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ON THE RECORD
MICHAEL HESELTINE INTERVIEW
RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 15.6.97
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JOHN HUMPHRYS: But first, the battle for the leadership
of the Conservative Party. If the first round proved anything, it was that MOST
MPs in the party are sceptical on Europe. That's why Ken Clarke probably won't
win even though he got most votes first time around. What does THAT mean for
the future of the party? There have been suggestions this weekend that if
William Hague wins, PRO-European Tory MPs will feel like exiles in their own
party.
Michael Heseltine has been their
uncrowned king for many years and he is Mr Clarke's most prominent supporter.
I spoke to him earlier this morning and I asked him whether if the Tory Party
isn't a broad church it can survive?
MICHAEL HESELTINE: Well, unless the Conservative Party
survives as a broad church, it doesn't survive. There is no way in which we
will win a General Election unless we remember that historically, we've always
done that, appealing to a wide constituency across the whole of the United
Kingdom and that, traditionally, has been the appeal of the Conservative Party.
The idea that you can retreat into some small corner, however heady the
intellectual mix may be in such a corner and then win a mandate from the
British people I think is fanciful and this I think is the essence of what I
hope my colleagues in the Election on Tuesday, and possibly thereafter, will
remember. Today's atmosphere, the atmosphere of defeat and the feeling of
despondency is not the atmosphere in which we will fight the next election. The
issues are not yet clear, the mood is not clear, the background is not clear,
so one wants to remain flexible, light on one's feet. We're into a guerrilla
war for the time being.
HUMPHRYS: So does it worry you that that broad
church may be threatened by some of the things that some of those candidates -
Mr Hague and Mr Redwood in particular obviously - have been saying?
HESELTINE: Well John, I've always in these election
contests - I've had a little bit of experience of them - I try to concentrate
on the positive arguments for the particular candidate that I support and I
avoid what often can be damaging and personally aggravating, the criticisms of
other candidates, so I won't be drawn onto what broadly could be called
knocking copies, the journalists watching this programme 'put their pens
down at this stage' because without the knocking copy they're not going to get
any stories. I'm interested in why Ken Clarke should be the leader. I think he
has the experience, I think he has the maturity, I think he has the track
record. Now okay, none of us win a hundred per cent on all the score cards,
there are obviously bits in the record that some people don't like, whatever it
may be, and Ken has been Chancellor and he's said no to a lot of people. That
makes enemies, some people don't like being told no but to be a successful
Chancellor you've got to be tough enough, you have to have the overall national
and governmental interests at your..in your main sights. So you offend some
people but I haven't the slightest doubt that he is the man with the
experience, with the popular support and with the maturity to lead our Party
now through a difficult period of recovery and into a winning posture. A broad
appeal at the time of the next election.
HUMPHRYS: I'm not trying personalise this really,
this is a matter of policies isn't it and Mr Clarke himself has said that if
others win then many people are going to be excluded from the Party as a result
of the policies that they will follow.
HESELTINE: I think that if you look at Ken's record
you can see that combined with the experience and the toughness is his
preoccupation to follow a tradition of philosophy, a tradition...a political
instinct, which is inclusive and some people find that a weakness, I don't see
how it can be a weakness in a parliamentary democracy where you have to appeal
to a broad church. But certainly that is one of the reasons why I personally
will vote for Ken. I think he does stand for that broad popular appeal.
Interestingly enough you see it all in the opinion polls, where he has a very
substantial lead because he's got that appeal. It's very difficult to get as a
matter of fact as a Chancellor, having taken all those tough decisions to still
be out in front, way out in front in terms of popular appeal to the people at
large.
HUMPHRYS: And by definition, others are exclusive
and are applying a kind of loyalty test, either you take this view of Europe or
you have no part in governing this country in the event that we retain power,
regain power.
HESELTINE: Well Europe, it's very interesting to
me, looking at these sort of perceived divisions in the Party, and of course
there are always arguments and personalities and cliques and groups, there
always are in politics, that's one of the fascinations in the profession. But
what I found interesting is how some people have sort of almost retreated into
a point at which, not just Europe now, but almost the Single Currency is the
sort of single issue upon which these great issues have to be determined. I
find that extraordinary, particularly if you look at what's happening in
Europe, where unpredictability is the order of the day. The idea that the
Conservatives should decide their fate and their strategy for the next five
years upon an issue which daily looks less likely to be a preoccupation for the
Party, extraordinary. The fact is that we are in Europe, every leader of our
Party in modern times has been conspicuous in taking us further into Europe
because that has been the reality of British national self interest. And the
danger for the Conservative Party, of allowing that sort of broad centre of
industrial and commercial world, who trade with Europe, invest in Europe,
create wealth in Europe, that sector of our society, to feel that the
Conservative Party had lost touch with where our main economic self-interest
lies, would be to hand to Tony Blair a priceless card.
HUMPHRYS: So what happens to the Party then? Can
it survive if it adopts a policy that says 'absolutely no, under any
circumstances' to a Single European Currency?
HESELTINE: Well, I think that would be unwise
because it would be to, if you like, throw down a challenge to a significant
number of Conservative Members of Parliament who have been extremely loyal to
John Major, who have remained relatively quiet through much of the
controversies about Europe because they wanted to help the Conservative Party
to win. It would have a serious risk of igniting a period of disunity which
would be exciting perhaps for everybody but which would in my mind recreate the
atmosphere of 1979, not in the Conservative Party but in the Labour Party,
where they did pursue what was seen as the central essence of the cause they
believed in. And of course it destroyed the Party in terms of the prospects of
power because of what people saw and there has been an element of that in our
defeat. What people saw was a party which couldn't agree amongst itself as to
the way forward.
HUMPHRYS: And indeed it actually split the Party.
Some people couldn't stay, found they couldn't stay in the Party any longer.
HESELTINE: That is true. And that was part of the
eighteen years of Conservative success - that we had an Opposition which was
unelectable and the one thing above all else now in the short term and in this
leadership decision that we've got to, I think, have in mind, is not to take
decisions which box us in to positions which might be regrettable or
unsustainable.
HUMPHRYS: Might that happen to you, what happened
to the Labour Party? Is that the danger as you see it?
HESELTINE: I rest my case and my belief on the
facts of Tory history. We are the single most successful political party in
democracy in human history. We've been elected to govern this country more
frequently, for longer periods than any other political party in the history of
democracy. And that is not luck. That shows the innate common sense of the
Conservative Party. The common sense which always told it to look for that
broad national consensus which would enable you to get a popular appeal and
therefore get elected. And that's nothing the same to say that that is about
being soggy or not taking difficult decisions, or whatever it may be, it's
nothing to do with that at all. You often have to take very tough decisions
and in eighteen years we certainly have. But we kept very closely in touch
with the instincts of the British people and above all else we kept together as
a Party - united in those very difficult times.
HUMPHRYS: And you believe that is threatened now?
HESELTINE: I think Ken Clarke is the man most
likely to produce the sort of policies and the sort of leadership which would
unite and reunite the Conservate Party. Lots of things to be done but that
certainly is one of the most important and he's made it clear. He's gone - as
far as I can see - as far as anyone would reasonably expect, in saying that any
Shadow Cabinet that he led would be inclusive of all views in the Conservative
Party and they would then sit down and face the difficult analysis of how you
find a way forward. And it may be - this is one of the few luxuries of
Opposition - maybe we don't have to find a way forward in the immediate future
because we now and for years to come are going to be in Opposition and
opposition is about - self-evidently - opposing in the early years. It's only
in the later years that people are entitled to say to you "what would you do if
you were in Government?"
HUMPHRYS: But, given that you go down that other
road, the road that you fear, you would also then - quite apart from the effect
that it might have on Members of Parliament - you would also jeopardise your
support from the business community for a start.
HESELTINE: Well the business community is a vital
part of any Conservative appeal to this country. After all we have created the
enterprise economy, we have been the Party that rejected all the centralist
trade union dominated socialist insticts and won the battle in order to set
free the industrial and commercial world to achieve the successes they are.
And the idea that we would ever come back to power unless we could insure their
support is - well it only has to be contemplated for people to realise that it
would never happen.
HUMPHRYS: Could you see yourself serving in a
Shadow Cabinet that adopted the policies that Messrs Hague and Redwood have now
adopted?
HESELTINE: Well I think, John, the question is
broader than that isn't it? I have assumed that I will not be a member of a
Shadow Cabinet.
HUMPHRYS: Why?
HESELTINE: Well, I mean I have more or less got off
the train. You have to in the end face up to this in public life and whilst I
intend to remain an active Member of Parliament and represent my constituency I
think that - I assume that having explained I wouldn't stand for the
leadership that at that point I was telling people that I would expect the
Party to move on. But that doesn't mean to say I shan't be supporting it or
part of it, but I can't believe that people will be casting around to try and
put me into a position. I mean I've done quite a lot of this work and
it's difficult to see what job would be meaningful for me there.
HUMPHRYS: So you wouldn't accept any job now that
were offered to you by any of the potential leaders?
HESELTINE: Well I have assumed ... (telephone
ringing) ... Just let me kill that 'phone. Perhaps one of them was on the
'phone.
HUMPHRYS: Somebody offering you a job.
HESELTINE: Someone offering me a job. Well you've
got a scoop, you've got your story. Like those journalists - I hope they
stayed with us, that's all I can say. But, no, I've assumed that I wouldn't be
part of the Shadow Cabinet.
HUMPHRYS: Why?
HESELTINE: Well, I think that if you've got to my
position, where I've been Deputy Prime Minister and you don't go on for the
'biggy' you're not going to continue in the second position.
HUMPHRYS: Isn't it perhaps worse than that in the
sense that you have after many years of fighting on a one particular side of
the Conservative Party you have now lost the argument. The argument has gone
in favour of - putting it crudely - of the arch-sceptics.
HESELTINE: Can I just - this perhaps is rather a
sort of biographical question, but you say "lost the argument". My own
perception is that people like myself have won the argument. I don't know
where I'm supposed to have lost. Well, you know, just take the Thatcher years
- I was the guy who led the privatisation business.
HUMPHRYS: No, I was talking about Europe of
course.
HESELTINE: Well, I mean why have we lost in Europe,
we are a major player in Europe, we are at the heart of European defence, we
are the most successful economy in Europe, and we're gaining immensely from our
position in Europe, so where have we lost?
HUMPHRYS: We are now facing the prospect of a
leader, unless of course it is Ken Clarke, though apparently he's acknowledged
himself that's fairly unlikely - we're now facing the prospect of a leader who
has the support, - we saw that in the first round of the election in the way
MPs voted - who's going to base his support on saying, "We will have no part
so long as I'm leader or perhaps Prime Minster, of a Single European Currency.
The fundamental issue in Europe has been solved.
HESELTINE: Well, let's wait to see who wins the
leadership battle, and let's see what happens as a consequence. I'm not in the
business of using interviews or making statements which can be turned into
challenges or threats or anything of that sort.
HUMPHRYS: You did it in the last election,
sixty seats and nudging upwards.
HESELTINE: Well, no, sixty wasn't it, nudging
upwards.
HUMPHRYS: Yes, that's what I said.
HESELTINE: It was the only way to keep you
people quiet, I couldn't think of anything else to say. You didn't expect me to
say we're going to lose do you? Anyway it didn't quite work out that time, I
mean I think that's my first public acknowledgement that that forecast wasn't
as good as some of the others I've made, but it was a brave attempt.
HUMPHRYS: But this time it isn't looking good,
this - as a lot of people have acknowledged and it seems to be the case does it
not, that the Party is going to go in a direction that you have fought to stop
it from going in for a very long time now.
HESELTINE: Well, I don't in any way remove a word
of what I've said about who I think should win, and in that position that is
the only view that I would want to express. I shall go on arguing that
Ken is the guy to do the job and we will see what the electorate comes to
conclude on Tuesday or the following Thursday.
HUMPHRYS: And given that it doesn't go the way you
want it to go will you continue to fight on the back benches for what you
believe in. Some - "save the party that I love" seems to come into mind as an
apt phrase, perhaps?
HESELTINE: Well again you see, I mean, you and I
both know, you've probably written the question down even more than I've
written the answer down - I'm not in the business of threatening anybody, and
the answer to that question is inviting me to in some way issue some sort of
challenge as to what the dire consequences would be, and I'm not in the
position to do that.
HUMPHRYS: Well, you've told us already in this
interview that you believe there would be dire consequences of the party going
the wrong way in your view on Europe.
HESELTINE: I think there would be very serious
consequences of a disunited party. That I think is self-evident. History
tells us that and that is why I argue so vehemently for what I think would be
the most unifying decision, which is Ken's election.
HUMPHRYS: I was talking to Michael Heseltine a
little earlier this morning.
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