................................................................................
ON THE RECORD
DONALD DEWAR INTERVIEW
RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 16.3.97
................................................................................
JOHN HUMPHRYS: And I was talking to Brian Mawhinney an
hour or so ago, and in our Glasgow studio now is Donald Dewar, the Labour
Party's Chief Whip, the man who'll play a vital role in the campaign.
Good afternoon Mr Dewar.
DONALD DEWAR MP: Good afternoon indeed.
HUMPHRYS: Is Mr Blair going to accept this
invitation from Mr Major?
DEWARD: Yes. Dr Mawhinney can be absolutely
certain that Mr Blair will be there. We've been pressing for this debate for
some time. It was orginally a challenge from Tony Blair and I'm very pleased
that Conservatives, I suspect for campaigning reasons and because they've been
looking at the opinion polls, have decided they've got to take the risk. My
one worry is that we may spend far too much time arguing about the mechanics of
the debate and who should be in it and not enough looking at the policies that
ought to be debated.
HUMPHRYS: Let's just deal with those mechanics
now, since it's a new idea this, or at least new from Mr Major's point of view.
We had Dr Mawhinney there saying he was happy to have..Mr Major was happy to
have two or more debates. Wants them to be long ones, wants them to be sensible
ones, wants there to be cross-examination between the two leaders -
head-to-head. What do you think about that?
DEWAR: Well I'm certainly in favour of a debate
that has give and take, where there is room for genuine debate. And where it
doesn't become a static and somewhat stilted ritual which I think has been the
case with some of the American presidential election debates in recent times.
But we're obviously going to have to talk about the format. We're obviously
going to talk to the broadcasters about the format and hopefully it will not be
too difficult to reach an agreement. I'm not so sure about an endless series of
debates. I think the public's appetite may not be insatiable. I think there
will be enormous interest in one or two but I think if you're thinking of a
series then you do get into the presidential territory and I believe it might
be counterproductive.
HUMPHRYS: But more than one?
DEWAR: I don't rule it out. I don't think - we
just this morning heard that Mr Major is prepared to edge into the field so
obviously there have been no discussions. To be an adequate coverage there
mustn't simply be a soundbite contest and that suggests a reasonable amount of
time to debate and we'll obviously look at the options and discuss them
constructively. We want this to take place and one of my concerns is the way
it's been presented this morning by Dr Mawhinney, is that there may be a -
slightly in the back of the mind suspicion - that barriers are being put in the
way which may mean that it doesn't take place at all.
HUMPHRYS: Well let's look at what they may or may
not be and deal with the Liberal Democrats first. Are you happy with the notion
that it should be just Mr Blair versus Mr Major? - no Paddy Ashdown.
DEWAR: I think very important that we have
balance and fairness over the piece and that means we've got to consult a
number of different parties. I...
HUMPHRYS: You don't need to consult you know
exactly what they'll want, they'll want to be in.
DEWAR: I recognise that. I mean we're not
dogmatic about this. I think we will have to see on what basis it can actually
take place. I don't want to end up in court and certainly the Labour Party has
no interest in doing that. I repeat we will be constructive and we will be
flexible. We will have a point of view obviously about the actual mechanics and
the arrangements and the allocation of time and so on. But we don't rule out a
wider debate.
HUMPHRYS: If it didn't go to court, then there'd
be no Paddy Ashdown in it would there because you heard Brian Mawhinney say we
will not debate with Paddy Ashdown.
DEWAR: Well I don't know. I mean I think the
Conservatives may have to do a lot more thinking. I suspect that this has been
produced by the PR machine as a distraction from the rather difficult events at
Bath. The fact that we've had two or three Conservative MPs admitting they
expect defeat. Sir Nicholas Budgen on television saying the West Midlands will
write its own manifesto and one that Mr Major won't like. I think there's a
slight atmosphere of that about the announcement today and we will have to see
what kind of constructive talks, and I hope if the Conservatives are prepared
to genuinely espouse this debate they will be, also prepared to be flexible
about the detail.
HUMPHRYS: But you've no objection then, as I
understand it, in principle, in principle, to Paddy Ashdown being excluded?
DEWAR: I want the debate to take place. I think
the main show will be the evaluation of the performance of the Prime Minister
and the leader of the Opposition. But if you say to me is that something I
would be unprepared to negotiate over, that I would be prepared, as you put it
to Dr Mawhinney simply to do without debates altogether, then I think I would
be reluctant to do that.
HUMPHRYS: Well that's interesting isn't it because
you were quite prepared to go to court with the Liberal Democrats a year or two
ago because they were being - you felt that you were being treated unfairly.
Now here we have a position where many people will say, clearly the Liberal
Democrats are going to be treated unfairly if they're excluded. Why have you
changed your mind on this, a fundamental matter of principle: fairness.
DEWAR: I'm not changing my mind. I've made it
very clear that we're prepared to be flexible and reasonable about it. We don't
want to end up in court. The real barrier clearly, is what Dr Mawhinney has
said to any progress and also the views of Mr Ashdown. We will have to see how
those talks progress, whether Mr Ashdown is prepared to look at other ways of
settling this matter, if the Tories dig in or whether in fact the Tories will
have to dig themselves out of the trench they're in at the moment. Let's see
how that develops. The important thing is that we've established, or we appear
to have established today the principle of a debate and the principle that the
public will be allowed to see and hear the two in direct confrontation and
discussions.
HUMPHRYS: Right. So it's not a principle matter -
a matter of principle as to whether the Liberal-Democrats are included or not?
DEWAR: Well, I think there's got to be an
agreement. I believe that....
HUMPHRYS: You know there's not going to be an
agreement with Paddy Ashdown. Paddy Ashdown is - come on - the idea that
Paddy Ashdown will say: Okay, Mr Blair and Mr Major can go on and have their
debates and I'll sit at home and watch them on the telly. I mean that's just
preposterous isn't it, you know prefectly well, they've already said they'll
fight it.
DEWAR: In that case what you're saying to me is
that Dr Mawhinney's got to change his stance or there will be no debate. Now I
would be very sorry to accept that kind of entrenched position on it. If there
is going to be a broadening of it and that makes it easier to have it,
facilitates it, then so be it. If we can make arrangements in other ways with
other parties because it's not just Mr Ashdown. I'm very conscious of the fact
that there will be other parties with an interest in this, then clearly we'll
have to talk to them as well.
HUMPHRYS: And one of the other parties that will
be interested in it of course is the SNP in your own nation of Scotland.
They're going to..Alex Salmon is going to want to be a party to all this as
well. What's your view on that?
DEWAR: Well I quite understand that. It may be
that we can make arrangements to do it at two levels, a United Kingdom level
and a Scottish level. Certainly the SNP are not going to be starved of
television coverage during this campaign. I think that's self-evident, and
neither should they be because they've got a significant support in Scotland.
But look, we are as I say at the beginning of this. It may be that the
broadcasters themselves, they're going to have to be the honest brokers. They
are above all have an interest in delivering this debate, and we will have to
see how the negotiations proceed. The important point is that we've got to the
starting line in a way that some of us didn't expect and we should seize that
opportunity.
HUMPHRYS: So we might have a sort of Premier
League and First Division of debates might we?
DEWAR: Well, I think we're going to have an
awful lot of debates during this election at almost every level in politics.
Some of the public without quite my appetite for politics may think that their
screens have been hijacked and taken over, so there's got to be a balance in
that as well.
HUMPHRYS: I suppose that is possible. Let's have
a look at what Mr Major may be taxing - and I use the word advisedly - taxing
Mr Blair with, when, if these debates happen. He is going to say, I suspect:
Look, you've told us that you're not going to raise income taxes, made that
absolutely clear for the next couple of years no raised income tax. However no
pledge not to raise other taxes - therefore can we not assume, he will say,
that you're going to stick up National Insurance for a start.
DEWAR: No, he can't make that assumption and
indeed he shouldn't, although malice may well lead him, or desperation may lead
him to make all sorts of charges. Dr Mawhinney is certainly not above that.
But what we've said is that we've given a pledge on direct income tax which is
important and a sensitive political issue, and we've made it clear that we're
going to run a very tight ship when it comes to fiscal policy. We're not going
to borrow simply for consumption, but only for investment, we're going to have
tough inflation and interest rate targets, and I think that's absolutely right,
because if you don't get the public finances in good shape, and if you don't
get sustainable growth in the economy, then the end product I'm afraid is that
whatever good intentions you may have in the social field you won't be able to
deliver. So what you've got to do in fact is social objectives which buttress
economic progress. The two go together and that's what takes us on to for
example our promises particularly on youth unemployment, because if you can
stop funding through the DSS budget the massive social casualties of the last
few years then you're obviously going to be getting people opportunity to help
themselves and to help the community at the same time.
HUMPHRYS: Yes, but you see the reason I raised
National Insurance in particular, was because you and John Smith five years ago
thought it a very good idea to raise more money through National Insurance.
Now you have not ruled that out this time. You have ruled out rises in the
rates of Income Tax, so therefore we'd be right to think wouldn't we, this is a
way of raising money for those things that you think have to be done.
DEWAR: No, you wouldn't be right, and if I
started going through, if I answered that question then you'd go on to the next
one and the next one and .....
HUMPHRYS: Ah, but you've answered some, you see.
It's not as if you're a virgin in this matter.
DEWAR: How we're going to do it? We're going
to do it by some extent, of course, by switching expenditure within the present
totals. We talked about the assisted places schemes. The switch from
bureaucracy in the Health Service to frontline health care to improved social
services. We've made it clear that if we can take two hundred and fifty
thousand people off the dole queue, people under twenty-five and off welfare
and into work, then we will be doing a lot for the public finances and for our
own ability to, in fact, tackle some of the social problems of the country.
We're going to do it in that way
responsibly. I think, really one of the great achievements of the Labour Party
in opposition - and we've been in opposition a long time and we sometimes
failed this test in the past. But this time we resisted the temptation to look
for popularity by making easy promises and what we've said is her, is
interlinking sensible coherent strategy and we're going to keep to it and we're
asking people to believe that. And, if you look at Wirral South, if you look
at the polls - not just today's twenty-six per cent lean but the twenty-four
and twenty-five per cent of recent polls, people are clearly responding and
that's why we're confident about the Election - not just because we've got a
poll lead now but because there's been a response to positive campaigning and
realistic policies which the Labour Party will continue to espouse.
HUMPHRYS: Yes but you see it might also be because
you're not being absolutely open with them, as you say. You have ruled out
some things, you have gone as far as saying there will not be these increases
in Budgets - it's fine. And people may then have the impression that that
means no tax rises but they'd be quite wrong to think that wouldn't we? After
all, your own Shadow Cabinet colleagues Michael Meacher has told us that Mr
Brown and I quote from his very own words. Mr Brown was very careful not to
exclude other forms of tax. So, it's not as bleak in his terms. It's not as
bleak as it seems.
DEWAR: Well, at the end you cannot say that in
a five-year period there are going to be no adjustments ever. But, we have
certainly no plans. We've got a coherent strategy, where I've explained to you
how we tackle the social problems and build a stronger economy for the future.
It fits together well. People must make their judgment about that but I
believe that it does. And there is absolutely no deception about it. I mean
when I describe this to you, it is what I believe that we will implement and
what I'm sure Gordon Brown will set his hand to. And, you're going to get what
you see.
There is no deception here and of
course, it's a very odd thing. I mean, people say to the Labour Party why
can't you rule out any form of adjustment ever but no one would think of asking
Kenneth Clarke that or the Government of the day.
HUMPHRYS: Well that's because Kenneth Clarke
hasn't said to us-
DEWAR: If they did they'd get a very short,
sharp reaction.
HUMPHRYS: Yes, but Kenneth Clark hasn't said we're
not going to raise Income Tax or we wouldn't if we were in power - raise Income
Tax in the next two years - you have. You know, you say it's not deception. I
didn't use the word deception. You used the word deception. But I mean that's
what some people may think you're about.
DEWAR: I can't ask you a question John but if I
could I would ask you that the fact that Mr Clark hasn't said he won't raise
Income Tax does that mean he's going to do it immediately?
HUMPHRYS: Ah, but you see you ask that because I
have raised that specific point with you. You have said we'll not raise this
tax. You haven't said we won't raise another tax and the reason why some
people, at any rate, are concerned about this is because you, the Labour Party,
has a reputation as being a big spender when you're actually in power. You've
always believed in spending on high quality public services. You've always
said that's..one of the reasons the Labour Party is there. You are under huge
pressure now from many of your own supporters to deliver on that, to spend more
on those services that you, yourselves, say have been starved in the past.
And, that's why you're going to have to push the tax rates up in other areas.
DEWAR: We have set out what we're going to do,
we've set out our policy and we're going to hold to it. I want to make that,
underline that very, very heavily, indeed. We believe that we can, also, of
course, make social progress but only on the basis of sustainable growth and a
healthy economy. So, that is the first platform on which we have to achieve
and on which we build and that's what we are intend to do.
If you're saying to me that I ought to
be worried by the fact that on one hand Dr Mawhinney is saying that we are
spendthrifts and irresponsible and, at the same time, the Conservative Party is
saying that we've got an iron Shadow Chancellor who won't give an inch and
won't give a dime to anyone, the answer is, of course, it's between the two and
they switch between them in a confusing and illogical fashion.
The fact is that we have, to some
extent, I think, shot their fox because what we are doing is responsibly
describing an economic policy which will help British industry, which will
build for the future and yet keeps very much on the agenda our social..our
social progress aims.
HUMPHRYS: Well, maybe, but look there you are
sitting in Glasgow, even as we speak. Now, you know better than I do that the
pressure's building there. Glasgow is saying, the City Council is saying: we
haven't got enough money from Government to do the things we need to do. We've
had to sack fifteen hundred Council workers, we've had to push the local taxes
way through the ceiling. Now, we don't want to do that and when our Government
gets into power, when Labour gets into power, they're going to help us so we
don't do these terrible things. Are you sitting there this morning and saying:
nope, we ain't going to help you.?
DEWAR: I will say exactly what we've said to
them and we've stood that pressure and I understand the frustrations. I
understand that these Councillors are between a rock and a hard place, having
to take very unpleasant decisions but what we've said: until we get the public
finances right and in good order we're going to have to live within the limits
that have been set for the Budget and we've done that. We haven't courted
popularity, we have seen people protesting but we've done it because we thought
it was right and because we believe in the longer term it will allow us to help
the people of Glasgow, or the people of Liverpool, or the people of Manchester
or London very much more certainly than if we give into pressure now and do
things that we believe follow policies that we believe that we can't in our
heart of hearts justify.
HUMPHRYS: Right. So, when you walk out of that
studio that morning, if there happens to be a little demonstration or something
and they say: Come on, Mr Dewar, we need your help, we need your help, you will
say: you've been between a rock and a hard place. We're the new hard place -
watch it?
DEWAR: I'm going to leave this studio to go
down to meet a group of my constituents who are very, very concerned -
understandably - about the impact of these cuts that are being enforced. I'm
going to try and talk it through. I'm going to try and make sure that my
influence is for the right sort of priorities being preserved within the very
difficult economic passage but if you say to me: are you going to promise them,
soft soap them and say, in some way, we can escape from this my answer is going
to be: No, I am not.
HUMPHRYS: Donald Dewar, thank you very much,
indeed.
...oooOooo...
|