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ON THE RECORD
RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 3.11.96
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INTERVIEW WITH WILLIAM HAGUE
But first today -- the state of John
Major's Government. After a successful conference, and a Queen's Speech
designed to put Labour on the defensive, ministers have found themselves --
once again -- trying to limit the damage after some apparent U-turns on
strategy, and open disagreement on how to improve, for example, discipline in
schools. William Hague is the youngest member of the Cabinet, the Welsh
Secretary -- and he's in our Newcastle studio.
Mr Hague, a very good afternoon to you.
WILLIAM HAGUE MP: Good afternoon.
EDWARDS: Welcome to On The Record. You emerged
from Bournemouth from the Party Conference just a few weeks ago. I remember it
well, you were very confident, you were all saying you were back on top of
things, in control. The last two weeks seem to have destroyed, shattered that
impression haven't they.
HAGUE: No I don't think so at all. In fact if
you look at what's been happening in local council by-elections around the
country, the Conservative vote has recovered very strongly and we won a
spectacular victory in North Wales, taking a seat from the Liberal Party ten
days ago. Similar things have happened in the rest of the country, so I think
the Conservative Party, after, as you say, a very successful conference, has
now eneered a much better period. We've seen one or two things, the sort of
things that you've been talking about creating difficulties that I think are
more a matter of media hype in the absence of anything else sensational to
report and getting latched on to particular subjects. But what's going on out
there in the country is that people can see an economy that is improving
rapidly, that is stronger than any other in Europe and they can see that that
will only continue if we continue to have a Conservative Government.
EDWARDS: Well I'm intrigued by the notion that
all your difficulties over the past two weeks Mr Hague are down to media hype.
Surely you must accept, just given what's happened in the last two weeks, that
the impression people are getting is that you are stumbling from pillar to
post. That you are floundering on some of these major issues that you yourself
have chosen and that the Government no longer appears to be in control of
events, if I were to use a more blunt phrase, rather incompetently handling
events.
HAGUE: I don't think that is the impression and
it's certainly not the reality, the Government has brought forward to
Parliament a Queen's Speech which includes some very solid and very needed,
much needed measures that I think will be very popular in the country and that
will be debated in Parliament over the next five months or so, however long it
is, up to the General Election. The economy, as I say, has continued to
improve with some excellent news over the last few weeks, there has been
general praise for the judgments of the Chancellor over the last few weeks and
that is the thing that matters to people most of all. And so I think we will
see, when we see this period in perspective, we will see that there were just
one or two hiccups in what was a general recovery of the Conservative Party.
EDWAWDS: Alright, well let's put one or two of
those hiccups in perspective then. Let me take caning. You won't be shocked to
know that I want to ask you about caning this weekend. Mrs Shephard says she's
in favour of it, the Prime Minister slaps her down and says he's not in favour
of it, it's not Government policy. The Home Secretary says he's in favour of it
in extremist (whatever that is), Robin Squire, another Minister, says he's in
favour of it. Again, an impression of stumbling incompetence.
HAGUE: Well it's not Government policy and it's
not going to change. It is a side issue this whole matter of caning.
EDWARDS: Really.
HAGUE: It could only ever be relevant to about
half a per cent of the school population of this country. What matters for the
other ninety-nine and a half per cent is that we carry on raising educational
standards.
EDWARDS: If it's a side issue Mr Hague, why do
you think that people as senior as Michael Howard and Gillian Shephard feel
they need to give a view on it - which is contrary to Government policy.
HAGUE: They are asked about it and they given
their view on it and this is one of those situations in which politicians can't
win and which people like yourself quite rightly ask us questions, we give an
answer and then they say: why are you talking about this issue.
EDWARDS: With respect Mr Hague, let's face it, if
Mrs Shephard is asked a question on discipline in schools and she volunteers
the view that she thinks that caning isn't such a bad thing after all - which,
by the way isn't Government policy, you can hardly blame people for being
interested in her response can you.
HAGUE: I think the electorate in general are
mature enough to be able to hear people voicing opinions without thinking the
world is coming to an end.
EDWARDS: Trouble is Mr Hague..
HAGUE: The reality of the thing is that the
Government policy on the matter is not going to change, if it did change it
wouldn't get through the House of Commons in any case.
EDWARDS: That's a pledge is it, the policy is not
going to change despite the fact that if we read today's opinion poll the
majority of the public are in favour of a change and, indeed, there are a good
many people on your own backbenches Mr Hague, if you are to believe the words
of Sir Marcus Fox the Chairman of the Backbench Committee in this morning's
papers he says there are a good many of your backbench colleagues who want
change on this and you are saying that the Government won't listen to that.
HAGUE: Well I'm saying we don't have Government
by instant opinion poll. And I wish that some of the commentators on these
subjects could have come with me in the last few weeks around some of the
schools in my own constituency and in Wales, where I have seen some wonderful
achievements. And I think it must be soul destorying to thousands of teachers
and millions of pupils around this country who are achieving ever higher
standards and more of them going on to higher and further edcuation than ever
before to be told that the education system is apparently in a state of anarchy
and out of control. That is just not the case. There are somemore measures
needed to improve discipline in schools and those are going to be in the
Education Bill that we will be taking through Parliament over the next few
months.
EDWARDS: I'm still intrigued Mr Hague by your
notion that this is a side issue, that discipline in schools as manifested by
the Caning Debate is a side issue.
HAGUE: No, no, let's just be clear about that.
I said caning was a side issue, discipline in schools is not a side issue.
EDWARDS: Caning is part of discipline.
HAGUE: Discipline in schools is about good
rules and reward systems. It's about having good head teachers, it's about the
whole ethos of the school and of course about parental responsibility at
home as well and the caning issue is simply one small aspect of the discipline
debate.
EDWARDS: It's quite clear that many of your
colleagues, Mr Hague, think that caning is actually an important element in
the whole concept of discipline. Can you tell us why a friend of yours, I've
no idea who that friend is, a friend of yours is quoted in one of today's
papers as saying that you, personally are in favour of caning but you dare not
say it.
HAGUE: I don't know who that friend is either.
My views are quoted in one of today's papers, on the front page of one of
today's papers as saying exactly what I have just said - it is a side issue, it
is not going to come back in the current Parliament, the Government's policy is
not going to change. But what we are going to do is to take other measures to
improve discipline in schools and what we are going to do is follow through the
success of the National Curriculum and improving choice and diversity in
education to keep having higher educational standards in this country. And
it's time people were ready to celebrate that and congratulate those people who
have great achievements to their credit in education instead of criticising
them and always seeking what is going wrong instead of celebrating what is
going well.
EDWARDS: What you've said Mr Hague is entirely
consistent with the fact that you are privately in favour but are loyally
adopting the Government line.
HAGUE: My view.
EDWARDS: What is your view?
HAGUE: My view is very clear.
EDWARDS: What is your private view?
HAGUE: My view is that the Government's policy
on this matter should not be changed and so anybody who wants to speculate
about my view can stop speculating about it. That is my view and I don't
think it will be changed. If it was changed it wouldn't get through Parliament
and so what we must concentrate on is these other issues. The other actions
that we can take to improve discipline and on holding out as good examples the
countless schools around the country that have done a tremendous job on
discipline and on academic attainment.
EDWARDS: Before I move off, Mr. Hague, definitely
no change in Government policy on caning?
HAGUE: That's what I said.
EDWARDS: All right, fine, thank you very much.
You said earlier that you were not indulging in Government by instant opinion
poll. Can I take you onto another issue which may actually undermine that
thesis of yours - onto combat knives. Now two Sundays ago ministers had no
plans to legislate against combat knives, the next day Mrs Lawrence, the late
headmaster's wife, said that she wanted them banned. You said this wasn't
possible because Civil Servants had difficulty in coming up with a proper
definition. The Opposition Parties then said okay well we can try to come up
with a definition, then you turn round and say well okay perhaps we can try and
find one with you. Now, again, isn't the overwhelming impression one gets, one
of fumbling, stumbling incompetence.
HAGUE: No, I think it's a very clear position.
The Home Secretary has explained that the difficulty in this area is coming up
with a workable definition, how to distinguish between combat knives and knives
which can be held for perfectly proper domestic purposes. Now, if someone can
come up with...that has alluded a generation of Civil Servants with a workable
definition, with a definition which Parliament thinks could work then of course
it could be adopted. But it has proved extremely difficult to do that. Other
people who have called for action on this have had to concede that it is
extremely difficult.
EDWARDS: Well, it is difficult.
HAGUE: It isn't necessary to legislate on it,
incidentally. It could be done by an order under the 1988 Criminal Justice
Act.
EDWARDS: I'm not questioning for a second Mr
Hague that it's difficult coming up with a definition. It patently is very
difficult - that's clearly true. Its perceptions - this problem of perceptions
and the fact that the Government gave us the impression that no action was
possible on it. It's now saying that action may be possible and the fact that
you give us the impression that you were shamed into taking this line, by the
fact that the Opposition Parties were pushing you into it.
HAGUE: Well that certainly, is not the case.
If you look at all the measures taken on law and order over the last few years,
virtually every action that the Government has taken to be tougher on law and
order in this country has been opposed by the Labour Party in the House of
Commons. So we don't have to be defensive about that subject. Here we're
being perfectly straightforward and honest with people and saying it is
difficult to come up with a definition. If you can come up with a definition
which we all think can work, then, let's all look at it. And that's why the
Home Secretary has said he will talk to anybody. He will talk to Opposition
Parties and anybody who wants to discuss it and talk about a definition.
EDWARDS: The trouble is..
HAGUE: That seems to me to be perfectly
straightforward. If Government say whatever people say to us we will never
change our approach. We don't think it's possible ever to change anything,
then people say: well, why are you so pedantic? If you say: well, we are
prepared to consider the position, if somebody can come up with a good idea
then people say: why are you changing your mind?
EDWARDS: Yes.
HAGUE: It is one of those things on which you
can't win. So what we want to do is the best thing for people in this country
and if a workable definition can be found we'll adopt it.
EDWARDS: On an issue of this importance, Mr
Hague, surely it is up to you, as politicians, to demand a way forward and not
parade Civil Service excuses about the difficulties of getting a definition.
And indeed the price you seem to have paid now is that you seem to be
responding to an agenda set by the Opposition Parties. That's part of your
political problem.
HAGUE: Well I'm sure the Home Secretary has
demanded that people working on a definition come up with one if they possibly
can but he still can't invent one if one does not exist. But, he certainly,
the Home Secretary doesn't have to take any lessons in responding to other
people's agendas. He has set the agenda on a tougher approach on law and order
in this country. We have seen some of the biggest falls in the crime rate ever
in history - certainly, in many decades - in the last- in two of the last three
years in this country and that is greatly to his credit. And, again, it is
time for us to reflect on some of what has been achieved, instead of just
looking every week or every day in the newspapers at anything that may have
gone wrong.
EDWARDS: A playful thought- well a semi-playful
thought, Mr Hague: can you imagine Margaret Thatcher presiding over a Cabinet
and accepting this kind of excuse? Wouldn't she have demanded a response? And
she'd have refused to take no for an answer and that is the big difference,
isn't it? You are driven by events and she was driving events.
HAGUE: I don't think that is the difference, at
all?
EDWARDS: Do you not really? Do you really not?
Do you think she'd have taken no for an answer for an issue as big as this?
HAGUE: We all know many occasions on which Mrs
Thatcher took a great deal of advice and quite rightly. She also drove things
forward and John Major has driven things forward in recent years, to make us
into a low inflation economy and one of the countries with one of the best
economic prospects that we have had in the lifetime-
EDWARDS: Come on, Mr Hague.
HAGUE: -of my generation.
EDWARDS: Come on, you can imagine Mrs Thatcher
coming to the House of Commons and saying: sorry, I can't come up with a
definition. It's an issue of great public interest. Lots of people are
worried about it but I'm very sorry I can't come up with a form of words to
deal with it - you can imagine that, can you?
HAGUE: Well, nobody else has managed to come up
with such a form of words so far and we will see if one can be developed.
EDWARDS: Alright.
HAGUE: But I don't think you can fault the Home
Secretary on this matter because he has looked at it very carefully, he has
offered to talk to anybody and that is what politicians are meant to do. That
is an entirely responsible thing to do if you are the Government of this
country.
EDWARDS: There you are Mr Hague, let's turn to
something else that's- well, it's not appeared in the last two weeks, it's been
there for several months. But, certainly there have been other events in the
last two weeks on - beef and your handling of the beef crisis that raise
further questions. Again, this week, we've had a case of some Ministers
seeming to contradict each other on the likelihood of an additional cull, for
example. On this beef issue and in the last two weeks, in particular, are you
satisfied that as a Government you've behaved competently?
HAGUE: Yes, because we are now making
tremendous progress in getting rid of the backlog of cattle to be slaughtered
under the over-thirty-month slaughter scheme. We're giving enormous assistance
of the agricultural industry, tremendous amount of assistance to farmers who
have both genuine difficulties in getting their cattle slaughtered and in
maintaining their incomes and those have been the right things to do.
We have a very powerful case to put to
the rest of the world - that British beef is safe to eat, probably some of the
best beef to eat anywhere and we want the rest of the world to listen to
that. And so I think we can be very proud of the measures that we have put in
place, to deal with this awful, horrendous problem.
EDWARDS: Again, I'm not questioning, for a
minute, how difficult the problem is, Mr Hague. I'm just asking questions
about how you've handled it. So, let's just consider what's happened since the
the Florence summit back in the summer. At that summit the Prime Minister said
that by the autumn the ban would have been partially lifted as a result of an
additional cull. We're now in the autumn, the additional-the ban hasn't been
lifted, there hasn't been an additional cull. I don't need to spell these
things out to you because you know - you're part of these discussions.
Do you think you've handled this
competently?
HAGUE: Yes, I think, it has been a-one of the
most difficult problems any Government has had to deal with in recent years and
the Prime Minister in looking forward to a lifting of the ban in Europe was, of
course, relying, to some extent, on the goodwill of our European partners -
goodwill that was expressed at the time of the Florence agreement. Now, that -
as it turns out - has not materialised. Those other countries have not been
ready yet to lift the ban. So of course the Government will continue to work
to lift the ban. We can say with utter confidence to people that because of
the measures that we've taken over a number of years - right back over the last
seven years since BSE was identified and the problems were first discussed, it
is safe to eat British beef. It is safe to eat it in Britain, it is safe to
eat it in Europe and we will keep on saying that. But, not all of these events
are entirely within our control.
EDWARDS: Am I understanding you correctly, then,
Mr Hague, in saying that it's a lack of goodwill - that's what you said - on
the part of the European partners that's been responsible for the lack of
progress, rather than any scientific developments, or anything else? It's a
lack of goodwill on their part?
HAGUE: Yes, I think, if anyone looks at the
signs, one can see that there is an extremely good case for British beef. It's
very hard to dispute that. But, our European partners have had some
difficulties with their own industries, in reassuring their own consumers.
We've got to respect those difficulties, but they made those difficulties worse
by imposing a ban which created a scare that wasn't actually necessary. The
solution to that is for them to lift the ban. Of course, that is what all of
us would like to do - all of us in Britain, I hope, would like to see them do -
but they evidently require more persuasion yet and we'll keep applying that.
EDWARDS: And if that is the case, do you not
think it's fair for me to suggest that Mr Major was, perhaps, in your words,
then - well, not in your words but in words I'm offering to you - conned into
thinking that he would get the co-operation that he didn't get? And, that in
that sense, Mr Hague, it was unwise - it was wrong, even - to make the pledge
that he made and to raise the hopes of farmers up and down the country?
HAGUE: Well, he wasn't making any pledge. He
was looking forward to what could happen in the autumn and of course he still
wants to see the ban lifted at the earliest possible opportunity. One has to
make the best guess possible in these circumstances. The alternative is that
politicians hardly ever to say anything at all. And, of course, when the
Florence agreement was made, it was possible to look forward with a bit more
confidence than is now the case to a lifting of the ban in the near future.
EDWARDS: So it was just a guess? It was just a
guess at that stage was it?
HAGUE: Well, we've had some setbacks since then
but we're going to continue working on it. We're going to get there, in the
end because we've got science on our side, we've got right on our side.
EDWARDS: Well, fine. When is the end going to be
then? Can you at least give us an idea of whether there's going to be a cull
in the first place, an additional cull?
HAGUE: Well again we have to see how these
things develop. We can't have an additional cull, at the moment, because the
entire capacity of the rendering and slaughtering industry is working on the
existing cull that is alreay taking place. And that is clearly going to take
some more weeks yet. So, we're not going to set new deadlines or make new
forecasts, what we can say to everyone in this country and everybody across the
rest of the world is you should be eating British beef and not have to worry
about it. And the sooner that the European countries lift the ban, the better
it will be for all concerned, including their own industries but we cannot say
exactly when they're now going to do that.
EDWARDS: I'm sorry we're just running out of
time. I just wanted to ask you at the end of this interview - given what
you've said - your denials of any incompetence on your part. Your essential
message, therefore, is that if you carry on as you are now and as you've
carried on in the last two weeks, you're coasting to victory.
HAGUE: If we carry on - and we are going to
carry on - with the economic prospects of the country being the best they have
been in the lifetime of my generation - better than any other country in
Europe, with unemployment falling steadily and consumer confidence growing -
and being able to say to people that if you want that to carry on, you have to
have a Conservative Government and that is the truth, then, we are going to win
the Election.
EDWARDS: Mr Hague, thank you very much for
talking to us today.
HAGUE: Thank you.
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