking some kind of convergence of unmployment figures, what we are
saying is we're trying to approach this simply on the very clear, very
straightforward basis, will this decision help or hinder the creation of jobs
in Britain.
HUMPHRYS: So in other words, if it is your
judgment that joining a Single European Currency would cost one job in Britain,
we will not join a Single European Currency.
COOK: I fear John that no politician would
turn to a calibration quite so fine as one job, but you'd take it on the
balance of judgment and if on the balance of judgment you came to the view that
we had not achieved convergence of real economic performance, that therefore
joining when we had still not built that competitive industry could be adverse
in its effect on jobs, then I think any government is bound to say "can we
actually join in that first wave". But that's a decision we will only be able
to take when we get into office, when we see those figures and when we judge
the economic conditions of British industry against the state of those on the
Continent.
HUMPHRYS: Because Peter Haines has made it quite
clear, hasn't he, that if there were any jobs to be sacrificed, we shouldn't do
it, and he's one of your own frontbenchers.
COOK: Well, I'm quite happy to agree that we
should not join the single currency on the basis of sacrificing jobs, but you
know, there is that counter argument and that is the other one we have to weigh
in the balance. If a single currency does go ahead, then we have to look very
hard at what could be the possible impact on jobs if Britain, perhaps a
minority in the Council of Europe, was left outside it. What, for instance,
happens to inward investment into Britain. Might people in Tokyo or New York
decide that in future they're going to invest inside the core. currency area
rather than offshore. So, it's not a simple, straightforward judgment. That
is why we are so determined that we are going to take it carefully, we are
going to take it in the full knowledge of the facts, and we may not be able to
take it until we have the access to the figures and advice that is available to
us in government.
HUMPHRYS: So that makes it very unlikely that
you'd able to get in the first wave, doesn't it?
COOK: There is a very serious problem for
Britain in the first wave, there's no point in ducking it, and that is that we
have had a Conservative Government in the saddle for the last seventeen years
and in particular for the six years since Maastricht, who have shown no
interest in joining. The last five, six years have not been spent in
preparing Britain to join and one of the first things we will have to ask when
taking office is have there been preparations done in private, perhaps
preparations they didn't dare tell John Redwood and the others on the
Conservative backbenches, that would certainly denounce any such preparations,
but if we take office in the middle of next year, to a degree we're going to
have a very hard job, not impossible, but a very tough job in catching up to
get Britain ready to join that first wave after these years of lost
opportunity.
HUMPHRYS: Sir Michael Butler, who knows a thing of
two about these things, appears to think that work wasn't done, that work that
you talk about.
COOK: Well, Sir Michael Butler is, as you
know, one of the people I've invited to advise me on the question of
enlargement and we've listened to his views with respect. As Sir Michael I
think would be the first to admit, he has not himself been serving in
government for the past decade, and those who are currently serving in
government might be more up to speed.
HUMPHRYS: But as far as you're concerned, what you
know and you've talked to an awful lot of people, even civil servants
occasionally I daresay, it appears that there are huge difficulties ahead.
COOK: Undoubtedly John, I mean nobody is going
to deny that, I think anybody who suggested that joining the single currency in
the first wave would be easy, would be being either dishonest of ill informed.
There are very serious challenges to be faced. That's not say that an
incoming Labour Government would not be up to them, but we have spelt out both
very clearly what the basis will be on which we'll make that judgment, and I
wish this government could be equally as honest and frank, and secondly we have
said if we are convinced that our criteria are met, then we will join. The
present Conservatives won't even tell you what they'd do if their criteria were
met.
HUMPHRYS: And of course, as far as many of our
friends are concerned, whether we join or not, is the great litmus test of our
Europeanism, isn't it?
COOK: It would be wrong, for a number of such
tests...
HUMPHRYS: What's more important?
COOK: Oh, John, there's a whole range of
issues on which Britain's contribution to the European Union would be
measured.(INTERRUPTION) I can tell you first of all, when I go to the
discussions with our colleagues in Europe, the top of the agenda at present
time is jobs, and how you can .....in jobs. The advent of a Labour
government could make a very material difference to the debate in Europe.
To take one example, only the other week the European Council of Ministers
decided not to go ahead with the new transport network, it's not just road and
rail transport but information super highway systems; they ruled out fourteen
projects. Labour is very committed to going ahead with those measures, both
because it helps the single market, but also because it would provide a
stimulus to demand and a stimulus to jobs. A Labour Government batting on the
side of the progressive countries who want to see this go ahead would be very
welcome and would find allies.
HUMPHRYS: So we've got that problem, the
problem...
COOK: ... that was an opportunity that
one...
HUMPHRYS: Well alright. As you know, I'm going
back just a shade. We have this problem of our preparedness to join the
single currency, that is a problem. You talk about jobs all the time, we have
the problem
INTERRUPTIONS
COOK: Can I just say before we lose track of
that, we have persistently expressed the view that we need to build a people's
Europe. If we want to build popular legitimate support for the European Union
again, it has got to be done by demonstrating the European Union can meet the
needs and the concerns of the peoples of Europe and at the moment, jobs is
their number one concern.
HUMPHRYS: And at the moment, there is much much
higher unemployment in many other parts of Europe than there there is in this
country. Now, is that a consideration as far as joining a Single European
Currency is concerned?
COOK: I've said already John that we're not
going to make it a criterion whether or not we achieve convergence on
unemployment figures, and can I just deal with the ...
HUMPHRYS: In that case, I can't quite see the
bottom line you see. You say the bottom line relates only to Britain....
COOK: .... there is no contradiction there at
all. What we mean when we say jobs are the bottom line, is will this
increase or reduce the number of jobs in Britain. That is the bottom line.
But can I just take the point you've made about unemployment in Britain. The
reason why unemployment in Britain at a temporary moment is actually lower than
in many of the European countries, it is because unlike most of the Continental
countries, we've actually had fewer people coming in to the labour force over
the last two years. If you actually look at the number of jobs created in
Britain, we lag behind virtually every country in Europe, all the Continental
countries having created more full time jobs than Britain over the past
seventeen or six years (sic).
HUMPHRYS: I am a little surprised that you
disparage the notion that joining the single European currency is the litmus
test because David Martin your own very senior MEP, who says that it is, so
do many others of course...
COOK: Yes, David is a very distinguished
member of the European Parliament and is a very useful source of guidance to us
on what the perspective is of the European Parliament, but it is not the sole
perspective of the governments of the European Union, many of whom often have
shades of difference between their own MEPs in the way that sometimes we in
Britain do.
HUMPHRYS: Can you then reassure David Martin and
others who are concerned about this that if we don't manage to catch under
Labour Government, if we don't manage to catch the first bus, we will at least
catch the second bus?
COOK: I think there really are very serious
problems for Britain staying out of a Single Currency in the medium term if it
goes ahead and I've always been absolutely frank about that. First of all
there is the problem of inward investment to which I've already referred;
secondly, there is the fact that Sterling - if it was the major European
currency outside the Euro currency - would then have to bear the whole brunt of
speculation and the European exchanges. I think you could manage those in the
short-term if you didn't sign up in the first wave, but I don't think that you
could manage them indefinitely. And, if the Single Currency goes ahead, and
if the Single Curreny succeeds then it is very hard to see how Britain could
prosper outside of it. Ultimately, you would then have to join.
HUMPHRYS: So-
COOK: The question we are facing at the
present time is would we be able to join at the start? Now here - to respond
to David Martin's point - I think there would be a lot of understanding among
the governents of Europe, the people who've actually had to wrestle with the
difficult decisions to join, who have - unlike the Conservatives - actually got
down to work on that. I think there'd be a lot of understanding on their part
if we said to them: look, we think it's a good project, we would have liked to
jojn, unfortunately the Conservatives have missed so many years of opportunity
it may not be possible for us. Many of the governments and capitals of Europe
would respect that.
HUMPHRYS: So you'd be happy to do what Ken Clarke,
the Chancellor has said would be pathetic?
COOK: Kenneth Clarke I think was referring to
some of his colleagues in his own Conservative Government, but as I understand
it, Kenneth Clarke has not said come what may the Conservative Government is
going to join in the first wave-
HUMPHRYS: No.
COOK: And, if I may say so, if anybody is
responsible for the lack of preparedness it is the Chancellor of the
Exchequer.
HUMPHRYS: Right, you wouldn't would you, go in to
say a Labour Government wouldn't go into a Single European Currency unless it
felt it had the people of Britain behind it? You said that they would be given
a choice either through an Election or a referendum. Now, how can voting in a
General Election conceivably be seen as giving people a choice on a single
issue.
COOK: Well we have said repeatedly that we
would only join a Single Currency with the consent of the British people and
actually I do think that is simply also a statement of the reality as well as
politically correct. I don't think that anybody is going to get such a measure
through the House of Commons unless it was clear that the British people had
consented to it.
HUMPHRYS: Yeah, but how do you measure whether
they want to consent? They can't give their consent in a General Election can
they because elections aren't about a single issue. They're about a whole raft
of issues, the manifesto contains dozens of things.
COOK: John, I know it may not be a single
issue but look I am a politician who's elected to Parliament at a General
Election as are all the other members of Parliament. We then claim a mandate
to carry through the measures that we have put before the people and for which
they have voted. I really do think that Westminster MPs have to be careful
about suggesting that an outcome of a General Election somehow is not a measure
of the consent of the British people. It could be if the issue of a Single
Currency was an important factor in that General Election-
HUMPHRYS: Well!
COOK: -and if that did provide a clear choice
to the British people. But if not-if not-then yes, a referendum is another way
in which you can measure that consent.
HUMPHRYS: But surely you would accept that taking
this country into a Single Currency is the most important decision that we
would have made since the War?
COOK: It would be a very profound and very
important decision of our economic and financial policies-.
HUMPHRYS: And you would be happy-you would be
happy to bundle that in with a whole pile of other issues - dozens, literally
dozens of other issues - many of which people might feel strongly about though
if they felt more strongly about a Single European Currency than anything else,
they couldn't express it. We've only got one cross to put on our ballot paper.
You can't say: Yeah I like a Labour Goverment but I don't like the Single
Currency - you can't do that.
COOK: But John, this is a very familiar choice
that people make at a General Election-You buy the policies put forward by the
Parties in that General Election and-
HUMPHRYS: But, you've just told me that this is
the most important thing. And some issues are more important than others.
COOK: Can I just come back to your point about
so much more important. As I said, it would be a very fundamentally important
decision of economic and financial policy. We never had a separate referendum
on the very many important economic and financial decisions that have been made
over the last fifty years since the War. But John, I'm not saying that we are
ruling out a referendum - far from it.
HUMPHRYS: No, but-
COOK: Please! Please let me finish. We were
the first people to say that a referendum might be required in the case of the
decision of joining a Single Currency long before John Major came round to
floating the idea. And, if I may also add this point, it is the Labour Party
that gave the people of Britain the only referendum they'd ever had so far in
Europe after a Conservative Goverment took us into Europe without asking
anybody else's decision.
HUMPHRYS: But, why are you running scared this
time then?
COOK: I'm not running scared at all.
HUMPHRYS: Well you are. You're saying we floated
the idea but I mean that's a pretty pathetic, isn't it? We floated the idea.
The Government then seizes the initiative from you and you say: Well we might
actually still do it, but you know, I don't really know.
COOK: No. The Government has never actually
said that it would only go into Single Currency with a referendum. What it has
said-no it hasn't said that. No, no let me finish John, if you read what they
have said and it is very carefully expressed, that there will only be a
referendum in the event that they decided to join a Single Currency in the next
Parliament. That leaves it perfectly open that you might well have the General
Election after next fought on the issue of a Single Currency, might well be the
case of which Parties come forward with possibly different positions and which
at that stage it would be a perfectly proper judgement on the consent of the
British people as to whom they voted for. The Conservatives have not said that
in the event of them coming back to power in the Election after next that they
would then give a referendum.
HUMPHRYS: So it's the next election is it?
COOK: There is always that possibility. I
mean, if you follow through the logic of what you are saying about possibly not
being in the first wave, I don't know. We might be in the first wave, but if
not in the first wave, there is a General Election that follows.
HUMPHRYS: You sound pretty sceptical to me Mr
Cook?
COOK: I though I was trying to sound careful,
cautious and making the right decision in the interest of the British people
and particularly the Employment rights and needs of the British people but it
is a decision we will have to weigh up very carefully when we have the
information available to us.
HUMPHRYS: Robin Cook, thank you very much indeed.
COOK: Thank you.
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