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ON THE RECORD
DAVID TRIMBLE INTERVIEW
RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 8.3.98
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JOHN HUMPHRYS: There have been some positive noises
this past week from both the British and the Irish Governments on the progress
of the Northern Ireland talks. But there's not long to go before the deadline
for an agreement and in the past few weeks they've been more preoccupied with
who's present at the talks and who's absent than actually getting on with it.
And that's not about to end. Sinn Fein won't be at the table tomorrow even
though they're now entitled to be. And when or if they do return - after a
meeting with Tony Blair - the Ulster Unionists have made it clear they won't be
welcome. So is the optimism really justified? The Ulster Unionist leader
David Trimble is in our Belfast Studio.
Good afternoon Mr Trimble.
DAVID TRIMBLE MP Good day.
HUMPHRYS: You've always said that Sinn Fein don't
deserve to be at the talks, is that still your view?
TRIMBLE: It's always been our view and the recent
shootings and bombings because the Republican movement was involved in the
bombs that have gone off recently, even though the Government are turning a
blind eye and refusing to recognise that fact. I mean these acts of violence
underline the rightness of our assessment that Sinn Fein have not abandoned
violence and committed themselves to the democratic process. They've had
plenty of opportunity to. In the last six months, they had plenty of
chance-opportunities to prove that they were committed to the democratic
process, that they wanted to be involved in serious discussions and they
haven't taken those opportunities. Instead, we've seen the violence of recent
weeks and months.
HUMPHRYS: So what will you do if they do come
back?
TRIMBLE: Well we shall consider that. We have
some thoughts and we'll do what we do, when we do it, and we'll tell you about
it at the time.
HUMPHRYS: We are, as I said in my introduction,
getting some optimistic sounds coming out of London and Dublin, the governments
there at any rate. Is progress being made in your view?
TRIMBLE: Well, I wish people would be
realistic. There are people spinning on behalf of the British Government and
the Irish Government and as you say making optimistic noises. And it's
obscuring the fact that there are still real differences that have to be
addressed and real issues to be resolved and it's giving people a false
impression and indeed actually causing some anxiety in some quarters. So, I
would be happier if those people who are dealing with, you know the press on
behalf of Government, would do so in a realistic and honest way.
HUMPHRYS: Let's look at one of the reasons why
there may be a bit of optimism and that is the report that you, the Ulster
Unionists, and Dublin, have reached a sort of agreement and you can tell me how
much of an agreement perhaps, on this question, what's called Articles Two and
Three of the Irish Constitution; that is to say Dublin's claim to Northern
Ireland? Are you getting anywhere with that?
TRIMBLE: Well we've had some discussions with
Irish Government Ministers and officials in which we've made it clear what we
think should be done. We've had optimistic noises from them but I can't yet
say that we're satisfied that there will be the real commitment to change which
is necessary. So, again, there isn't-the substance isn't there yet and I think
it's too soon to say that this issue is resolved.
HUMPHRYS: But you're making progress.
TRIMBLE: Well, as I say we've been talking to
them. We've been trying to make progress. I am a little bit disappointed,
actually, that we haven't made more progress.
HUMPHRYS: Well, perhaps you would be wouldn't you
because it's your position, absolutely unequivocally that those Articles -
Articles Two and Three - must be dropped?
TRIMBLE: The territorial claim must disappear.
There is no question about that at all. There's got to be an open recognition.
And you see, without recognition, without respect for the Electorate in
Northern Ireland, for the people of Northern Ireland, how can there be any
co-operation? So this is-it merely clears the way for the possibility of a
civilised relationship. And it's something that the Irish ought to be doing,
ever in breach of International Law and the position that they're adopting. It
is ridiculous at this end of the Twentieth Century, in Western Europe, for
these sort of primitive attitudes to continue.
HUMPHRYS: But clearly you are of the belief that
they may be moving towards that position. I mean you're talking to them. There
is something moving there, isn't that what you are saying?
TRIMBLE: Yes, but I'm saying that we're not there
yet.
HUMPHRYS: Yeah but do you think you're on the way
there?
TRIMBLE: Yes, well I hope we do get there and we
hope we do see the changes which we consider to be necessary.
HUMPHRYS: The reason I press this a little bit is
that Gerry Adams has written an article this morning in which he says that if
they do drop those Articles Two and Three, then that is the end of any
agreement at all, as far as Sinn Fein is concerned. It takes precisely the
opposite position from what you're taking.
TRIMBLE: Well we did notice, as I said earlier,
that in the talks over the last six months, that no serious effort was made by
Sinn Fein to engage in the real issues. Indeed their position has toughened in
some respects. And this comment by Adams actually toughens their position
further. There was a time several months ago when Adams was hinting that he
would be prepared to accept some changes in Article Two, now he's toughened his
position. I don't think Sinn Fein have any serious intention of engaging in the
talks. I think they'll barely be manoeuvring and I think the bombs and the
shootings of the last few months are a clearer indication of where the
Republican Movement is.
HUMPHRYS: But I just wonder what's happening
between Sinn Fein and Dublin if you believe there is - you say not a great
deal - and certainly not enough obviously, but if there is a little bit of
movement in your direction from Dublin, at least you're able to have
constructive talks with them. And yet this is the position as far as Gerry
Adams sees it, which is that there's absolutely not the smallest possibility of
it happening.
TRIMBLE: Well, you're-it's an interesting point
you're making there that the Adams article may be directed more at the Irish
Government than at anyone else.
HUMPHRYS: What about the other absolutely vital
issues here? Let's look at the so-called North-South bodies. Now your position
on that, again, is absolutely firm. Is it that there must be that whatever
North-South body is set up, it must have no executive powers whatsoever?
TRIMBLE: I think what people fail to appreciate
is the tremendous step that Unionism is contemplating in saying that there can
be a relationship and indeed a framework, an institutional framework for a
relationship between Belfast and Dublin. And I think people must recognise that
the furthest that can go is to discuss matters of co-operation. It's
essentially a consultative arrangement. To go further than that is to create
an embryonic Governmental structure. Now, if the people-if the consent
principle means anything, if you respect the views of the people of Northern
Ireland who have said that they wish to be part of the United Kingdom, then
they must be part of the United Kingdom and not part of some other-or subject
to some other governmental structure. That's the issue:are we part of the
United Kingdom or not? And if you're establishing a third centre of Government
in Ireland, then you're transferring part of British sovereignty to this
structure. Now that's what's really meant behind this and the use of the word
executive, which sounds to some people not so threatening, is obscuring the
real issue.
HUMPHRYS: But, I note you say 'essentially'
constructive - essentially consultative - there. You don't say 'absolutely',
only consultative?
TRIMBLE: Well, the arrangements will be
essentially in our view and if our view is to follow, there would be
essentially consultative now, a consultative arrangement may result in some
areas of joint action - as has happened in the past - but the body itself will
not acquire any function, other than a consultative function. Now, obviously,
there are points of detail to be looked at here and I want - rather than get
bogged down in the detail we want - to keep our eye on the matter of
principle. And, the matter of principle is whether any Governmental powers are
going to be ceded to a body that's outside the United Kingdom and would have
Governmental functions with regard to the people of Northern Ireland and that
is an absolute. That is an issue which is not acceptable, which we cannot
contemplate and I bring you back to my first point. People are failing to
recognise the significance of Unionism saying: yes, we will have a relationship
and we will provide for a consultative relationship.
HUMPHRYS: A relationship with Dublin, of course,
you're talking about here.
TRIMBLE: Yes.
HUMPHRYS: Yeah.
TRIMBLE: But, the line has to be drawn there and
equally important that relationship has to take account of the totality of
relationships within the British Isles because if we're talking about
consultation and co-operation, then, we've got to deal with the realities of
the matter and the reality of the matter is that even for the Republic of
Ireland all the relationships on the East-West axis are more important than
those on the North-South axis.
HUMPHRYS: That's to say London and Dublin, as
opposed to Dublin and Belfast - yeah.
TRIMBLE: That's the deal.. It's not just London
and Dublin. It's to deal with the British Isles, as a whole.
HUMPHRYS: So, again, listening quite carefully to
the language that you're using there, you're not-You talk about co-operation,
the need to develop this kind of co-operation. Obviously, co-operation
encompasses all manner of areas, doesn't it? You're not actually here saying:
alright, we will have this kind of council and absolutely nothing else. You're
talking about it?
TRIMBLE: Well, we are, of course, engaged in the
talks and we're talking-There's a lot of serious discussion still going on but
there are important issues which have not yet been agreed. And, there is still
a fundamental difference in approach and I must say that Irish Nationalists -
by here I'm thinking of the SDLP and the Irish Government - still are not
coming to terms with the reality of Northern Ireland and the views of the
Northern Ireland people. And, they haven't yet learned the lessons of
Sunningdale. It was, funny enough, an SDLP Member who said these talks were
Sunningdale for slow learners but unfortunately there are those within
Nationalism who haven't started to learn yet.
HUMPHRYS: Is it absolutely out of the question
that you might be able to reach agreement on these issues? Within the
timetable? Even the slightly extended timetable that the British Government,
that Mo Mowlam is working towards?
TRIMBLE: The timetable has been abbreviated, not
extended.
HUMPHRYS: Well, sorry - yeah.
TRIMBLE: We're trying to reach agreement
before Easter. Now, there is some difficulty I understand - not a difficulty
as far as we're concerned, not a difficulty as far as the United Kingdom is
concerned - in proceeding rapidly afterwards. And, certainly, our view would
be that if we get agreement at Easter - before Easter - then, we should move as
quickly as possible thereafter. And I do not see - I've heard no good reason
for delay. I'm not quite clear what the Secretary of State has been saying
recently on this subject because we haven't had the chance to discuss it with
her yet.
HUMPHRYS: No. But, you've heard what she said on
the media and things like that. I mean, when you say 'realistic': including
Sinn Fein? You think that that could happen?
TRIMBLE: No, I didn't say including Sinn Fein.
HUMPHRYS: No. I know you didn't. I was asking
you.
TRIMBLE: No. Because as I said earlier, Sinn
Fein have not been realistic and they haven't been-They have been given the
opportunity to but they haven't engaged seriously with other Parties in the
talks.
HUMPHRYS: Are you, yourself, in a position to
deliver an agreement here because one hears that you're coming under a certain
amount of pressure - considerable pressure - within your own Party; that you
may well be challenged for the Leadership of the Ulster Unionists?
TRIMBLE: Well, one only holds - within the Ulster
Unionist Party - you only hold the Leadership for one year. It's an annual
election and so, of course, we will be coming up shortly to that, as we do
every year. In terms of the position within Unionism, the-I would refer you to
the opinion poll commissioned by BBC Northern Ireland and publicised in the
course of the week - very interesting and, I think, close to the truth in that
it indicated within Unionism, generally, there is a one third, two-thirds
split; that two-thirds of Unionists are-do endorse the approach that I and
others have taken through the talks.
But, there's a large slice of Unionism
that is very uncertain, if not opposed to the process and that's true of
Unionism, generally. The position within the Ulster Unionist Party, the
balance would be a wee bit more in favour of the line we've taken - it's maybe
an eighty-twenty split.
HUMPHRYS: There, we must end it. David Trimble,
thank you very much, indeed, for joining us.
TRIMBLE: OK. Thank you.
HUMPHRYS: And, that's it for this week. We'll be
back next week. Until then, goodbye.
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