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ON THE RECORD
RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 14.12.97
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JOHN HUMPHRYS: Good afternoon. Only another two days
to buy a rib of beef before that becomes illegal. I'll be talking to the man
who banned beef-on-the-bone, Jack Cunningham, and asking him whether there's
any good news in prospect for those of us who BUY the meat and the farmers who
produce it. That's after the News read by MOIRA STUART
NEWS
HUMPHRYS: On Tuesday the ban on beef-on-the-bone
comes into effect. Another blow for Britain's hard-pressed farmers,
particularly the hill farmers who've never been exactly raking in the cash.
Now they are in serious trouble, what with BSE, a ban on selling beef overseas
and competition from foreign meat coming into Britain - made cheaper as a
result of the strong pound. On Friday night, the Agriculture Minister, was
pelted with flour and eggs by farmers in Carlisle, angry about the huge decline
in their incomes. So can he, Jack Cunningham, offer any hope of an improvement
in their fortunes. He joins me now from our Newcastle studio. Good afternoon
Dr Cunningham.
JACK CUNNINGHAM: Good afternoon John.
HUMPHRYS: Now, you're meeting European
Agricultural ministers tomorrow, I think it is, and then the Commissioners are
meeting later in the week. What prospects are there of a lifting, or partial
lifting at any rate, of the ban on our beef exports?
CUNNINGHAM: Prospects are reasonably good. We're
closer than we've ever been to getting approval for the first scheme submitted,
that's the export certified herd scheme. I hope that a decision may be made on
that early in the New Year and I shall be in Brussels - as you said - on Monday
and Tuesday when matters related to that I expect will be informally
discussed. It's not a formal item on the Council of Agriculture Ministers'
agenda but what is likely to come up is the implementation of the European
Union wide application of specified risk material policy to all European beef.
And I've made it clear if Europe does not implement that decision on the 1st of
January as we agreed to do last July then I will have no hesitation in taking
unilateral action in implementing it in respect of all beef coming into
Britain.
HUMPHRYS: So what would that unilateral action be?
CUNNINGHAM: That would mean that any beef imported
into Britain from the 1st of January would have to be subject to the same
stringent safeguards as is applied - as are applied, sorry - to beef produced
in this country, so that the farmers would get the level playing-field they're
calling for in respect of that kind of safeguarding of beef.
HUMPHRYS: But surely that should happen anyway,
the way they've been messing us about.
CUNNINGHAM: Yes it should happen, you're right John.
We took a decision in July that it would take effect from the 1st of January.
There are signs now in Brussels that the opponents of that decision have been
working to have the implementation date put back again. Now I'm just not
willing to accept that and if that is what is confirmed in Brussels on Monday
or Tuesday, then I shall take action to lay orders in Parliament, in the House
of Commons immediately, to give effect to that so far as imports of beef into
the UK are concerned.
HUMPHRYS: You say the prospects for lifting,
partial lifting of the ban, certified herds at any rate, are reasonably good.
Why not impose that ban, or some other kind of unilateral action in the event
of them not doing that. Because after all there is no reason on earth why they
should still be banning meat, our meat, from certified herds, is there?
CUNNINGHAM: I agree John that our meat, British
beef, is subject to the most stringent safeguards anywhere in Europe - and is
as safe as any beef anywhere in Europe, indeed safer than some of it because
other countries don't apply the same safeguards as we do. It's for that reason
that I, it's essential that I can go to Brussels and say: I am acting on all
the advice given to me to ensure that British beef is safe and can be safely
consumed. Not only in Britain but in Europe. I want to see our beef back into
European markets and that is why I've got to be able to demonstrate that it is
safe and that I've taken every possible action to ensure that it is safe, as
indeed I have done.
HUMPHRYS: Because what you're saying is there is
absolutely no reason why meat from certified herds in Britain, those that
haven't had any BSE for eight years and can prove that they haven't, should be
banned.
CUNNINGHAM: That is right, that is exactly what I am
saying and I'm also saying there's no reason why beef from animals born after
the 1st of August 1996, should be banned either. And that is the basis of the
second scheme I've submitted for approval in Brussels and last week, rather
clouded by all the hullabaloo we had about lamb which was rather misleading,
there was a favourable decision about that scheme too, so that it too can
progress and what was most important was that no-one challenged the date that
we'd fixed of meat from animals born after the 1st of August last year. So we
made some progress on that scheme too. And I shall be pushing both of these
proposals because of course the date based scheme has universal application in
the United Kingdom and offers a much better and quicker way forward for our
farmers than the export certified herd scheme does.
HUMPHRYS: They've been messing us about haven't
they?
CUNNINGHAM: Well we're dealing with two different
commissions here and two different bureaucracies in Brussels and I'm afraid
that some of them have been - appear to have been looking for new questions.
Every time we answered one set of questions, another set of questions was put
to us. I've worked very hard and quickly to answer all their questions and now
we're at the point where I believe they simply have no excuses. No further
questions should arise, we've answered their questions satisfactorily, we're
prepared to take the action and the additional safeguards on administrating the
schemes that they've asked for. Now is the time that we are entitled to say:
make a decision.
The problem from our point of view is
the proposal must come from the Commission for such a decision. It cannot come
from me or from the United Kingdom government.
HUMPHRYS: But it won't come from the Commission
unless and until the ministers themselves say that they want it to change, want
it to happen. So it is up to you then to up the ante isn't it. After all, you
used to attack John Major for being soft, saying oh they're going to do it so
we'll give them a bit more time. You are now saying, they've had the time,
we've done what we need to do and you are prepared to up the ante.
CUNNINGHAM: Yes I am and I'm also prepared, as I've
said, to ensure that if our European colleagues don't take the action which I
believe is necessary, and which was the subject of a legal commission decision
in July, if they put that off, then their meat will not come into Britain
unless it has been subjected to the same stringent safeguards as our own. And
that means beef from anywhere else in the European Union.
HUMPHRYS: And in practice could they meet those
standards. In practice would it actually mean us banning beef from Europe?
CUNNINGHAM: No, I can't ban imports John. That would
be...
HUMPHRYS: They banned ours!
CUNNINGHAM: That - oh yes because we had a much more
serious situation with respect to BSE than anyone else. Our beef was banned
because of the BSE crisis here in the UK.
HUMPHRYS: But I mean you've already acknowledged
that they're messing us about. I mean what we ought now to be able to say to
them: look, you carry on like this and we're going - we're not going to stand
for it.
CUNNINGHAM: That's exactly what I am saying. I'm
saying that I shall enforce the same restrictions on European beef coming into
Britain, or hoping to come into Britain, that we enforce to safeguard the
public here, in respect of our own beef. And if they don't want to implement
those safeguards, well, then beef from whatever country that might be, will
simply not come in.
HUMPHRYS: Well now, some farmers here might like
to hear you talking like that because they certainly didn't like what you said,
neither did many customers will like what you said last week about - a
fortnight ago - about banning beef on the bone. That has added to the farmers'
problems. I understand...
CUNNINGHAM: I'm not sure that it has added so much
to their problems.
HUMPHRYS: They certainly believe that it has. I
mean it's lowered confidence again in beef. It's reduced confidence in people
buying beef. I know the reasons you've given for doing that, you've told us in
some detail what the scientific reasons are for that and we may come back to
that in a moment. But people are still saying, having heard everything that you
have said about that, for heaven's sake tell us what the risks are and let us
make up our own minds.
CUNNINGHAM: John, it's a curious argument, I think,
to suggest that because I am taking measures to make absolutely sure that beef
is safe, that I am underminding confidence in beef. The reverse is actually the
case. I need to be sure that beef going into the human food chain is safe to
eat. I've acted on the advice from SEAC and from the Chief Medical Officer, as
you rightly say and I have statutory duties as Minister for Food Safety, to
ensure that beef is safe, that food generally is safe. Now, was I to knowingly
allow a tissue to go into the human food chain when it was..ran the risk of
being infected. That was not a decision I was willing to take.
HUMPHRYS: You allow us to smoke cigarettes..
CUNNINGHAM: And that is a measure which should
actually give people greater confidence in beef, not less confidence and we're
only talking you know about five per cent of beef. Ninety-five per has..
HUMPHRYS: That's not the point.
CUNNINGHAM: Well it is the point.
HUMPHRYS: No, it isn't.
CUNNINGHAM: It is the point.
HUMPHRYS: No it isn't. The point is decisions you
have taken on our behalf.
CUNNINGHAM: We're interrupting each other here, we'd
shouldn't do that.
HUMPHRYS: Go on.
CUNNINGHAM: Why should a decision affecting only
five per cent of the beef sold, be damaging to the market when ninety-five per
cent of the beef sold is already sold off the bone. There is one further
crucial argument here. If I had gone to Brussels next week and been faced with
questions and criticism from those people who don't particularly want to help
us get the ban lifted, them saying you have knowingly allowed this situation to
continue, you have not taken action to remove potentially infected tissue from
British beef, would that have helped us get the ban lifted or would it have
made it more difficult to get the ban lifted? I put it to you that it would
have made a difficult job even that more difficult.
HUMPHRYS: I suppose I'd put it back to you that
you're trying to have it both ways. Now you're saying you did it for health
reasons, but you also did it for political reasons.
CUNNINGHAM: I did it for both reaons.
HUMPHRYS: Well yes. But if you deal with the
health reason first, we know and it's an old argument, nothing original about
this, we know that smoking is a million per cent more dangerous than eating a
bit of beef on the bone because the risks there - and some scientists argue
that there are no risks at all, but if the risks are there, there are
infinitesimally small. We know that smoking ten cigarettes a day is extremely
dangerous but you don't ban us from smoking. You put a little warning sign
there.
CUNNINGHAM: No, we put rather large warnings on
every tobacco product. Are you really suggesting that we put health warnings in
butchers shops about beef, John, would that increase customer confidence in
beef?
HUMPHRYS: Well, what you - it doesn't have to be a
scare warning does it? You merely have to ...
CUNNINGHAM: Well, ....
HUMPHRYS: You asked me the question, so let me
answer it. You certainly - you could put a notice, you could say to the
butcher's put a notice in his shop saying : we're continuing to sell beef on
the bone, the government says there is a tiny risk of - find the words, you
make up your own mind. We're grown-ups, we know what the risks are.
CUNNINGHAM: My statutory responsibilities, the clear
advice I had from the Chief Medical Officer, and the advice I had from SEAC all
led me to the inescapable conclusion that I should take that decision. In
addition, I put it to you, that if I had not taken that decision the Europeans,
not wanting to see the ban on British beef lifted, would have additionally had
another argument to prevent us making progress. Look, the biggest problem
facing our beef farmers now is their inability to sell their product into
international markets. It's absolutely essential that we continue to make
progress towards getting that ban lifted in the interests of our farmers who
are suffering and having a difficult time, particularly these men in the less
favoured areas.
HUMPHRYS: But....
CUNNINGHAM: ... whom I know well in my own
constituency. And I've got to remove any impediment to getting that ban
lifted, and it was certainly an additional factor that I took into
consideration.
HUMPHRYS: But the problem with the health argument
is you hear from one group of scientists, you've appointed some for the SEAC
committee of yours. You hear from another group of scientists - they all
differ, the've all got different views on these subjects. Some people say -
there's a very distinguished professor has said: Look, there is a tiny risk.
If I had small children I would not let them eat beef or lamb. Well, in that
case if what you're concerned about is the smallest, tiny scintilla of risk you
should surely say: You should eat beef or lamb if you're a youngster.
CUNNINGHAM: No, no, no,...
HUMPHRYS: Why not?
CUNNINGHAM: I wouldn't say that at all.
HUMPHRYS: Why not?
CUNNINGHAM: Well, I'll tell you why not. Because at
the same time as these tests were being carried out on the dorsal root ganglia
and on marrow, and there's some evidence now of infectivity in the experiments
in marrow, it's an additional reason incidentally for removing the bones - at
the same time as those experiments were being carried out parallel experiments
were carried out on the muscle meat, the beef itself and the blood, and they
were all negative, consistently negative. So I can say it's perfectly safe to
eat beef, and I eat beef myself regularly, and have never stopped eating it,
and will go on doing so. It is safe to eat our beef, it's important that I'm
able to say without any dubiety at all, without even the merest question mark
being raised, that our beef is perfectly safe to eat. If I had not taken this
decision I would not have been able to say that either in the House of Commons
or on your programme, or in Europe either.
HUMPHRYS: What about the scientists who say that
certain cuts of lamb, the cuts that join up to the spine of lamb aren't safe to
eat? A risk there, but you've not done anything about it.
CUNNINGHAM: No, I take my advice from SEAC John,
not...
HUMPHRYS: ..... scientists and European
scientists.
CUNNINGHAM: Well, not from the scientific steering
committee in Brussels who expressed an opinion.
HUMPHRYS: Why?
CUNNINGHAM: Well, because I'm telling you - we have
our own independent scientific committee, the Spongiform Encephalopa Advisory
Committee, they've looked at this issue, they advised me earlier in the summer
that for sheep and goats over twelve months old we should take precautionary
action, but for lamb there was no problem. And incidentally we look at these
things on a continuous basis. There is no evidence at all of any BSE in the
national flock of sheep.
HUMPHRYS: Well.
CUNNINGHAM: And there's nothing wrong with lamb,
there's no need for me to take any further action in respect of lamb. As I've
made clear I don't intend to take any further action. SEAC advised me again on
that as recently as the Second of December, and that is the situation.
HUMPHRYS: But two SEAC scientists, John Collins
and Jeffrey Alman said they'd be surprised if there was no BSE in lamb and
cheese.
CUNNINGHAM: Well, they're entitled to express an
opinion.
HUMPHRYS: I mean they're the scientists you've
been respecting in other areas. I don't see why you can dismiss their ...
CUNNINGHAM: Well, John, I've got to take the
collective advice of SEAC, not the advice of individuals, but the collective
advice of SEAC, which is what I do. I know there are scientists the length and
breadth of the country, some saying people shouldn't eat meat and others saying
that the precautions we're taking are themselves unnecessary. We've got every
possible conceivable opinion right across the spectrum. I take my advice from
SEAC. The collective judgement of SEAC was, there's no need for me to do
anything about lamb, that's animals under twelve months old, and I don't intend
to take any action in respect of lamb. Now, the two scientists that you've
referred to are expressing an opinion, but there is no evidence to suggest that
there is any BSE in the national sheep ...
HUMPHRYS: The reality is this is all pretty hit
and miss isn't it. You'll get one view from one lot of scientists, another
view from another lot whether they're on the committee, whether they're in
Europe, wherever they happen to be, and the end of it all what you have to do
is reach a judgement, as you're doing.
CUNNINGHAM: I have to make a mudgement, that's what
I'm here for, that's what ministers are for.
HUMPHRYS: Well - but the worry is you see that
politicians make judgements often on the basis of politics. Nothing wrong in
that in many respects, but here we have a case ...
CUNNINGHAM: Thank you for that assurance.
HUMPHRYS: Well, I say that because in the past
you've been attacked, you used to attack the last government many times for
dithering over the whole question of BSE and CJD and all the rest of it - now,
you yourself, the last thing you'd want I suggest to you anyway - perhaps I'm
wrong about this, is to be accused of dithering. So, you'll say, you know I'll
do something, if it goes too far so be it, better that than the other. But
that's a political decision rather than a scientific one.
CUNNINGHAM: No, no, no. Let me respond to that in
two ways. First of all that was not a consideration in my thinking. The
reality is however if previous ministers of Agriculture had acted with more
decisiveness and acted sooner than they did in respect of BSE we would not be
facing, in my view, the appalling consequences of the failure to act that we
are facing now, with our beef ban, measures costing about one billion pounds
per annum, and now knowing there's a direct connection between BSE and new
variant CJD. So I believe that earlier action in this matter could have
avoided some of the worst consequences that we now face, and we do have a
crisis in respect of the beef industry because of that. The problems in the
beef industry haven't simply arisen since the First of May. Now as for
apparently acting as you suggest without due consideration.
HUMPHRYS: Oh no, let's be clear about that. What
I was suggesting was that you were more concerned, or as concerned about
confidence in the government as were about confidence in me.
CUNNINGHAM: I was concerned about confidence in, and
the safety of meat and nothing else, and I was concerned about the necessity
that I have, the statutory duty I have to do everything in my power to ensure
that there is no infectivity knowingly allowed into the human food chain, and
that was what I was making a judgement about. I knew way back in th summer
about the results of the early experiments on dorsal root ganglia. A week
before SEAC formally met, that's in November, I met with my ministerial
colleagues and the Secretary of State for Health and our senior advisors and we
spent almost two hours considering all the evidence. The day before SEAC met I
briefed the Prime Minister on the likely recommendation that SEAC would come
forward with, I saw the SEAC report the day after they'd drawn it up, and I
decided what I should do. The suggestion that somehow we didn't properly
consider these matters or we rushed out a judgement hastily and without proper
thought is frankly just not true.
HUMPHRYS" Whatever, the effect on farming
obviously is damaging, the whole thing is damaging to farmers. They're
suffering a lot as it is because of the high pound and the cost of their
produce when it sells abroad, the cheap produce coming into this country. What
are you going to to help.
CUNNINGHAM: Well I hope to make a statement, to
be able to make a statement in the House of Commons, John, and as you know we'd
be in big trouble if I started making announcements on your programme. Much as
I would like to give you an exclusive before I tell the House - I'd be in
trouble with my colleagues in the House and with the Speaker. I hope to be
able to make a statement before the House rises on that but the biggest way of
helping farmers - I emphasise - is to get the ban lifted and that will be a
partial progress.
HUMPHRYS: Yes, but that is only part of it. That
doesn't deal with the strong - the effects of the strong pound. So you are
telling me - and you are not going to give me the details, clearly, but you are
telling me you are going to do something to help hill farmers in particular who
have been so badly hit by the strong pound.
CUNNINGHAM: I know that hill farmers, those farmers
in the less favoured areas have faced serious problems now for a considerable
time. I know they are not fat cat farmers, they have low incomes, and I also
know John, since I have represented some of these people and we are friends, I
hope we are still friends. Most of them were perfectly well behaved
incidentally on Friday night in Carlisle, it was only a tiny handfull who were
abusive and foul-mouthed and ugly and threatening. Ninety nine per cent of
them were perfectly well-behaved. I know that twenty eight years ago when I
first met hill farmers in west Cumbria they were in the lowest decile of
farm income earners. Twenty eight years later they are still in the lowest
decile of farm incomes. The policies in that period haven't worked to improve
their income or their quality of life. Things have got to change. We cannot
go on simply providing more and more money. The plain fact is that many of
these farmers would be facing losses now, they would be in deficit if it wasn't
for the level of subsidy they already receive and it's in total for the beef
sector alone this year one point five billion pounds. Now, it is not solving
their problems. We do need a restructuring of the beef sector, we need to move
to sustainable agriculture - and I mean economically sustainable as well as
environmentally sustainable agriculture, and simply get away from a system
which doesn't solve the farmers' problems, doesn't solve the environmental
problems and certainly ends with consumers paying more for their products under
the CAP than they otherwise would have to do.
HUMPHRYS: In the long run, clearly, a lot of
farmers would agree with that but in the short run - as you acknowledge - they
have very serious problems and they can't carry on like this. It seems that
the Irish Government is using European Union funds to help their farmers, are
you prepared to do the same? I know it isn't free money - you've made that
quite clear in the past, but nonetheless they need help and they need it now.
CUNNINGHAM: These matters are under consideration
and discussion with my Cabinet colleagues and myself...
HUMPHRYS: But that's not been discarded, that
thought, has it? That remains a possibility.
CUNNINGHAM: No, I've never discarded it, John, and
those people who've said I've ruled it out are wrong. I've regularly made it
clear to Sir David Naish and the NFU that I would keep the matter under
consideration and I have kept my promise on that. But of course I can't make
this decision on my own and let me say one final thing - I think that farmers
themselves have got to recognise in all these discussions they must work
through the constitutional processes and procedures and that is through the NFU
and keep away from the ports and stop blockading legitimate trade and stop
destroying other nations' products because that will... all of those things
will lose us support in Brussels, cause us more difficulties in Brussels and
damage the farmers' interests. So I am happy to work with the NFU and I'm
doing so and I shall continue to do so and the farmers should work through
their own organisation in exactly the same way.
HUMPHRYS: Jack Cunningham, thanks very much indeed
for joining us.
CUNNINGHAM: Thank you.
HUMPHRYS: And that's it for this programme and
indeed for this year. But just a reminder about our website on the Internet.
You can get transcripts of all our programmes from it and find out what's
coming up. The address should be on your screens now, I hope, and it's
repeated at the end of the programme.
We'll be back on January 18th, just
after Parliament starts up again. From the On The Record team and me, goodbye,
enjoy the holiday.
...oooOooo...
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