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ON THE RECORD
GEORGE ROBERTSON INTERVIEW
RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION: BBC ONE DATE: 25.4.99
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JOHN HUMPHRYS: But first, Kosovo. The Nato summit
is finishing today with a re-assessment of how to use ground forces AND an agreement
to stop oil getting into Yugoslavia... AND a decision to escalate even further the
air attacks. Is there a danger that this whole thing is getting out of control? How
would Russia, for instance, react if we were stop their ships carrying oil? The Defence
Secretary George Robertson is in Washington for the summit.
Mr Robertson the
Russians have already said they will not respect this oil embargo. Are we seriously
saying that if push came to shove we would use force to stop their ships?
GEORGE ROBERTSON: Well, the Russians are saying that they
will ignore the embargo but up to now they have respected the embargo and arms through
that part of the world and I don't think that the Russians at the present moment
want a confrontation and all the indications that we have had from the Russians at
all levels is that they don't wish to become engaged in this so I think the idea
of refuelling the Serb military machine is not really on the Russian agenda at the
present moment.
HUMPHRYS: Well you say that but Mr Ivanov
the Foreign Minister said yesterday that this embargo will be respected only by
or applies indeed only to NATO Members
ROBERTSON: Well the NATO Members felt very strongly
and not just the NATO members but the wider partnership for peace nations as well
and that's forty four Nations that there was something ironic not to say inconsistent
with the idea that you stop the fuel supplies inside Serbia and Kosovo, you destroyed
the refineries so that the military machine would run out of fuel but at the same
time fuel was still coming in through the Adriatic ports of Montenegro so we've put
in place now certain procedures which will be worked on over the next few days, we're
not saying how they will apply because that would be to give Milosevic sensitive
information and we have to take account of the legalities and the practicalities
as well but we intend to make sure that we choke off these war supplies on which
the killing machine in Kosovo depends.
HUMPHRYS: But you can't, can you. You simply
cannot do that if what you're saying is we will not confront the Russians. You cannot
do that. The Russians have made it perfectly clear - put aside the arms embargo,
that's another matter altogether - the Russians have made it perfectly clear that
they can legally continue to supply oil to Belgrade.
ROBERTSON: Their assertion that they can legally
do it is different from their intention to do it or the likelihood that they would
try to do it........
HUMPHRYS: ...but they've said they won't.......
ROBERTSON: ...and I think that the connections that
they have with the, well the Russians have made it clear all along that they don't
want to get involved in this confrontation. They have shown by their actions that
they are not intending to get involved in this confrontation so you have to presuppose
that they would go out there and make a deliberate attempt to break into the Ports
of Montenegro in order to supply this oil and none of the indications, none of the
performers up to now suggest that they will do that.
HUMPHRYS: But that isn't what they would
have to do is it. They would simply have to carry on doing what they have been doing
until now. If that happens and there is no indication that they had been supplying
oil and there is no indication that they will stop doing so. If they continue to
do so will NATO board their ships and stop them, that's the question.
ROBERTSON: What, what that is the question to which
at the present moment I'm not giving you any answer. The reality is .....
HUMPHRYS: So it's possible
ROBERTSON: ...that they have not up to now chosen
to confront us in the battle that is going on inside Yugoslavia, they recognise as
they did right at the very beginning that what President Milosevic is doing in Kosovo
has as many implications for them as it has for us. That ethnic cleansing is no
more palatable to people in Moscow than it is to people in Washington or in London
and that they are not going to get engaged on Milosevic's side so the whole of your
hypothesis is built on the Russians deciding to have a confrontation when all of
their performance over the last four weeks is that they don't want to have that confrontation.
HUMPHRYS: But what you're saying that is
that if they do decide and you don't know whether they will or not and certainly
on the basis of what they have said formally it suggests that they will continue
to do so, if they do so, you are saying that you have not ruled out the possibility
that you would use force one way or the other to stop them doing so.
ROBERTSON: Well we haven't said anything of the sort.
We haven't said anything definitive on it. What we have said is that the countries
of NATO and of the wider partnership for peace are not going to be involved in supplying
Yugoslavia with oil that keeps the killing machine in Kosovo going on, keeps the
momentum of ethnic cleansing up, keeps the revitalisation of the military machine
ongoing that they are not going to do that. Now we have got a continuing dialogue
with Russia and whatever Russia says in public, whatever the noises that are made
from certain elements in there, Russia signed up last October to the Security Council
resolution that called for an end to the violence, the start of a political process
and the removal of the troops from Kosovo. So you've got to take on one hand the
words that are being used at the present moment and the actual performance on the
ground and we will see then what happens.
HUMPHRYS: As far as ground forces are concerned,
Madeleine Albright said this morning that NATO is updating its planning. Now does
that mean that we have changed our view or are in the process of considering changing
our view about not sending them in if there is a risk of them being shot at?
ROBERTSON: It means that we're updating the planning
that was done at the very beginning to take account of a changed situation inside
Kosovo caused by Milosevic, a changed situation caused by the degradation of the
Yugoslav forces by the air attacks that have taken place and by the general situation
that applies in the Balkans. It is absolutely sensible that when we are involved
in a conflict of such seriousness that we should if necessary re-visit some of the
initial assumptions and that is what NATO has decided to do. It hasn't decided to
do any more than that. It hasn't decided to do any less either.
HUMPHRYS: So in other words the answer to
the question is 'Yes', we may send ground forces in even if we are going to be confronted
by Yugoslav forces, by Serb forces?
ROBERTSON: No we've quite clearly said that there
is not going to be a wholesale or forced invasion of Kosovo. That has been our position
consistent.......
HUMPHRYS: No but you've been changing your
position all the time haven't you? It's been shifting all the time.
ROBERTSON: No, that position remains entirely consistent
from the beginning and it remains the position as it stands at the moment but what
we've got to take account of is a changed situation inside Kosovo therefore perhaps
a requirement for a greater number of ground troops on the ground as part of the
implementation force than was originally planned for to take account of these changes
but we're also looking at the basis on which we took the decision about ground troops
in the first place. We chose air attacks. We are confident that air attacks are
making the difference inside Kosovo and Yugoslavia. They are going to be increased
and intensified but all we're saying is that we came to a conclusion having looked
at all of these options that we should revisit these options after four weeks of
the air campaign.
HUMPHRYS: And one of the options, one of
the options, is going in even if there is some resistance?
ROBERTSON: Well obviously that was one of the options
at the beginning so.....(both speaking at once)
HUMPHRYS: No it wasn't. You always said
absolutely the opposite to that. No question of it you said and Robin Cook and the
Prime Minister......
ROBERTSON: No it was a planned option..... yeah that
was the decision taken after the options were examined after all of the planning
had been done. NATO decided that there would be no wholesale opposed invasion into
Kosovo and that we would rely on air attacks to disrupt the violence and to weaken
the machine, the military machine of Milosevic that was causing the violence, so
we chose one option out of a series of options and the Secretary General has now
been directed by NATO to look at the original options to see whether they still stand
up to examination or whether they might need to be changed.
HUMPHRYS: Are we going to be consulting the
Russians about this if we decide to send ground forces in, in the face of opposition
will we be saying to the Russians 'Look, this is what we're doing. What are your
views on it?'
ROBERTSON: Well the Russians can see perfectly clearly
that we're looking at these options and there is a permanent connection ongoing with
the Russians. The Russians have been involved in all of the discussions right up
to the beginning of the air attacks and that consultation, that dialogue goes on.
HUMPHRYS: Do the Russians have a veto?
ROBERTSON: No they don't have a veto, no, and neither
does Milosevic but the Russians are involved in these discussions, we keep them briefed
and as I've pointed out to you the channels of communication that we have had have
indicated that the Russians do not wish to get involved on the side of Milosevic.
HUMPHRYS: George Robertson, thank you very
much indeed for that.
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