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ON THE RECORD
JOHN HUME INTERVIEW
RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 5.4.98
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JOHN HUMPHRYS: Let's talk now to two of the leaders of
the key Parties involved in these talks. First John Hume, who is in Dublin,
leader of the SDLP. Good afternoon to you Mr Hume.
JOHN HUME MP: Good afternoon.
HUMPHRYS: You were as responsible as anyone for
getting this whole show on the road, right in the very first place and what you
envisaged was a settlement that would involve all the Parties, a full and final
settlement that would involve all the Parties. Do you, at this stage, with five
days to go, still believe that to be possible?
HUME: Well, of course it's still possible. In
fact the very fact that we have both Governments and all Parties together in
the same building, is in itself major progress. And that all are committed to
reach an agreement where the final endorsement will be with the people. So
there's no question of any imposed settlements. There are, obviously, still
major differences between us but we're all working very hard and very
positively. We've had a number of positive meetings with the Unionist Party
during the week. We're all working hard and positively to try and resolve those
differences so that by the target date, Thursday, we will reach that agreement.
And we very much welcome the fact that a target date was set by the Chairman
Senator George Mitchell, because that has finally focused the minds of all
Parties and the Governments on real negotiations.
HUMPHRYS: Right. Well, let's go to the first of
those differences, the major differences that you describe. One of them, of
course, is Dublin's claim to the North of Ireland - Articles Two and Three of
their constitution. Now, Sinn Fein is adamantly opposed to Dublin saying we
will abandon that eventually, we'll just drop it! So in that case, how are you
going to get round that?
HUME: Well of course as we have said
repeatedly from the beginning of this in the SDLP there are three sets of
relationships at the heart of our problem and therefore everything in relation
to those relationships is on the table for discussion. And our hope and view is
that proposals will emerge on all three, that would, as I say, relate to the
new situation and a new resolution of our problems. So all those are under
examination.
HUMPHRYS: But very hard at this stage to see how
that's going to be reconciled isn't it?
HUME: Well that's a task that faces us. If we
didn't have, as I often say, if we didn't have such divisions we wouldn't have
to be sitting round a table.
HUMPHRYS: But the problem is Dublin hasn't come up
with the form of words that will satisfy the others, have they?
HUME: Well let's wait and see. In the coming
days there's been very intensive dialogue in the past number of days between
Tony Blair and Bertie Ahern, the Taoiseach, and of course that in itself is
major progress. That such energies, at the highest level of Government, is
being devoted to resolving this problem. That's something that should have
been happening from over twenty years ago but hasn't been happening. But we
very much welcome the fact that both Prime Ministers are putting such energy
into it and that, in itself, is extremely positive and we will be getting the
outcome of their talks, presumably, in the near future as well as the dialogue
that is going on in Stormont itself.
HUMPHRYS: And do you believe that there is a form
of words there, that's likely to come out of Dublin, that's acceptable to you
on that?
HUME: Well I certainly believe that that's an
area where we can be positive about because when you look at the question of
sovereignty. I mean in the past, sovereignty has been about either Royalty,
Kings and Queens, or about territory. And of course, I think when the history
of the world is written, that will go down as one of the worst periods in the
history of the world because those are the concepts of sovereignty that led to
both Imperialism and two World Wars. Real sovereignty is people. Without
people any piece of earth, as I often say, is only a jungle and real
sovereignty is about people. And in our situation, our people are divided and
the task is to put both agreement among our people and by working together, by
creating institutions which get us working together in our common interests, to
break down those barriers that divide us and create a whole new Ireland.
HUMPHRYS: So there might very well be a form of
words acceptable.
HUME: Based on agreement.
HUMPHRYS: Indeed, there might very well be a form
of words acceptable to you. But, is there going to be a form of words
acceptable to Sinn Fein? That's the key, that's the crucial question isn't it?
HUME: I think that the question not just of
this matter - you're talking about Articles Two and Three - but the
whole agreement -whatever is in the whole agreement will have to be acceptable
to the vast majority of the people of Ireland, north and south, and that in
itself is also an extremely valuable approach that for the first time ever if
we get an agreement we will have an agreement on our relationships in this
island endorsed by the people of this island North and South and that is the
final word is with the people.
HUMPHRYS: But before we get to that stage, before
we get to the stage of the Referendum, are you saying that this agreement -
whatever it turns out to be, and let's think about Articles 2 and 3 for the
moment since we're talking about that has to be acceptable to Sinn Fein as
well. They have to come on board for you to approve this agreement yourself.
HUME: Well, our view is, as Mark Durkan said
earlier in this programme, and our view throughout has been that we want to
see, first of all we want to see all- we have wanted to see all Parties at the
table and we work to bring that about. Therefore we want to see-we would like
to see an agreement that is endorsed by all Parties. But at the end of the day
- and that all Parties are involved in creating that agreement - but at the end
of the day, as I said, no matter who endorses the agreement that emerges, the
final endorsement will be with the people. But our approach is to, as we
described it, totally inclusive, to try and have all Parties included in the
agreement and in support for it.
HUMPHRYS: Right, so in other words you would- on
behalf of the SDLP you would be prepared to sign up and leave it to the people
of Northern Ireland, whatever Sinn Fein decides to do.
HUME: Well, you see, what we're into now and
the timing of your question of that nature is Party politics.
HUMPHRYS: It's crucial, isn't it?
HUME: Sorry, yes, but just hold on. That's
not what we're at in these talks. The purpose of these talks is to create
lasting peace and stability in our country and the way to do that is to create
an approach that will have the endorsement of all sections of our people and
that will respect the diversity of our people and that's what we're working at
and if we start getting into Party political arguments or if we'd been doing it
throughout the last two years we wouldn't have made any progress of any
description.
HUMPHRYS: No, but the reason why I say this is
absolutely vital is that you surely could not allow any Party-
HUME: Well let's wait and see. Well, let's
wait and see.
HUMPHRYS: Well let me finish the question, if I
may, Mr Hume.
HUME: Yeah.
HUMPHRYS: You couldn't, surely, allow any Party to
these talks, whoever they may be - Sinn Fein or anybody else - to exercise a
veto over an ultimate agreement because in your view what matters above all
else is that there be an agreement that can be put to the people of Northern
Ireland.
HUME: Absolutely. We're not in the business
of vetos, we're in the business of reaching agreement. And of course at the
end of the day, given the nature of our society, each section of our community
has a veto. I mean that's a negative way of looking at it and for too often,
you know, these sort of vetos have been used. What we want to do is create a
society where people are working positively together and building together and
by doing that to break down the barriers of prejudice and distrust that are at
the heart of our real problem.
HUMPHRYS: So if Sinn Fein don't agree your
reaction - don't sign up - your reaction to that would be: that is a great
shame but nonetheless we will go ahead.
HUME: Let us wait and see what agreement
emerges, if an agreement emerges, and let's hope it does. And if it's an
agreement that we fully support - the SDLP - we will be asking the people to
fully support it. But we are working for an agreement that will involve all
the Parties of the talks giving their endorsement to it.
HUMPHRYS: John Hume, thank you very much indeed
and let's now go north to Belfast.
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