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ON THE RECORD
RON DAVIES INTERVIEW
RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 29.6.97
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JOHN HUMPHRYS: Ron Davies is in our Cardiff studio.
Good afternoon Mr Davies.
RON DAVIES: Good afternoon.
HUMPHRYS: After what Peter Mandelson said, have
you been told effectively to change your mind and agree that people like Mr
Smith should be allowed to campaign against devolution?
DAVIES: No, I haven't. There are two points I'd
like to put to you. First of all it has never been the case that I have
threatened people with expulsion or that I've threatened to throw people out of
the Parliamentary Labour Party. That accusation just isn't true. Secondly, I
made my position clear, and indeed the government's position clear, in the
first session of Welsh Questions that we had a couple of weeks ago, on the
floor of the House of Commons, when I made it absolutely clear that I respected
the right of individuals to ask awkward questions, sometimes that's very
difficult to be on the receiving end but I made it quite clear that that was
per ectly acceptable and indeed for individuals to express views that were not
necessarily the views that I wanted to hear. And that view of tolerance is the
view that the Prime Minister expressed and indeed that Peter Mandelson
expressed a few days ago.
HUMPHRYS: Right, asking awkward questions and
tolerance and all of that is one thing, campaigning against devolution is
another. Are people like Mr Smith going to be allowed actively to campaign
against devolution?
DAVIES: Well it's not a matter for me to say
what Llew Smith can or cannot do, he's an elected Member of Parliament. We
were all elected in Wales on the basis of half a dozen key pledges which were
included in our election manifesto. One of those was that we would introduce a
referendum and that we would campaign for a yes vote and on the basis of that
yes vote we would then introduce an assembly. Now, I think that in
acknowledging that every individual Member of Parliament and indeed every
individual member of the Labour Party, has rights to express their view in a
spirit of tolerance. I also want to draw attention to the responsibilities
that people have to live up to their election promises and to live up to the
votes that were cast by the people of Wales, in the General Election, in the
expectation that we would deliver this promise.
HUMPHRYS: What's the difference though between
expressing your view and participating in a campaign. I mean is he going to be
able, as far as you are concerned, you say it's not down to you, but you've
been pretty outspoken about it all in the past. Is he going to be able to take
part in a campaign himself, against campaign for a no vote, during that
referendum.
DAVIES: Those are not matters for me. And when
you say that I've been outspoken in the past. What I've said in the past is
that I want the Labour Party to approach this matter on the basis of unity.
There is so much that can be done, you see, the assembly is about improving our
democracy. It's about getting a more democratic Wales for the purpose of
improving our economic performance, for improving the delivery of health care,
for raising educational standards. That's why we want these changes and
there's an enormous goodwill. A movement of goodwill wanting to see those
progressive changes. And I'm just surprised that there are people who want to
stop that progress being made. I want the Labour Party to be united to fight a
vigorous campaign to get a yes vote so we can bring about those improvements.
HUMPHRYS: Yeah, okay. You've made your position
clear. You believe in it, Llew Smith believes in something else. In your
view, should he be disciplined if he takes part in the no campaign?
DAVIES: Well I've already made it clear that
it's a matter for individuals in exercising their own judgement, their own
consciences to speak freely on matters of policy. That's the view of the
government, it's a view that I warmly endorse and I've expressed that view on
the floor of the House of Commons...
HUMPHRYS: You haven't expressed it outside the
House of Commons. I mean let me remind you what you said last Tuesday.
DAVIES: I have expressed it privately and
publicly.
HUMPHRYS: Well let me tell you what you said, very
publicly on the World at One on Tuesday. You were asked about this, about this
question of showing loyalty, as you put it, you said it's a matter of loyalty.
And you said: "if they fail to show loyalty" and I quote "we would have to look
at the action that would be available to the Parliamentary Labour Party". In
other words, quite clearly, there is at least the possibility of disciplinary
action being taken against them, quite clearly, otherwise why would you have
said that.
DAVIES: Well there are standing orders of the
Parliamentary Labour Party, which require every individual to act in accordance
with those standing orders, to express themselves moderately, to refrain from
personal insults and to act in harmony with the policies of the Parliamentary
Labour Party. Now, it is a matter of fact that if individuals, by their own
conduct, put themselves outside of those standing orders, well then their
conduct would have to be looked at. But let me just make it absolutely clear,
because I hope we can draw a line under this now and move on to the wider
debate about devolution. I have made it perfectly clear, Tony Blair has made
it..has confirmed what I've said and that Peter Mandelson in your earlier clip
has also confirmed that, that individuals are free to give their own comments,
to voice their own opinions, to ask awkward questions, no-body has attempted to
gag them, it's not a question of discipline or enforcement at all.
HUMPHRYS: Well I'm sorry..I am..
DAVIES: I am saying that in Wales here we have a
very clear election commitment and I hope, and I will express this view, I hope
that every individual member of the Labour Party, will understand that and will
strive to achieve unity so that we can deliver the yes vote in the Autumn.
HUMPHRYS: Well let's try to draw a line under it
then by being absolutely clear because you seem to me to say two things in that
answer. One that the disciplinary path is still open, the other that it is
closed. So can I be quite clear that there is no question, notwithstanding what
was said earlier this week and not withstanding everything that Llew Smith
believed that you said to him. There is no question if he campaigns against a
yes vote, there will be no disciplinary action taken against him - full stop -
does that draw a line under it?
DAVIES: Those are not matters for me. You'll
have to ask-
HUMPHRYS: Well-But, you can't have it both ways,
Mr Davies?
DAVIES: Well, I'm not having it both ways.
You're putting questions to me. What I've said is that we have a very clear
set of standing orders of the Parliamentary Labour Party. I've made it
abundantly clear and I'll repeat yet again there's no question of gagging
individuals. And, I hope now that everybody understands that the Labour Party
- as it always has done - stands for free speech and individual Members of the
Labour Party are entitled to exercise that free speech. There's never been any
question of that - to the contrary.
HUMPHRYS: Well, why, then, why did you say what
you said on Tuesday about the possibility of action being taken by the
Parliamentary Labour Party?
DAVIES: Because the standing orders of my job.
The standing orders of the Parliamentary Labour Party make that absolutely
clear and if you want to talk about the generality, you can talk about the
generality. The standing orders of the Labour Party set down a set of
procedures to be followed. They give certain rights to individuals and they
put certain responsibilities on those individuals.
HUMPHRYS: And, you, at least, opened the
possibility that those standing orders would be a vote. I mean, you have
standing orders, it doesn't mean you've got to take action as a result of
them. You can either ignore them or you can do something with them. Now, you
were saying quite clearly on Tuesday: if they fail to show loyalty, we would
have to look- we would have to look - at the action that would be available to
us.
DAVIES: What I'm-
HUMPHRYS: Are you still saying the same thing?
That's what I'm trying to clear up.
DAVIES: What I was saying on Tuesday is what I'm
saying now. The standing orders of the Parliamentary Labour Party are quite
clear. They give the right to individuals to express themselves freely and
nobody's challenging that. The standing orders also say that when you're
exercising those rights, you act in accordance with the principles of the
Parliamentary Party.
HUMPHRYS: Well, but you said - I'm sorry to bang
on about this - but you've-
DAVIES: No, no. I really think we ought to talk
about the wider issues of this.
HUMPHRYS: -you wanted to-Well you wanted to draw a
line. And, we're going to do that. But, you wanted to draw a line under it
and I'm anxious to do the same. What you were saying on Tuesday was we would
have to look at the action that would be available. Now, are you saying this
morning: we don't actually have to look at this at all. We can let people
like Llew Smith say what he wants to say right up to the moment that the vote
has been taken and that's an end of it. We shall hear no more about it. It's
like me saying: you will not have to look at the standing orders at all.
DAVIES: As far as the individual Members of the
Party are concerned and this applies to Members of the Labour Party in the
Parliamentary Labour Party, they're perfectly entitled to express their view.
They're perfectly entitled in the House of Commons and elsewhere to ask awkward
questions and to exercise their choice of freedom of speech. There has never
been any question at all about that. The standing orders of the Parliamentary
Party, however, apply to me, apply to every other Member of the Parliamentary
Labour Party and they put into a context the way in which those rights to
freedom of speech should be exercised.
HUMPHRYS: And, you will not be arguing for action
to be taken. You, personally, will not be arguing for action to be taken
against Llew Smith or anybody else who says: let's vote No?
DAVIES: Not on the basis of exercising a free
speech. I've made that clear for the last five or ten minutes.
HUMPHRYS: OK. Good!
Now, the Tories are saying that you
ought to make a statement. Apparently, Mr Hague wants to make a big thing out
of this and he wants you to make and others want you to make a statement in the
House of Commons tomorrow because they say that you did lie about this and that
somebody's been telling lies. The Prime Minister got involved in it - one way
or the other. Are you going to make a statement in the House tomorrow?
DAVIES: Well, I'm actually in Mold at the
meeting at the Welsh-meeting of the Welse Grand Commitee in Mold on Monday.
HUMPHRYS: Well, how about the next day, then? How
about Tuesday?
DAVIES: I, certainly have no proposals to go to
the House of Commons on Tuesday. These allegations have been made about private
conversations - not meetings, incidentally. I haven't had a meeting with
Llew Smith to discuss these things. I have had a conversation - several
conversations - with him but let me just make it absolutely clear that any
suggestion that I threaten to invoke disciplinary procedures, that I threatened
to kick people of the Parliamentary Labour Party is just, frankly, fantasy. I
don't have those powers. Neither would I want those powers. I have-I have more
than an interesting task in piloting Wales into our new democracy, without
wanting to exercise draconian powers on behalf of anybody else - I can assure
of that.
HUMPHRYS: Right. So, you didn't mislead the Prime
Minister?
DAVIES: Most certainly not - no. There were a
number of allegations.
HUMPHRYS: You talked to him?
DAVIES: Of course, I spoke to the Prime
Minister. There were a number of allegations which had been made by Llew
Smith - not to me directly. I-I, actually, investigated them and I wrote to
him three weeks or so ago to make it clear that there was no substance in the
allegation that he was making and I, also, invited him to discuss it with me
further, if he was concerned.
HUMPHRYS: And, you're not going to consider your
resignation over this?
DAVIES: Well, why should I?
HUMPHRYS: Well, the Tories say you should because
you lied and Llew Smith seems to think you did as well.
DAVIES: I, really, hope that we're not going to
spend the whole of this interview talking about these matters. I want to get
off. Let me just say: there were two people present in that conversation -
myself and Llew Smith. I can give you an absolute categorical undertaking that
there was no question of me threatening or being intimidating in any way
whatsoever. Neither did I threaten to invoke any power that I certainly don't
have.
HUMPHRYS: Alright. Let's look at the broader
reasons why you're in this pickle, at the moment, then. And, that is because
you have a policy on devolution as Terry Dignan reported in that film that
doesn't really please anybody- really please anybody properly, does it? I
mean, there are those who want to go much further. They want the Welsh
Assembly to have powers to raise taxes and to make laws, primary legislations
and so on and there are those who don't want any part of it. You've gone to
this sort of middle course which doesn't seem to please anybody, really?
DAVIES: Well, let me say I don't regard myself
as being in a pickle in this matter. The Labour Party in Wales has spent three
years now developing a set of proposals which have been very carefully worked
through. We'll be putting those in a White Paper in a couple of weeks' time
now, and they do represent I believe, certainly it's a middle way, but there's
nothing necessarily wrong with the middle way you know if the extremes either
side are unworkable, and the extremes that we are being offered are either the
status quo and continual rule by John Redwood or whoever, or on the other hand
complete independence. And what we've managed to do is to construct a very
very balanced set of proposals which will allow us to achieve the objectives
that we want, to democratise Wales, to deal with the quangos to improve our
economic performance, certainly to make sure that we improve the standards of
our schools, the quality of health care and so on. Our proposals will allow a
real voice for Wales, will allow decisions to be taken in Wales to improve the
quality of our public services, and I think that's a very very substantial
achievement.
HUMPHRYS: But what they're saying - the opponents
- is that that middle way as you describe it is unworkable, for instance, when
they want to do all the things that you've just talked about, improving schools
and health and all the rest of it, they might say "We need more money, we want
to raise some of our own taxes". They won't be able to.
DAVIES: Yes, and let me make this point, each
and every one of those people that you've spoken to, with the exception of the
outright opponents of devolution, each and every one of those people you spoke
to in the film are actively involved at the moment in getting a yes vote. It
is the case that some people would prefer to go further. I understand that,
but that isn't the view of the Labour Party. We have a view which has been
through our internal review process, it's been to conference, it was endorsed
unanimously by the last Party Conference. Over ninety-five per cent of the
members endorsed it by means of a ballot. We won thirty-four out of forty
seats in the General Election on the basis of our manifesto commitment, and we
would be fighting now to win a yes vote. And I understand that the proposals
don't go quite as far as some people would like, but those people I can assure
you will be campaigning vigorously for a yes vote, because they realise that
the status quo, going back to the days where all decisions about Wales were
taken in London, where we didn't have a voice, where we couldn't decide our own
priorities on health and education and so on, those days have gone. We really
must move forward now for a new democratic progressive Wales.
HUMPHRYS: But this assembly you'd accept wouldn't
you, is inevitably going to evolve as time goes by. Isn't it equally
inevitable given that you stay in power, that it will evolve into something
more powerful, because all bodies want a little more power for what they want
to do and believe that they ought to do.
DAVIES: Well, by the very nature of things you
can't forecast what devolution is going to bring. What we can do is to look
back, we can look at the way since nineteen-sixty-four that powers have accrued
to the Welsh Office. We can certainly do that, and it's interesting you know,
that the governments of both political persuasions Labour and Conservative have
allowed this process of devolution to continue. The last Conservative
government put new powers into the Welsh Office, albeit under the control of
the Member of Parliament for Reading and for Richmond in Yorkshire. But they
allowed this process of devolution to go forward. It is important now I
believe that we put that existing devolution under democratic control. That's
what I want to do, and it will be a matter for the future to see how the
balance is readjusted between Westminster and Cardiff, and indeed presumably
Edinburgh as well. But that's a matter for the future. What we must do now,
and these are the only proposals we have, what we must do now is to democratise
those existing arrangements, give a real voice for Wales, make sure that
decisions in Wales are taken by the representatives of Wales reflecting Welsh
values, improve education, improve health care. That's what our proposals are
about now, and I'm confident that when we can put those arguments to the people
we will have a resounding yes vote in September in the referendum.
HUMPHRYS: But you could try placing yourself in
one of those seats that we saw earlier in Cardiff City Hall, soon no doubt to
be the seat for the Welsh Assembly, and the members of that assembly saying: so
far, so good, let us now move on. And that's inevitable isn't it?
DAVIES: I don't know, and I'm not going to get
drawn into forecasting what might happen in five, ten or fifteen years' time.
What I'm saying ....
HUMPHRYS: I'm not looking that far ahead.
DAVIES: Well, let me look to the immediate
future then. We have very carefully worked through proposals. We put those in
various policy documents which we published before the General Election. What
the Labour Party is offering now, and what we will be offering in our White
Paper is what we're offering. There's no hidden agenda, nobody is giving a nod
and wink to anybody while you vote for this and there'll be something more
round the corner. That isn't the case. We're putting our proposals to the
people of Wales. I believe, I personally believe that they are right, that
they meet the problems that we have at the moment, they meet the needs of the -
right at the end of the Twentieth Century as we move towards the Millenium our
proposals will ensure that we have a democratic Wales with a real voice to take
us into the next century.
HUMPHRYS: But we're going to see a Scottish
parliament aren't we? And Scotland's going to have its tax-raising powers,
it's going to have the ability to pass primary legislation - now I know you
will tell me that the system in Scotland is different, that they already have
many..
DAVIES: I will tell you....
HUMPHRYS: Yes, of course, and they have many more
powers ... but nonetheless when that assembly is sitting in Cardiff people are
going to looking at what's happening North of the border, and say: hang on,
we're a nation as well, and we're proud of our nation, and we've got this
assembly now, dammit we're going to want more, we're going to want to be able
to - parish council!. As the Prime Minister reminded us during the election
campaign - a parish council in England can raise taxes, we can't.
DAVIES: There will be a Scottish Parliament in
Scotland reflecting the existing constitutional arrangements between Scotland
and Westminster, and those proposals have been through the consultative
process, they will be contained in the White Paper and the Scottish people will
be invited to vote on those proposals. We have our own proposals in Wales
which address the current relationship that we have between Wales and the
Westminster parliament. There are many other things that we need to do, to
democratise the quangos, to take control of the Welsh Office budget at the
moment to reflect our priorities, to give a real voice for Wales. These are
the important things at the moment, and what I am suggesting is that the
balance that we have now is the right balance. At some time in the future it
may well be that there will be adjustments between Cardiff and Westminster, and
that's fine. That would just relect what's happened over the last thirty
years.
HUMPHRYS: Sot it might go further?
DAVIES: What I'm saying is that the balance
might be readjusted, there may well be things which are done in Cardiff at the
moment which are better done in London.
HUMPHRYS: What about your own role in all of this.
It's been reported in the papers this morning that you're going to be rather
marginalised because of the fuss over this past week.
DAVIES: Well, I'm not sure who's telling you
those things, but I'm confident that the campaign we're going to fight here in
Wales will be a vigorous campaign. I'm in charge of the strategy of it. I
look very much forward to the coming weeks in playing a high profile role, but
I also know that the Prime Minister and other Cabinet colleagues will be coming
down to Wales assisting us in winning a yes vote, and I think that's good and
it's very important. I think it's very important by the way, to put what's
happening in Wales in the context of wider devolution and de-centralisation,
democratisation throughout the whole of the United Kingdom, and it's for that
reason that I very much look forward to colleagues from England and Scotland
coming down to assist us in our campaign.
HUMPHRYS: Ron Davies, thanks very much indeed for
joing us.
DAVIES: Thank you very much John.
...ooOoo...
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