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ON THE RECORD
LORD HOLME INTERVIEW
RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 2.3.97
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JOHN HUMPHRYS: Well, Lord Holme, a little bit of
evidence there that you made a mistake in sailing too close, cuddling up to
much with the Labour Party. Not paying off is it?
LORD HOLME: The thing I was most struck about in
that film was the local Tory MP clutching at the straw of "oh well, maybe
people will go to Labour in order to save his skin. I think in fact the truth
is that people in places like Somerton and Frome have a very good handle on who
the challenger is. They know it's us, and they know it needs a tiny swing
for us to win the seat, and I think when the day comes as has happened at
previous elections, a lot of people will want to cast an effective vote, the
most effective vote they can, to do what they want to achieve.
HUMPHRYS: And on the other hand they may say:
Look, there's no point in voting Liberal-Democrat is it, because you're so
close to the Labour Party now, you're so hugger-mugger that might as well vote
Labour.
HOLME: Well, most of the newspapers I read say
that the problem with the comming election is that the Conservative and Labour
parties have become so close together on policy, I think as you were pointing
out to Mr Heseltine earlier, whereas the Liberal-Democrats have a very distinct
position including investing in education as the film says.
HUMPHRYS: But here's the difference. The
Conservative Party and the Labour Party aren't talking to each other, at least
one side isn't saying to the other side: well, we might even merge after the
election.
HOLME: Well, that was - I think you're
referring to something Roy Jenkins ....
HUMPHRYS: I'm referring to Lord Jenkins, who is
your leader in the House of Lords, and he's says quite bluntly...we might even
get together, we might merge.
HOLME: Indeed he's my leader in the House of
Lords...
HUMPHRYS: Precisely.
HOLME: So I am extremely careful what I say,
but I've never known Roy Jenkins to be less than interesting in his
pronouncements. I think he was responding to a question at a meeting, and of
course, it's not remotely on the agenda that we will merge with Labour. I
think it's really quite unlikely that we'll have a coalition with Labour after
the election because you're talking about two different parties with distinct
positions. What I think is true is that we've been talking about
constitutional reform. Personally, I wish the Tories had joined those talks.
I think it's something that affects the public interest, but we are talking
about that yes.
HUMPHRYS: Well, let's pick off each one of those
if I may then. First of all the question of merger. If it's not remotely on
the agenda why did Lord Jenkins say it was, and are you saying that it's not
remotely on the agenda at the moment but it might be at some time in the
future?
HOLME: Well, I think Lord Jenkins was, in
response to a question, was saying that he didn't exclude it if the two parties
came to agree. If the two parties agreed about everything then, clearly it
would be a waste of time, but you know, one of the reasons the Liberal-
Democrats are so enthusiastic for fair voting, is that it would actually give
people more choice, rather than reducing choice to Band A and Brand B. We
actually want people to have more choice. So if you ask me a) do I think it's
probable that the day will come when Liberal-Democrats and Labour agree on
everything, I think it's extremely improbable, and b) I'd much rather have a
political system where you had people who are Liberals, people who are
Socialists, people who are Conservative competing, and I think that would be
far healthier for our democracy.
HUMPHRYS: Well. I won't ask you if you think it's
probable then, since you've already answered that. I'll ask you if it's
possible.
HOLME: Well noboby can exclude anything in
politics, but it's certainly not on the agenda now.
HUMPHRYS: I can imagine that the Labour Party
would exclude a merger with the Conservative Party for instance.
HOLME: Yes, and certainly sitting here today
approaching this crucial election, when we're fighting on a very different
platform from Labour, I absolutely exclude any possibility of a merger with the
Labour Party as being on the agenda now, or for any foreseeable future that I
can see.
HUMPHRYS: Alright. So you are not in agreement
with your leader in the Lords on that. Let's turn to coalition, what about
that. Coalition with the Labour Party after the election?
HOLME: Well, people often ask us that, and my
instinct is to say: why don't you ask Mr Blair the same question, and the
reason I say that is this. We've got extremely clear policies at this
election. I think you know what they are, I won't bore you and your viewers
by reciting them, except we are determined to invest in education, we do want
to get the environment at the centre of policies, we want honesty in taxation
instead of this ridiculous dissimulation, and we want constitutional reform.
That's what we're fighting on. Now, given that, the real question for all
parties, is: could you agree on all or any of that? There are signs on
constitutional reform that we may be able to agree on some of that. The most
likely scenario therefore after an election which I firmly expect the
Conservative Party to lose, the most realistic scenario after that election is
that there'll be specific measures on which we might be able to find
inter-party co-operation, and if that were so I think most people like that.
why oppose for the sake of opposing?
HUMPHRYS: Because you have been talking for many
months now to the Labour Party about constitutional reform. We're going to get
a statement I gather, later this week, which says you have reached a measure of
agreement that there is going be some sort of commission, electoral commission
set up, will report back within a year. Now are you committed to accepting the
findings of that commission?
HOLME: Well I don't absolutely know, I don't
have quite the level of confidence that you do because these talks are still
going on. But let's agree for the sake of a useful discussion that it does
seem very likely that there will be agreement sometime in the next few days or
weeks. I think, personally, that the idea of a commission to identify a fair
voting system that could then be put on a referendum, I think it's a very good
idea. I think it's a constructive proposal to come out with.
HUMPHRYS: And would that commission be sort of
mandatory, will its findings be sort of binding upon the parties involved.
HOLME: Well I imagine if it were set up in
consultation between two parties and the new Government were committed to it
that we would certainly accept it.
HUMPHRYS: Even if it offered less than say for
instance the single transferable vote that you might rather like.
HOLME: Well I hate these discussions of
electoral systems being about systems, what do we all want - what does
everybody want - what would everybody like. Even a lot of Conservative
supporters of electoral reform would like something that had local
representation, that had a choice for the voters, as I was saying earlier, a
proper choice. And they'd like something that really put the voters more in
charge of the machine as well as producing proportionality between parties.
Now there are a number of ways of doing that. I think if a commission can come
up with one that commands the broadest possible consensus, achieves those
objectives, then in my view Liberal Democrats, like Labour supporters, like a
lot of Conservative supporters will be very happy with that.
HUMPHRYS: So you yourself, as far as you are
concerned, would be happy to accept something that fell short of what you, if
you were to draw up a list today, what you wanted today, you would accept
something along those lines.
HOLME: I would have to say categorially there's
no such thing as a perfect electoral system. We don't have one now and a
change won't mean a perfect on. What we want to do is get one that's much
better and certainly I think we would be very pragmatic about that.
HUMPHRYS: But look at the problem that you've got
here in terms of the forthcoming Election. Here you are talking, very sensibly
in your terms, in a very grown up way in London, some people would use the
prerogative and say cosying up with the Labour Party. Down there, out in the
real world were people are bashing on the door knockers, the Labour Party is
trying to annihilate you, quite rightly, because that's what Elections are all
about. And they're having...your people are having the ground cut from under
their feet aren't they, because they don't know how to deal with this.
HOLME: Well..of course we saw the Labour
candidate for Somerton and Frome who would obviously put on a good fight, I
would expect nothing else of him, but you notice that he said of policies that
the Liberal Democrats were now committed to, I think he meant investing in
education if necessary putting a penny on the tax to do it and there is the
Labour Party attacking us to do something which I will say categorically
seventy, eighty per cent of Labour supporters agree with. So when Labour
supporters go to the poll in Somerton and Frome, it's really a double whammy
for them because not only can they, as I'm sure a lot of them want to do, get
the Conservative out, but they can also put pressure on let's say it's an
incoming Labour Government to get the sort of policies that people in this
country need and actually want. And I think, therefore, far from it squeezing
us and marginalising us we're actually in rather better shape, in these sorts
of seats, than we were at previous Elections.
HUMPHRYS: The Labour Party thinks they can do it
on their own, they don't need you.
HOLME: Do what?
HUMPHRYS: It - win.
HOLME: Well, we shall have to see, that's up to
the electorate but what we're fighting for is to get as many Liberal Democrat
votes in as many seats as we can and to win as many seats as we can. So the
sort of policies that we stand for, we have more clout, more leverage, more
ability to get them into affect. I think people understand that.
HUMPHRYS: But it's slightly demeaning in a sense
isn't it to have your Chairman going on television, Chairman down there going
on television and actually saying, look, to the Labour supporters - lend us
your vote please 'cause, you know, that way it will help us, you can have it
back later but just for now, lend us your vote. What are we talking about
here.
HOLME: Gosh if you think that's demeaning John
you should have been a fly on the wall at the Wirral by-Election last week when
there were banks and banks and banks of Labour telephone canvassers saying
exactly that to Liberal Democrat voters.
HUMPHRYS: Lend us your vote.
HOLME: Not I may say, quite as successfully
because the Liberal Democrat vote held up very well there.
HUMPHRYS: Yes, yes you came third but I mean there
we are. It held up reasonably well.
HOLME: Whereas, of course, you'll recall at
Newbury and Christchurch the Labour vote almost disappeared and that is the
way, in some of these West country seats, the Labour vote at the end of the day
people will want to cast what I would call, not a tactical vote, an effective
vote. And if what matters most to them is to vote for a Socialist then they'll
vote for a Socialist but if what really matters to them is to defeat in
Somerton and Frome the Tory MP then I think they'll arrive pretty rapidly at
the fact that it needs a very small swing indeed for the Liberal Democrats to
win that seat.
HUMPHRYS: And that's the thing isn't it in a
sense, your entire strategy has been based on targeting those seats where - the
limited number of seats, where you are second to the Tories, where you think or
where you thought, Labour had no chance and Labour might then kind of ease off
and let you go ahead and take those seats away from the Tories. That's now
blowing up in your face isn't it because Labour clearly aren't prepared to play
that game.
HOLME: Well in fact the regional press officer
for the Labour Party in the West country has said that they have no target
seats in Somerset, so despite the brave whistling of the local candidate, I
don't think it is a high priority area for Labour but what I would say is this
that all over the country what people are yearning to do is to cast an
effective vote if they like our policies, if there's a place where they see
that we are winners, then I think they are going to vote for us.
HUMPHRYS: But they want to vote for the winning
party don't they.
HOLME: Well they'll want to vote for a winning
party that will make a difference and that's what we are trying to do.
HUMPHRYS: But look, the only way you can recover
now, the only way you can do what you're setting out to do is to distance
yourself from Labour isn't it, and to say look, we stand for something
completely different, forget about talks in London, forget about all that, we
are distinct from the Labour Party and we will fight them tooth and nail in
this coming Election, not this kind cosy arrangement that we've had.
HOLME: Well I would guess that if you were to
do a poll that asks the following questions: do you think the Conservatives
should go away and lie down in a dark room? - seventy per cent of the country
would say yes. If you said are you suspicious of a potential Labour Government?
- seventy per cent would say yes. That's our opportunity - elect enough
Liberal Democrats and you really will make a difference to the outcome.
HUMPHRYS: Lord Hume, thank you very much indeed.
Lord Holme, thank you very much - I'm going back a little while aren't I there.
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