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OTR HOME INTERVIEWS PEOPLE BEHIND THE SCENES MORE POLITICS BRAINTEASER CROCODILE NEWS BBC ELECTION 97 |
Interview with Michael Howard |
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ON THE RECORD
MICHAEL HOWARD INTERVIEW
RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 2.11.97
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SHEENA MACDONALD: Joining me now the Shadow Foreign
Secretary Michael Howard. Mr Howard, wasn't it a mistake, in retrospect, to
change the Party's policy on a Single Currency, because it's left the Tory
Party more divided than ever?
MICHAEL HOWARD MP: No, we-It was not a mistake. We wanted
clarity. We wanted a clear policy. We don't want anybody to be in any doubt
about where the Conservative Party stands on this momentous issue. This is the
most important issue facing the country. We're being asked to take a decision
with momentous consequences, irreversible consequences. It is about abolishing
the Pound. David Curry was rather nervous about that phrase but that is what
this debate is all about
MACDONALD: But, look at the-
HOWARD: And we want the Conservative Party's
policy to be absolutely clear.
MACDONALD: Look at the cost of that clarity, as you
call it - and we'll come onto that. You've lost two Shadow Ministers: Michael
Heseltine has broken silence and ranks and is now campaigning against the Party
position on Europe; what's already been called a Party within a Party is
growing up around Kenneth Clarke. We've seen the Euro MPs stranded in some
kind of policy no man's land. According to our survey, which you've just seen,
a significant minority of back benchers - a fifth of those that we questioned -
seem to agree with the Government that Britain should join EMU if and when the
economic conditions are right. I mean, by any measure, this-
HOWARD: That's simply not true. You've had
fifty-four out of seventy supporting the Party line.
MACDONALD: But, one further question.
HOWARD: Overwhelming, overwhelming support for
the-for the Leadership's line.
MACDONALD: One further question.
HOWARD: I think you must have been very
disappointed by that result and when-no, no. When further questioned,
people gave different reasons for supporting the policy. People always have
different reasons for supporting any policy. Let's not misrepresent your poll.
MACDONALD: But-
HOWARD: The poll showed overwhelming support in
the Conservative Party for William Hague's line and I believe he does command
overwhelming support for that policy.
MACDONALD: However, that does not undermine the
other points I've made, which are, that there is a Party within a Party.
People are really talking about a possible two Tory Parties - a pro-Europe and
an anti-Europe. I mean, this is a-
HOWARD: Actually, Sheena, let's, let's-
MACDONALD: -disastrous decision that didn't have to
be made, isn't it?
HOWARD: Not at all. Let us not trivialise this
debate and this issue. Everybody knows that all political Parties have people
within them who have different views on this issue. I was in the House of
Commons last Monday. Of the first eight Labour back benchers who got up to
question Gordon Browne, only one supported the Government's policy. There are
people in the Labour Party who disagree with the official Labour Party policy;
there are certainly people in our Party who disagree with our policy; there are
even people in the Liberal Democrats who disagree with their policy. This has
always been an issue which has transcended Party lines and it will continue to
be so.
MACDONALD: What I'm suggesting to you is that this
so-called clarification was not necessary and even your Leader, William Hague,
in his first big speech back in July said this, and I quote directly: "Anyone
who sets out to write our Manifesto today either has extraordinary foresight or
is extremely foolish." Now that was July. This is October. It's four and a
half years before the next Election and that's exactly what you've gone and
done, with the results we've seen. Is that extraordinary foresight?
HOWARD: Let me explain to you what this issue is
about-
MACDONALD: But, you-
HOWARD: -and, why-why we've reached the policy
that we have.
MACDONALD: You understand the point I've made,
though?
HOWARD: Everybody agrees that you have to look
very carefully at the Single Currency in order to see whether it is working
before a decision can be taken whether Britain can join. Everybody agrees on
that proposition. The Single Currency will not be fully operational until the
year Two Thousand and Two - probably into the next Parliament. The Government
plans to take us into the Single Currency early in the next Parliament. There
will not be that opportunity to examine it, to subject it to a sustained period
of scrutiny to see whether it works. We say since it's not going to be fully
operational until the year Two Thousand and Two, it is clear that if we are to
give it that sustained period of scrutiny, if we're going to see how it works,
it will not be possible to take a decision in the next Parliament. That is why
it's quite clear to us we will be fighting the next General Election on a
policy of not taking Britain into the Single Currency in the next Parliament.
It is the Government that is being dogmatic about this. We are saying that
since everyone agrees you have to have a proper period in which to examine
whether it works, that period cannot be concluded before the end of the
Parliament.
MACDONALD: Well, that is clear, but it also
outlines or-or illuminates a very striking thing about this new policy which is
also slightly strange. You and your Leadership campaign back in the summer
said you were opposed in principle to a Single Currency. Now, Mr Hague said
the same thing. He's opposed, in principle, to a Single Currency. According
to our survey, the largest portion of the Parliamentary Party is opposed in
principle to a Single Currency, but the new policy is not to oppose a Single
Currency in principle - that's right isn't it?
HOWARD: Some of us will take a great deal of
convincing that it is right to give up control of our interest rates for
certain, forever; to give up control of mortgage rates in this country for
certain, forever; to give up control of our Foreign Exchange Reserves and very
likely to give up control of our policies on Tax and spending and to embrace
something which will very likely lead to a Single Government. But, we are
responsible politicians. We recognise that we must always look at the evidence
and when the evidence is available we will look at it. It will not be
available in this Parliament or the next. The Single Currency will not be
fully operational until the year Two Thousand and Two. If it is to have a
proper period of scrutiny to see whether it works, we will not have the
evidence available, we will not be able to take a decision until the end of the
next Parliament at the earliest.
MACDONALD: So that is-So, that is very clear. You
are not opposed, in principle, to a Single Currency?
HOWARD: I didn't say that. I said that there
are some of us who will take a great deal of persuading, but the-.
MACDONALD: But this is a very important point.
HOWARD: No. The important point-You see,
no one is ever going to be asked, in practical politics, the question is never
going to be: will you/would you ever be in favour of joining a Single
Currency? The question at various times is going to be: are you in favour of
joining a Single Currency now? And what we can say with absolute confidence is
because the Single Currency is not going to be fully operational until the year
Two Thousand and Two, the evidence simply will not be available in the next
Parliament which would entitle any sensible Government of this country to say
we should join.
MACDONALD: And, that-
HOWARD: That is a pragmatic position based on a
lack of evidence. It is the Government which is being dogmatic about this
question.
MACDONALD: But that-But that is a very important
thing you have said. It does mean that the Shadow Cabinet is not opposed in
principle; it is operating a pragmatic policy. There is no principle of
opposition to a Single Currency.
HOWARD: I've told you what our policy is. There
are some people-.
MACDONALD: You are not opposed in principle.
HOWARD: There are some people who approach it as
a matter of principle, there are some people who would be prepared to go in -
if the evidence justified that. We all come together on a policy which makes
it absolutely clear that the Conservative Party would oppose membership of the
Single Currency in this Parliament or the next. But, can I just say-
MACDONALD: But, not in principle.
HOWARD: - a word or two about what is actually
at stake?
MACDONALD: But, it's-Well, I want to ask you-
HOWARD: Because the-
MACDONALD: -about the implication of what 'not
opposing it in principle' means. It means that when you talk about Labour
abolishing the Pound, when you talk about the Conservative Party saving the
Pound, you don't actually mean that. That may be what you want people to
believe, but what you mean is that with your current policy you'll save the
Pound for as long as circumstances make that the right decision.
HOWARD: Look, you can only take these things a
Parliament at a time and what we're saying: at the next general Election the
issue will be: Do you want to save the Pound in the next Parliament?' After
the next Parliament there'll be another Election.
MACDONALD: But, saving the Pound for a few years
doesn't mean saving the Pound.
HOWARD: At that Election-At that Election, the
battle lines will be drawn, the Labour Government will say: if you vote for us,
if you re-elect us, we will abolish the Pound during this coming Parliament;
and we will say: if you vote Conservative and you elect us, we will not abolish
the Pound during this coming Parliament.
MACDONALD: But we might abolish the Pound in the
Parliament after that.
HOWARD: That can be argued about at the
following General Election. You take these things a General Election at a
time. That is the only sensible way in which you can take them. Let me just
say a word about some of the important issues that arise. I saw someone on
another channel earlier this morning who is going to be on Gordon Brown's
committee, charged with the task of preparing to take us into the Single
Currency, and he said his job was going to be to put our economy in synch with
that of Europe's. We have lower Unemployment than Europe. Is he going to
increase our Unemployment to put us in synch with Europe? We have faster
growth than Europe. Is he going to stifle our growth to put us in synch with
Europe? We have lower taxes than Europe. Is he going to raise our taxes in
order to put us in synch with Europe? The truth is that our economy is not in
synch with Europe. It hasn't been in synch with Europe for a long time and it
doesn't look as though it's going to be in synch with Europe. And our economy
has been the one in which jobs have been created, Unemployment has come down,
taxes have been low and growth has been high. I want to keep those advantages
in our economy.
MACDONALD: Now, people will listen to you and
they'll listen to all the arguments. But, they do need to know whether- what
the effect of your pragmatism is. So, again, for complete clarification, can
you rule out ruling out the Single Currency, in principle?
HOWARD: Well-
MACDONALD: In other words, can you make David Curry
content because he sees the Shadow Cabinet moving towards that and he makes
some very anti-s and it's one of the reasons he's left the Cabinet.
HOWARD: At the next General Election, our policy
will be: if you vote Conservative and elect a Conservative Government, the
Pound will be safe in the next Parliament. After that Parliament, then, it'll
be a decision for another General Election. That is very clear. It is much
clearer than the Government's policy. It is a pragmatic policy, based on the
fact that it is clear now that the evidence to make a final judgment on this
question, simply, will not be available during the next Parliament.
MACDONALD: So, you certainly wouldn't rule out a
Conservative Government - a future Conservative Government - entering the
Single Currency?
HOWARD: Well, if you're asking me to say what a
Conservative Government might do in ten, fifteen or twenty years' time, I
think, you and your viewers will understand that that is not a sensible
question for me to answer. What I can answer is what our policy is now and
what it will be at the next General Election: what our intention is at the
next General Election.
MACDONALD: You've made that very clear. You have
no principled objection to a Single Currency, which means that the only
difference-
HOWARD: You keep putting those words in my
mouth. I haven't said that at all. I have explained what our policy will be at
the next General Election, what our intention is, as far as the next General
Election is concerned. I think, you can only sensibly take these things an
Election at a time.
MACDONALD: In which case, the only difference
between you and the Government seems to be that you have a different set of
tests by which to assess whether or not Britain should join a Single Currency.
You're both pragmatists.
HOWARD: It's a very, very important difference.
We, certainly do have a different set of tests. Gordon Brown dismissed as
being of no real consequence the Constitutional test's in his statement last
week. And, let's be clear that when we talk of Constitutional tests, we're not
talking about some abstract principle, we're talking about the right of people
in this country to take democratic decisions about things like taxation, about
things like spending, about what is to happen to our Foreign Currency Reserves
and, indeed, whether we want to move to a Single European Government.
MACDONALD: But, once again-
HOWARD: Those - Those are the questions which we
regard as highly relevant to a decision to enter the Single Currency.
MACDONALD: Yes but you don't see-
HOWARD: And, that certainly is one of the
important differences between us and the Government.
MACDONALD: Well, it well may be but it's not a
difference that you see as a bar in principle to Constitutional objection.
HOWARD: Well, I've explained to you that some
people in the Conservative Party arrive at our present policy on the basis of
principle. Some take the view that it is quite clear that the evidence isn't
available and won't be available in the next Parliament to make a judgment
about whether we should enter, even if they attach less importance to arguments
in principle. We have a very, clear policy and it is a policy that sets out
clearly to the British people where we think our interests lie in this
Parliament and the next. Now-
MACDONALD: And, it's-
HOWARD: Now, the Government-
MACDONALD: And, it's-
HOWARD: Right. The Government, by contrast, has
said that it is in favour of the Single Currency in principle, it would like to
go in as soon as possible but it has taken a purely political decision not to
go in in this Parliament for reasons which it hasn't really properly explained
at all.
MACDONALD: And, your new policy is a policy which
has riven the Conservative Party as we have never seen it before. Now,
possibly, in Opposition that is possible. Where it will all lead we shall see.
But, it seems to me that looking back, you are now in the worst of all worlds
because you've - you've split the Party, without having a principled position,
you've opted for pragmatism. Wouldn't it have been much better to stick to the
foreseeable future and at least maintain a veneer of unity?
HOWARD: No. We've gone for clarity. We think we
owe that to the country. We think we owe it to the country to spell out with
clarity what our Party's policy is - the policy which we think is in the best
interests of the country because that is the only test. What is in the best
interests of the British people? What is in the best interests of British
jobs, British prosperity and the right of the British people to take their own
decisions which affect their future?
Those are the right tests. Those are
the criteria by which we decide our policy and we believe that we owe it to the
country to set out that policy very clearly. As your poll demonstrated, it has
the overwhelming support of the Parliamentary Conservative Party; I think, the
overwhelming support of the Conservative Party in the country and the support,
as I believe we shall tell in due course, of many, many people who would-will
not have voted Conservative, did not vote Conservative at the last General
Election.
MACDONALD: Michael Howard, thank you very much,
indeed.
HOWARD: Thank you.
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