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                                 ON THE RECORD 
                            DAVID TRIMBLE INTERVIEW      
 
RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1                                 DATE:   1.2.98 
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JOHN HUMPHRYS:                         Well the Ulster Unionist leader, David 
Trimble, is in our Belfast studio. Mr Trimble, a whole string of people there 
saying, I think agreement is likely or possible by the end of May, do you agree 
with them? 
 
DAVID TRIMBLE:                         Well it depends how you define that of 
course.  It depends what you're talking about. You notice Jeffrey Donaldson, my 
colleague, speculating that agreement is possible perhaps with the SDLP and the 
British and Irish governments but finding it very difficult to see how there 
could be agreement on a settlement with Sinn Fein because Sinn Fein have 
declared that they are not interested in a settlement. Bear in mind what Gerry 
Adams said when he came out of Downing Street, that for Sinn Fein the talks 
were merely a phase, that they would see how far they could take the process in 
it and then they would try to carry it on in other ways. And we can just 
speculate as to what they are. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Well we could assume, could we not, from 
what was said in that film, that they might mean by that, some kind of 
constructive opposition, well that would be alright wouldn't it, from your 
point of view? 
 
TRIMBLE:                               If that happened, but there's very 
little sign of it.  You see there's very little real engagement by Sinn Fein 
with this process and with the agenda of this process. Indeed, the impression 
that your film gave of progress having been made last week in Lancaster House 
is something I don't recognise. We found Lancaster House a very disappointing 
week because no serious discussion took place at any time during it.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Well, the document contained fifty areas 
of possible co-operation. Now, you don't have a great problem with those fifty 
areas, do you? 
 
TRIMBLE:                               No, I regret to have to tell you that 
the document was fine so far as it described the existing arrangements for 
which of course there are no, and there need not be, any political structures. 
But to have a whole series of headings, because that's all it was, including 
inward investment. Do you seriously think that there's going to be any 
cross board arrangement on inward investment. Do you think John Prescott is 
going to allow that, when we've got the new arrangements put up in the DTI 
whereby he's trying to gain control over the Scottish Development Agency, the 
Welsh Development Agency and Industrial Development Board in Northern Ireland. 
Do you think Mr Prescott is going to allow something to escape out of that net, 
I doubt it.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Yes, but in the context of what we are 
talking about here, that is to say a lasting peace in Northern Ireland. So we 
will not have another twenty thousand people dying over the next twenty years 
or whatever it may be.  That is a detail isn't it? 
 
TRIMBLE:                               What is a detail and what is not a 
detail are something people can talk about, what is important, fundamentally 
important to us, is that the democratic rights of the people of Northern 
Ireland are respected and that involves first of all their right to choose 
which country they're part of.  And that's got to be clear and that involves 
their right to be part of the United Kingdom on a basis similar to that, of 
people in Wales, Scotland and England.  And it means being separate from 
political institutions, making them subject to some other arrangement. Now that 
is what we have got to stir away from. Co-operation on points of detail are not 
a problem, never have been, happened under Stormont, in fact there was quite 
extensive co-operation under Stormont, usually proposed by Unionists and we 
usually find it was Dublin who was the reluctant party.  So, points of 
co-operation on matters of mutal interest have never been a problem. What is a 
problem is the creation of all-Ireland political institutions. Now that is the 
proposal that we made for a British/Irish council to cover the whole of the 
British Islands, is so important because it is within that context that 
co-operation ceases to be a political problem.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              But whatever those North/South bodies 
might or might not agree, in one sense it doesn't matter. Their existance in 
one sense doesn't matter because you will have to have, their decisions, their 
recommendations whatever, would have to have the approval of whatever sort of 
Assembly came into being in Northern Ireland, Northern Ireland Assembly. And 
you would have the Unionists, inevitably, would have in a real sense, the 
majority on that council. So why can you not say, well look, we'll fight those 
battles when we have to.  
 
TRIMBLE:                               There's a lot more to it John than that, 
we mustn't over-simplify. Obviously we will be looking very carefully at the 
question of what is the source of authority, how would decisions be made, to 
whom are people accountable and whether there's going to be any compulsion. Do 
you know that the framework document that Jeffrey Donaldson tore up, which 
isn't a current paper, it was three years' old, actually has a proposal which 
if taken seriously, would mean sending Unionists to prison or fining them if 
they didn't do what they were told. Now, that's the sort of daft idea that's 
floating around. You may think, it was outlandish, but it was exactly what 
happened after the Anglo-Irish Agreement in order to coerce Unionists, there 
was fines and imprisonment. We're not going back to that, things have got to be 
agreed, they've got to be properly talked about, they've got to be in the right 
context. That's what we're trying to do and we've been talking with the British 
Government, the Irish Government, the SDLP, quite seriously and quite 
intensively about this, unfortunately not last week, maybe the week after next 
we can get back to serious discussion.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              My point was that whatever comes out of 
those bodies, would be accountable to the Northern Ireland Assembly, if the 
Northern Ireland Assembly didn't like it, it couldn't happen.  
 
TRIMBLE:                               Well, we've no certainty that such an 
Assembly will exist, or continue to exist - that's important.  We need to be 
sure of that before we can realistically look at other matters.  Now, at the 
moment, there's no agreement, actually, that there be an Assembly.  I know, 
it's proposed by the British Government - obviously, welcome to us.  But, we 
want to make sure that such a thing will exist and that it will be durable 
because there's no point talking about things being accountable to an Assembly 
if the Assembly can be destroyed.  And, that again, is a problem we've got to 
be sure that people will be genuinely committed to co-operation in that 
context.   
 
                                       Now, these are quite complex matters and 
that's part of the reason why things have taken so long.  And, there hasn't 
been, unfortunately, from some of the Nationalist side a serious engagement on 
the detail on those issues and I wish they would get involved in serious 
discussion. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Well, maybe it would help there if you 
spoke face to face with Sinn Fein, something you're adamantly refusing to do? 
 
TRIMBLE                                Now, that's not true either, John - I 
have to, again, put this in context.   
 
HUMPHRYS:                              This Government says it is.  I mean, I'm 
not in the talks, of course.  I don't know what's going on there but when the 
Prime Minister says: I would very much like you and them to speak face to face 
in these bilaterals that they're happening? 
 
TRIMBLE:                               Aah, there is a distinction - there is a 
distinction.  We all meet in the talks. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Oh! 
 
TRIMBLE:                               And, we're all at the same table.  At 
that table, Sinn Fein are not doing any serious talking.  But they are outside 
the talks doing a lot of whingeing about wanting to have a private meeting with 
us. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Well, why not? 
 
TRIMBLE:                               Well, let us see whether they're 
seriously engaged first.  We've got an agenda which was set by the document 
called Proposition on Heads of Agreement.  Are they going to talk about that?  
So far, they haven't. Are they genuine about seeking a settlement?  So far they 
say they're not.   Do they accept- 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              What?      
 
TRIMBLE:                               Do they accept that Unionists have a 
right to a say in this process?  Do they accept that the people of Northern 
Ireland have the right to choose?  They say they don't.   
HUMPHRYS:                              And, instead of asking me- 
 
TRIMBLE:                               ...on those points. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Instead of asking me all those 
questions, why not sit down with Gerry Adams, with Martin McGuinness and ask 
them those questions in the-They're-They're quite happy to do that.   
 
TRIMBLE:                               It's happened. 
HUMPHRYS:                              In these bilateral talks- Face-to-face 
privately and sensibly. 
 
TRIMBLE:                               ..Look.  When you say why not put those 
questions to them, well, that's exactly what Reg Impey did in the talks in 
Lancaster House Tuesday afternoon round a table with everyone present.  He put 
those issues there on the table.  Martin McGuinness never replied, didn't 
answer the questions - let him answer them. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Well-meet him again next week?  Why 
don't you say on this programme: Go on, Mr McGuinness, I'll meet you next week 
privately and we'll sort this out? 
 
TRIMBLE:                               We'll be there at the talks on Monday.  
If Mr McGuinness and his colleagues are going to seriously engage on the agenda 
- the agenda set out.  If they're going to seriously search for a settlement 
and if they accept the rights of the people of Northern Ireland to choose, 
then, let him say so. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              But, you see, Mitchell McLaughlin said 
in that report by Laura Trevelyan there that they're not looking for a United 
Ireland as a result of these talks.  We're realistic, he said.  It'll take 
time, it'll take five years, it'll take twenty years.  What if we are patient?  
We're prepared to negotiate.  
 
TRIMBLE:                               Look, these talks are-That again is part 
of the problem.  These talks are trying to arrive at a settlement, not a 
transitional arrangement.  There's a world of difference between the two and, 
unfortunately, Mr McLaughlin, in your interview, confirmed again what I said 
-Gerry Adam said coming out of Downing Street: that this is merely a phase.  
And, if they don't get what they want in this phase, they'll continue the 
struggle at a later time by a variety of other methods.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Can I-? 
 
TRIMBLE:                               Now, that is not acceptable to us, it's 
not acceptable to other Parties as well.  There's got to be a genuine attempt 
to reach a settlement.  No one's going to enter into serious negotiations with 
someone who is not committed to trying to reach a settlement. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Can I ask people-Can I ask you to do a 
very quick final thought, if you would, on Martin McGuinness, who-who's been 
talking this morning about the Bloody Sunday investigation. He says he's 
expecting prosecutions to result from that.  Just very quickly, if you would.  
Are you? 
 
TRIMBLE:                               That's what I said in the House of 
Commons on Thursday to the Prime Minister after the Prime Minister said that 
nobody's seeking revenge.  I told him the relatives might not be other people 
are.  I've been proved right again.   
 
HUMPHRYS:                              David Trimble, many thanks. 
     
 
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