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ON THE RECORD
GERRY ADAMS INTERVIEW
RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 24.5.98
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JOHN HUMPHRYS: But first, inevitably, Northern Ireland.
Yesterday was the time for celebrations for those who believe that the vote
marks a new start - the biggest step on the road to a permanent peace for a
generation or more. But now there are many questions to be asked about the next
step and the one after that, and the one after that. On June 25th the people
of Northern Ireland will vote for an Assembly. That Assembly will then elect an
Executive which will ultimately take over the running of Northern Ireland. But
before that can happen the Unionists must be satisfied that the War really is
over for the IRA. Otherwise they will not sit alongside Sinn Fein in that
Executive. The two key figures in all this are David Trimble, the Leader of the
Ulster Unionists, and Gerry Adams, the leader of Sinn
Fein.
Mr Adams, may I begin with you? A very
simple question: is the War over?
GERRY ADAMS: Well that's what Sinn Fein's peace
strategy is about. As you said in your opening remarks and I think you had it
very accurately, it's the next step and a next step and the step after that.
So the conflict resolution, part of this process, is only just beginning. I
want to see the War over. I made the point yesterday that I was confronted by
armed men yesterday in my Constituency. Those armed men were in the uniform of
the British Army and of the RUC. The huge militarisation of the situation,
especially in Republican areas, needs to be reversed. And we need to keep
moving ahead and I think the Ulster Unionist Party need to contemplate sitting
down and talking to Sinn Fein if they have genuine fears about these issues.
They need to sit down and talk to us about them. So that in the partnership -
because that's what people voted for - they voted for a partnership to shape
and to share the future of this island and for all of the people to be part of
that on the basis of equality.
HUMPHRYS: And that's a point that I will be
putting to David Trimble and if I want to talk about British troops I will
talk to the British Government. But at the moment, I'm asking you, because of
your relationship with the IRA, whether, as far as the IRA is concerned, the
war is over, and if not why not? What is there to fight for now, when people
North and South have voted for an end to it?
ADAMS: Well if you would put questions about
the British Army to the British Government and questions about the Unionists to
the Unionists, then put questions, John, with respect, about the IRA to the
IRA.
HUMPHRYS: Well I can't do that-
ADAMS: Let me finish please-
HUMPHRYS: - and you know fine that I can't do
that. But you have a clear relationship with the IRA.
ADAMS: No let me finish. Let's not turn this
into a squabble on what is-is, you know, the first day, hopefully, of-of-of a
new beginning here. And let's start off by being sensible John. Don't be
interrupting me.
HUMPHRYS: Well, no, no, that's what I want to do.
ADAMS: But you're interrupting me.
HUMPHRYS: But you clearly have an influence-
ADAMS: Sorry?
HUMPHRYS: - with the IRA and that is what I'm
asking you. Whether you will use that influence that you have with the IRA to
say to them: look, the war is now over, we move on?
ADAMS: Well first of all. I intend to continue
to use the influence which I have on everyone who's prepared to listen to me. I
think if you look at the record all of these initiatives came from Nationlists
and Republicans. Sinn Fein has played a leadership role in creating this
situation. I would love the other armed groups to follow the example of the
IRA, which has called not just one but two cessations which have actually
opened up this whole opportunity for peace. Now, all of the mechanisms that are
required-and I was going to make a point earlier about Republicans having
stretched their selves. You know we have stretched ourselves to accepting an
Assembly, which we didn't want. We have tried to put safeguards in place so
that that Assembly at least has some sense of balance because it's the only
route into the all-Ireland bodies. And we're being told now that the Unionists
won't even talk to us and we're being told by those who lost the Referendum
that they are going to go in and wreck that. So you can see, in terms of the
management of all of this, this is a job of political management. We have come
so far, we have an awful lot further to go. But I think the people, when they
voted in both parts of this island, voted for change. They were ahead of a lot
of the political leaders, they voted for dialogue. They voted for no
pre-conditions and all the commitments which I have given and the commitments
which I will give, if we receive a mandate I will honour-
HUMPHRYS: Right.
ADAMS: -in terms of disarmament and in terms of
using our influence.
HUMPHRYS: Ah!
ADAMS: But also in terms of the equality
agenda, of an end to discrimination and social and economic and political
issues, for a proper policing service. For-for all of the rights that need to
be put in place if we are to correct the wrongs on which British rule and
partition has been based.
HUMPHRYS: Right, now you said there that you would
use that influence you have to begin the process - as I understand you -
correct me if I'm wrong - of disarmament, because clearly you are committed to
that in the agreement to which you are a signatory and you've said many times
you cannot cherry pick the bits you like and you don't like from that
agreement. So, therefore, when, using your influence, will we expect to see the
IRA begin the process of disarmament or discommissioning?.
ADAMS: Well first of all it isn't just when I
came to the agreement, that I made a commitment. Many years ago I made a
commitment to try and take the guns, or to take the guns, out of Irish politics
and we will continue to work towards that objective. The licensed weapons, the
Loyalist weapons, the legal weapons, the weapons in the hands of the British
soldiers, and the Republican weapons, all need to be taken out of commission;
all need to be disarmed and done away with as part of the whole general
movement towards Democracy on this island. When will it happen? I don't know
but I can tell you this and I can tell those Unionists who voted Yes yesterday,
that we intend to keep our commitments and we intend to do our best-
HUMPHRYS: Right.
ADAMS: -to create a new democracy on this
island with all of the guns, all of the conflict, all of the atrocity, all of
the semblance of violence removed and a normal society functioning on this
island.
HUMPHRYS: You say you don't know when it will
happen, you don't know when it will happen, so let me ask the other
question,then. When would you like to see it beginning? And I'm talking as
you'll appreciate, because this is your sphere of influence, specifically about
- well you smile at that you see, but this is crucial, and you can understand
why it's crucial.
ADAMS: Excuse me, John. John, go and ask the-
HUMPHRYS: But-
ADAMS: John, ask the ordinary person in the
street here is it crucial? Ask the heads of the RUC and the British Army who
enemies of the IRA is it crucial? And they'll tell you it isn't crucial.
They'll all tell you that they're happy enough that the weapons aren't being
used because this whole nonsense and the reason why-
HUMPHRYS: Ah, well! But you see you-
ADAMS: There you go again. There you go again.
Let me finish the point that I am making. You see in all of this there is
distrust and the distrust is what separates people at this time. And the gap
of distrust has to be bridged and the best way to bridge that gap of distrust
is through dialogue. Nothing should be allowed to become or to be a
pre-condition. Nothing should be allowed to become an obstacle, or people
saying that they were rather the War was back on.
HUMPHRYS: But you-.
ADAMS: Our people are saying that they
would rather-
HUMPHRYS: Well, if you're asking me the question
let me try to answer. You say you can't allow things to be a pre-condition:
but there clearly are pre-conditions and they are spelled out-
ADAMS: No, there aren't, John.
HUMPHRYS: -in the agreement to which you are a
signatory.
ADAMS: No, there aren't, John.
HUMPHRYS: That if you're now saying that actually
we don't need to decommission, so long as we don't use those weapons we can
hold on to them - that's if I may say so an unusual interpretation of that
agreement.
ADAMS: Well, first of all there aren't any
preconditions. Second of all, I don't have any guns. Third of all, I am one
of the people who have put my neck on the line to have the guns silenced. I
live in this island, John. There's an awful lot of arrogance by English people
- commentators like yourself - who are not very well informed about this
situation and who come on and try to lie down some sort of a line for those of
us who live on this island, who want to reach out to our neighbours, who want
to build a better future and who have taken risks and will continue to take
risks so that all of us who live here can live together on the basis of
equality. Now, I recognise, it was I who coined the phrase: take the gun out
of Irish politics. I intend to deliver upon that.
HUMPHRYS: When?
ADAMS: But you! Well, I mean, let's-let's deal
with the reality of what is required. We have got thus far, perhaps when
people like yourself were sceptical. If I had told you five or six years ago
in one of these interviews that we have done periodically that we would have a
situation where people North and South would be voting, that Loyalists and
Republicans and Unionists would be voting on the same ticket, you would have
quite rightly-
HUMPHRYS: Well-
ADAMS: - sceptically, said that that is a
nonsense. But that is what happened and what's important in all of this is
that the prize is now visible for people who live here. The prize is freedom
from all of the conflict, it is freedom from division, and it's people - five
million of us on this island joining together to build the society which
reflects our needs and our desires and-and all of our other rights. Now,
the-the step-by-step process which you correctly, before you got into nonsense,
which you correctly outlined in your opening remarks, are about equality, about
ending discrimination, about shaping out the mechanisms for change because the
status quo cannot stand - it has to be changed. How are we to work all of
that? We-We are very conscious of-of-of the problems that Mr Trimble has, but
Mr Trimble has never spoken to me. You know, you and I at least for all the
combativeness of our interviews - you and I at least are speaking. Mr Trimble
has to accept that what people said the other day means he has to talk to me
and I have to talk to him.
HUMPHRYS: You both have problems, clearly, that's
obvious isn't it? That in the situation that exists in Northern Ireland you
both have problems and this is one of his huge problems.
ADAMS: Well, then, let him talk to me about it!
HUMPHRYS: And, you surely appreciate it. Well he
has problems talking to you for this very reason. Well because, I'll tell you
why, if you want. How can I speak for him? I can talk to him in a minute. But,
you describe what I have-the questions that I've been asking of you, about
decommissioning as nonsense. Well let me remind you again what the Agreement
says-
ADAMS: I know what the Agreement says John.
HUMPHRYS: Let me remind the audience in that case.
'You must use any influence you may have to achieving decommissioning'.
ADAMS: I intend to do that.
HUMPHRYS: And you've spent the last-Well-
ADAMS: How many times do you want me to tell
you I intend to do that? Well, let me-let me raise another question with you.
The big danger now, the big danger now is the Orange Marches. Mr Trimble won't
talk to me. He won't even talk to his Constituents on Garvaghy Road. And the
confidence building measure would be that the dozen or so contentious marches,
including the one on Garvaghy Road, are put off. And the two thousand/three
thousand marches, and I want to say here on this programme, that I uphold the
right of the Orange men to march and I'd say that to Nationalists, I'd say that
to people in host or victim communities who have suffered. I'd say to them:
tolerate it, put up with it. But, I'd say to the Unionist Leaders: Don't go
down Garvaghy Road; make a gesture, build a bit of confidence, show that you're
prepared to-to accept that those triumphantalist marches, those sectarian coat-
trailing marches, the dozen or so which cause grave exception, should not go
ahead at this time. That's the danger, this summer coming up. That the RUC will
batter people, will hack their way through the residents on-on Garvaghy Road.
HUMPHRYS: Right. Well-
ADAMS: And then, if that happens John, come
back then and talk to me about decommissioning.
HUMPHRYS: Well, but let me pursue the thought for
another moment. Do you accept that you cannot be in a working executive
unless, and until, the IRA has begun the process of decommissioning?
ADAMS: No, I do not, for one moment, accept
that those who vote for Sinn Fein will be treated any differently from anyone
else. I will go forward with our Party, contesting all eighteen
Constituencies, and asking citizens here to vote for the Republican position.
If those people vote for our Party they have to be given the same rights as
those who vote for every other Party in this part of the Six Counties.
HUMPHRYS: So, they must know that they are voting
for a Party that is not using its influence to tell the IRA-
ADAMS: But, sure, I've already told you!
HUMPHRYS: ..to get rid of your weapons. No! You've
given me two very contradictory messages-
ADAMS: No, I have not.
HUMPHRYS: -if I may say so.
ADAMS: Well, let me-
HUMPHRYS: On the one hand, you ..Well, let me
tell you what I think you've said in this interview.
ADAMS: No. Well, let me tell you what I've
said - don't be so silly!
HUMPHRYS: Well, I-
ADAMS: Did you have a hard night last night?
HUMPHRYS: Well, I've tried twice, you see. I've
tried twice to get this clear.
ADAMS: Well, I tell you. I intend to use my
influence and our Party is totally committed to using our influence to bringing
about decomissioning of all the weapons in this situation. We want to bring
about a total demilitarisation of the situation. We intend to work at that. I
think, the proof of our commitment on all the matters we have given commitments
on lie in the reality , the opportunity, the potential which is now created.
Now, I can't get any-
HUMPHRYS: Right. And, that includes what? It
includes IRA weapons? That's all I want to be be absolutely clear about.
ADAMS: Of course! All weapons: Loyalist
weapons, British weapons;
HUMPHRYS: Right.
ADAMS: licensed weapons; IRA weapons - all the
weapns.
HUMPHRYS: So, the decomissioning of IRA weapons
must begin and must begin soon. Is that the very simply message that.....
ADAMS: Well, we intend to use our influence.
HUMPHRYS: Yes, indeed. That is the message that
you're delivering.
ADAMS: We intend to use our influence to bring
about a total disarmament, a total decomissioning, a total demilitarisation of
the situation here in the Six Counties.
HUMPHRYS: Because, you see, what Mr Irvine of the
PUP said: We have moved on. The War is over. Quite clear about that!
ADAMS: Well, Mr Irvine speaks for the UVF.
HUMPHRYS: Yes. And, I'm asking you whether you
can speak-
ADAMS: I don't speak for an armed group. I-I
speak for the third largest political party in this British occupied part of my
country, which has a huge garrison of British soldiers, has all the
paraphernalia of war and we're not even into the conflict resolution phrase of
the all of this. And this interview, and I mean your viewers will be forgiven
for thinking this is the only issue because we haven't talked about
discrimination. We haven't talked about the need to put in the equality agenda
in place. We haven't talked about changing the status quo right across a whole
range of issues, social and economic and political. We haven't talked about
human rights matters. We haven't talked about the need for total equality of
treatment on every single matter. And we haven't talked about treating all
citizens on the basis of equality. Now, sometime, John, when you and I talk,
we talk about the future. We talk about how we create that, how myself and Mr
Trimble and others, get together in a partnership. We talk about the
responsibility of the British Government, which in my view shouldn't be in our
country at all. But I do commend the new approach which Mr Blair has brought to
all of this, that that British Government will continue with the momentum,
continue moving the situation forward so that there can be freedom and justice
here on the island of Ireland.
HUMPHRYS: Gerry Adams, many thanks.
ADAMS: Thanks John.
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