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ON THE RECORD
JIM WALLACE INTERVIEW
RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION: BBC TWO DATE: 16.5.99
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JOHN HUMPHRYS: Everyone said the election of a parliament for
Scotland meant politics in this country would never be the same again. Well they were right. It
took just over a week for Labour to do a deal with the Liberal Democrats in Scotland which
has produced a coalition government. I spoke to their leader Jim Wallace earlier this morning,
he is going to be the deputy first minister in Scotland soon, he is up in the Orkneys when I
walked to him. I asked him first, what principles the Liberal Democrats had to concede to get
seats at the table of power?
JIM WALLACE: We�ve actually come to an agreement with the
Labour Party to have a partnership government for four years, which will not only allow us to
implement our principles, and implement our policies too. And I think that�s a very
important thing for Scotland. We�ve preached for years, not only for a Scottish Parliament but
for a new style of politics. A politics where we get away from tribalism, where parties can co-
operate. We�ve said that if you had proportional representation, it was likely that parties
would have to co-operate, we have shown our willingness to do that and indeed it�s an
opportunity for us to put our principles and our polices into practice.
HUMPHRYS: But you�ve conducted your campaign on the
basis that university tuition fees would have to go. No question about it. All you�ve got from
the government, from Labour is a promise of an enquiry. Now that does not guarantee the
promise that you made.
WALLACE: And we have made it clear in this partnership
agreement that Liberal Democrats still maintain that tuition fees should go. We have not
abandoned that position. What we have, I think what became abundantly clear is that the
Scottish Parliament couldn�t, by a simple one line resolution abolish tuition fees. Certainly
we couldn�t renegotiate the whole of the funding of Scottish further and higher education in a
matter of four days. Where we have also got the Labour Party to accept that there�s got to be
an enquiry that will look at the issue of tuition fees, it will also take into account the much
wider aspects of student hardship, that was something which we also fought the election on.
The fact that we are concerned that tuition fees and the general funding of students is a barrier
for many people, particularly on poorer incomes to go to university or college, that when they
are there many young people are actually dropping out. What we are having is an enquiry into
both tuition fees and into the wider aspects of funding of higher education, life-long learning.
We will make the Liberal Democrat Party our representations to that enquiry which we will
underscore our opposition to tuition fees, we will be wanting obviously to tackle too the issue
of student hardship and I hope many of the other bodies too, who have been expressing
opposition to tuition fees will join us in making a very compelling case to the enquiry as to
why tuition fees should go.
HUMPHRYS: Well that�s all well and good but let me remind
you, if you need any reminding, of what you said before the election: �if people want to
abolish tuition fees, not discuss the abolition, if people want to abolish tuition fees they
should vote Liberal Democrat.� That�s what you said on April 9th, on May 4th you said: �fees
are dead as of next Friday.� What�s happened in between.
WALLACE: Well it is clear that in the Scottish Parliament, all
parties are signed up, there was a consultative steering group which looked at the procedures
and processes of the Scottish Parliament. All parties are agreed that before any legislation
takes place there should be a pre-legislative enquiry. In fact the Scottish Parliament doesn�t
actually have executive power until the 1st of July. I�ve already tabled a motion which can be
debated, it doesn�t require executive power, a motion which will actually instruct the executive
to set up the committee of enquiry, the terms of reference, the timescale, the membership of
that enquiry will be subject to the approval of Parliament. But if in fact we had not entered
this agreement, there still had to be lengthy procedural process, there also would had had to be
a pre-legislative enquiry dealing with some of the issues which I�ve already referred to.
HUMPHRYS: What a shame you did not - what a shame you
didn�t say all of that before the election instead of making these absolutely firm commitments.
WALLACE: I think every party is quite committed to using
the pre-legislative process, I think one must assume that every party who�s talking about
tuition fees knew that that would have to..that that would be part of the process. And you
know, we will still maintain our opposition to tuition fees and arguably it may even be that a
committee of enquiry that can be set up before the Parliament will ever have an opportunity
to examine the issue - will have an opportunity to examine this issue, it will be able to get on
with its work much earlier.
HUMPHRYS: And how long is it going to take, this committee,
to report.
WALLACE: The time scale will be a matter for the parliament,
the motion will be submitted to the parliament for its approval with regard to time scale. But
what I do, would draw your attention to, that in the agreement which Donald Dewar and I
signed on Friday, it is stated that this committee should be set up as a matter of urgency. We
do think it is a matter which should be examined very quickly. There will be important
information which the committee will have to examine. We have argued, along with some of
the other parties, that the existence of tuition fees is a barrier for many people to apply to
universities - a six per cent drop this year in applications and will be obviously be looking to
see whether that feeds through to the number of admissions. Actually a bigger drop from the
number of applications from mature students, these are the issues which we will be presenting
to the committee of enquiry and arguing that tuition fees should go as part of an overall
package which will actually increase access for people to further and higher education.
HUMPHRYS: So you talk about urgency. What are we talking
about - weeks, months?
WALLACE: I�m not going to get hooked on a time scale but
it�s a matter which..
HUMPHRYS: Why not?
WALLACE: �.we want to see done quickly. It�s a matter we
want to see done quickly. We were also, during the context of the negotiations which we were
having during these past days, one of the issues we wanted to find out, was you know if you
were actually to move say to abolition, what are the practical implications of that. When in
fact could you, you know actually deliver on the abolition of tuition fees. Now, in as much as
almost all financial arrangements for people going to university in the forthcoming academic
year, applications have been made, the student awards branch has been processing these. I
mean it was clear you couldn�t even get the legislation through before the start of the
forthcoming academic year. The official advice we were given is that it would be very difficult
even to do it for the year 2000/2001, given all the administrative upheaval it would lead to.
2001/2002 was said to be the earliest date where this could be achieved. So in fact there should
still be some time, good time to get things in place for that date.
HUMPHRYS: So when you were taking about it being
abolished, definitely being abolished next Friday as you put it, what you actually should have
said, was we hope possibly, perhaps, maybe, Friday 2001 or something. It�s not quite what
you promised is it.
WALLACE: As I said, I mean all parties who were making
similar promises, saying that tuition fees could be abolished at a stroke, we all know there�s
rhetoric used in elections, all parties knew full well that the actual Scottish Parliament didn�t
even have the legislative competence until the first of July and that in fact there must be a pre-
legislative procedure. I am sure that I made that point at some stage.
HUMPHRYS: I don�t know that you did, you see..
WALLACE: I think�I mean I�ll not say definitely but I do
know it�s something that I was aware of and have actually discussed in the context of some of
the debates and discussions and press conferences during the election campaign.
HUMPHRYS: I have to say I don�t recall you or any of your
colleagues saying �actually, when we talk about abolishing tuition fees this is rhetoric, you
know it�s not� it�s just an election campaign isn�t it��
WALLACE: I�m not saying that - Come on John - I�m not
saying that the actual abolition was rhetoric but to say that it actually could be done by the
following Friday, well everyone knew that that couldn�t possibly be done. Parliament didn�t
even sit until the following Wednesday, so I think anyone who actually, you know, was
examining it with anything approaching a rational and sensible mind knew that there would
have to be legislation, would know given that all parties were signed up to a pre-legislative
process, that that would involve some enquiry.
HUMPHRYS: Okay, so are your Liberal Democrat MSPs now
committed, absolutely committed to voting for whatever that enquiry concludes?
WALLACE: No. You can�t commit anyone to vote in advance
of the outcome of an enquiry when we don�t know what the outcome will be.
HUMPHRYS: So the coalition could fall apart?
WALLACE: We will as a party put our evidence to that
committee which will include our case for the abolition of tuition fees. Our agreement which
we�ve signed on Friday makes it clear that both parties will have to evaluate the conclusions of
the committee of enquiry and clearly we will be free to come to our own decision on that. The
objective is that we should be able to find a way forward but you know the possibility must
be that we can�t. We obviously hope that the Committee of Enquiry will be recommending
the abolition of tuition fees and given the number of people, the Conservative Party, the
Scottish National Party, the National Union of Students, many many individuals that have
been writing to me about this, the number of bodies which will be making the case for the
abolition of tuition fees, it will be a very compelling case that the Committee is faced with.
HUMPHRYS: Ah, but you never know as you say with
committees, you can�t pre-judge the outcome of the committee so if the committee, if the
enquiry says well actually we don�t think that tuition fees ought to be abolished, will you then
stick to your principles or will you say - okay, we�ll go along with that.
WALLACE: Well, as the Agreement says we will have to
evaluate the conclusions of the committee. We�ll have to see if that�s what they do, decide
what their reasons are for doing that, we�ll obviously have to look at too what the wider issues
are with regard to tackling student hardship, but you know I�m not going to concede at this
moment that that�s what the Committee is going to come up with and I think some of those
who have been attacking us seem to have very little confidence in their ability to make a case
for the abolition of tuition fees. We�ll be making the case for the abolition of tuition fees and I
believe it will be a very compelling case indeed.
HUMPHRYS: But it may not work out the way you wish as
you say. Let�s have a look at something else - beef on the bone. Now another very clear
manifesto commitment, you will end the ban, page seventeen of your manifesto. Now you
seem to be saying: �as soon as medical advice indicates it will be safe to do so.� Well we
already know what the medical advice is from London at any rate that it is not safe to do so,
so what are you going to do, are you going to end it or not end it?
WALLACE: Well obviously Scotland has its own Chief
Medical Officer. This is, I can assure you, an issue which was discussed and debated
at some length in our negotiations. We were given the very unequivocal advice from
Scotland�s Chief Medical Officer that his advice at the moment is that it�s not safe to do so. I
think it�s a very brave politician that would ignore that but let me also make this clear, the
present government indicated to us that nothing would please them more than to be able to lift
the ban on beef on the bone and our agreement makes it clear that the minute, the second we
get the signal that it is safe to do so, that ban will be lifted and I very much hope that will be
sooner rather than later.
HUMPHRYS: Ah, but there was no point in your manifesto
promise then was there? I mean it was another one of those, what was it, a bit of rhetoric
again was it, saying we�re going to end the ban. I mean it was quite clear, you said: �we will
end the ban� .
WALLACE: It is a clear objective�..
HUMPHRYS: I�m a bit puzzled between objectives and
promises to be honest.
WALLACE: Well, as I say, when you�re actually faced with
catagoric unequivocal evidence and advice rather, you cannot just blithely toss it aside
particularly, I mean if there was to be a further increase in the cases of CJD, then I think there
would be a very heavy responsibility on you if you cast that aside. But let there be no doubt
both the Labour Party and ourselves would see nothing better than the ability to lift the ban
on beef on the bone. The procedures are in place to be activated the minute we actually get
the all clear to do so.
HUMPHRYS: Alright, one more manifesto promise then, that�s
on the Skye Bridge - �we will abolish the toll� that�s page twenty-four of the manifesto. Now
you�re saying tolls will be frozen at the current level. Another bit of rhetoric?
WALLACE: No, well look, I think you�ve also got to put this
into some kind of context John. We didn�t win the election. We didn�t get an outright
majority.
HUMPHRYS: No, but you made a lot of promises, and what
I�m saying to you right through the beginning of this interview is that you are now prepared to
let go of those promises, your pledges, your principles in order for a seat at the table of
power, that�s the whole point of this interview.
WALLACE: Look, what I also said was the more Liberal
Democrats there are, the more of our manifesto we would be able to implement. Clearly
unless you�ve got an overall majority you cannot reasonably or rationally expect to be able to
implement the whole manifesto. What we have achieved is something like forty-eight items in
our manifesto that have now� that will now be part of the programme of government, that�s
on average one a month for each month of this parliament. We been able to get substantial
additional investment into education to recruit teachers, to invest in books and equipment.
We�ve actually also been able to invest money to help poorer students at the moment even
pending the outcome of this enquiry. The access funds that help students suffering hardship
at university has increased to fourteen million pounds. We�ve got a substantial package of
measures for Scotland�s rural areas. We�re now going to have a Minister for Rural Affairs,
measures directly to help the farming communities - a number of measures that would not be
there but for Liberal Democrat participation in this administration.
Now with regard to the Skye Bridge tolls - right
we�ve not been able to get everything we want there but what we do have is a freezing of the
tolls from now until the end of the contract period. Now that wasn�t being offered by Labour
before the election, that�s something that Liberal Democrats have managed to extract as a part
of this agreement and I can tell you I�m sure there�s many people would like to know that
their costs were fixed for now until.. for the next fourteen years.
HUMPHRYS: Jim Wallace, thanks very much indeed.
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