................................................................................
 
                                 ON THE RECORD 
                            PETER KILFOYLE INTERVIEW      
 
RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1                                 DATE: 19.10.97
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JOHN HUMPHRYS:                         Good afternoon Mr Kilfoyle. 
 
PETER KILFOYLE:                        Good afternoon. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Is it right that the nation should have 
to divine Government policy from what one or another spin-doctor tells 
correspondents on a Friday night? 
 
KILFOYLE:                             No, I don't think that is right, but nor 
do I think that's the case either.  What happens with individual spin-doctors 
is a matter for their relationship with their departmental ministers.  The 
Government is pledged to open government, we're pledged to a Freedom of 
Information White Paper before Christmas, followed by a Bill, and we're on 
course to deliver those. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              But you cannot deny can you, that what 
happened on Friday night was that political advisers appointed by ministers,  
unelected people, were out there telling people what the real message behind 
that interview that Gordon Brown gave to the Times... that's what was going on 
on Friday night wasn't it?  Nobody can deny that. 
 
KILFOYLE:                              There was a relationship certainly 
between special advisers and lobby journalists, and that appears to be 
something which is not particular to this Government, it's something that 
certainly went under previous governments too, and as you've already pointed 
out it's a way in which there are certain indications which are given in very 
very sensitive areas.  But... 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              So that's what happened is it?  I mean, 
you're quite clear about that. 
                
KILFOYLE:                              I really don't know.  I wasn't privy to 
these conversations.  What I can say is that very often there is 
misinterpretation on the part of the journalist by the very nature of these 
contacts.  That may have been the case, it may not have been the case 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              So all these very experienced 
correspondents having had their conversations with people who are very close to 
the Chancellor and who know exactly what is going on, they somehow or other got 
hold of the wrong end of the stick, even though in some cases, those advisers 
telephoned the correspondents back and said, "Now let us," having heard earlier 
reports, "now let us be quite clear what is going on here". 
 
KILFOYLE:                              Well, quite frankly I wouldn't have a 
clue, nor would you, nor would most people. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              But you're in the Government, I'm not in 
the Government. 
 
KILFOYLE:                              I mean I am not responsible for special 
advisers.  As I say that's a matter between the departmental ministers and 
their own advisers.  What I do know on the particular subject is that the 
Chancellor will make a statement to the House.  I am perfectly happy along with 
most other members of the Government to wait in eager anticipation of what he 
has to say.  I'm a humble public services minister, I wouldn't try and gainsay 
what the Treasury do or say, and indeed I would hope that the statement would 
be very early. 
 
HUMPHRYS                               Well, in the meantime are you happy as a 
humble minister, some might say a distinguished minister in the Government - 
are you happy to get you information from people operating behind the scenes, 
interpreting what the Chancellor said, and then going a mile beyond what he 
actually said, to say: this really, whatever you read in The Times this 
morning, whatever you read in The Times this morning, this really is what the 
Government's, the Chancellor's position is. 
 
KILFOYLE:                              Well, frankly I may be very naive, but I 
don't believe everything I read in newspapers, and until I'm informed that 
there is a substantial change in policy in any area, then I will stick with the 
policy as annunciated by the responsible minister, in this case the Chancellor. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Well, your problem is that the world 
does believe what the spin-doctors tell journalists, because they know what a 
close relationship there is - and perhaps the world spin-doctor is wrong in 
this case, I should stick with this "special adviser", very close adviser, 
because they know what a close relationship exists between these advisers and 
in this particular case the Chancellor.  We saw it on television.  There were 
two one-hour long documentaries which you didn't need to be very clever to see 
what was going on there did you?.  I mean we know how close this relationship 
is, and people believe what they say. 
 
KILFOYLE:                              And indeed it needs to be close if you 
are to avoid the alternative charge of politicisation of the Civil Service.  
They have a very very distinct role and a very very important role.    
 
HUMPHRYS:                              We should believe what they say 
 
KILFOYLE:                              I beg your pardon? 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              We should believe what they say, then?. 
 
KILFOYLE:                              No. What I'm saying is that they have a 
very very distinct role which is a symbiosis, a symbiotic role with a 
respective minister. Now there is also the other extension of the relationship 
with the journalists.  Now the journalists quite rightly, want to obtain 
whatever inside information that they can, but much of that is down to their 
own particular interpretation.   Now, as far as I'm concerned, as Frank Dobson 
said this morning, there's been no change in policy of which I'm aware and I
will await exactly what the Chancellor has to say in his public statement. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Yes, well, let's look at the kind of 
thing that went on on Friday night, and goes on in other circumstances too, 
though this was a particularly powerful example.  It isn't a matter of a 
journalist getting hold of a bit of information, ringing up a couple of 
spin-doctors and saying, "Heard anything of this, what's going on here?"  It's 
a question of them ringing around with a very clear message and saying, "Now, 
let's be absolutely clear what you're going to be writing tomorrow, or 
broadcasting on the BBC tomorrow, is X, Y and Z".  And they may say, "But, 
sorry that isn't quite what the Chancellor said".   And they say, "No, no, this 
is what he meant to say".  This is what's going on - and you must know that! 
 
KILFOYLE:                              I'm sure that there are people who have 
very close relationships amongst journalists with the special advisers, and 
they have their own language almost on what's the reality of a speech or a 
commitment that is made is.  What I would say is that as a politician, as an 
elected politician, as a member of the Government, and indeed representing my 
constituents, I am concerned with what the politician says, not with what the 
spin-doctor says, no matter what inflections are put on by the spin-doctor or 
indeed by journalists.  But of course I'm sure that we will be enlightened on 
that issue in the very near future when the Chancellor makes his statement.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Well, you say 'in the very near future', 
but in the meantime we've got the stock markets opening in the morning with 
people saying: Gosh it's going to be another crash - you know things are going 
to really ... so ordinary people are going to be damaged as a result of that, 
and it's because we have been told quite clearly that we ought to believe what 
these spin-doctors tell us. 
 
KILFOYLE:                              Well, I must say, that I noted earlier 
your - the interview with Peter Lilley and it hardly equates to the kind of 
things which happened under the previous Government because this Government is 
committed to open Government and I do stress- 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Have you got three times as many spin 
doctors as the other lot had, then? 
 
KILFOYLE:                              Three times as many spin doctors? 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Three times as many special advisers.  
 
KILFOYLE:                              Our special advisers are a different - 
there isn't that kind of substantial difference and, in fact, we've been very, 
very open about the role of our special advisers, despite implications that 
somehow they had a role to politicise the Civil Service, which is obviously, 
not the case.  But, nevertheless, I - I will be very, very happy to anticipate 
an early statement from the Chancellor on the subject.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              How early? 
 
KILFOYLE:                              Well, that's a matter for the 
Chancellor.  
 
HUMPRHYS:                              Well, obviously, you think it should be 
pretty early, don't you? 
 
KILFOYLE:                              I think, it's a matter for his judgment. 
I respect his judgment and I will follow his judgment, like all other members 
of the Government.   
 
HUMPHRYS:                              And, why not recall Parliament? You had 
an awfully long holiday? 
 
KILFOYLE:                              Well, as you said, yourself, that would 
be a suggestion that there was some panic afoot.  There's no panic.  This seems 
to be something which has been conjured up between - by your allegation - spin 
doctors and journalists between them.   
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Well, it's not just my allegation, it's 
a matter of fact.  You've only got to look at the headlines in the newspapers 
to know that that is what has happened and you've got yourselves into this mess 
precisely because nobody knows who they're meant to be listening to.  You know 
the organ grinder or the monkey! 
 
KILFOYLE:                              Well, I would certainly listen to the 
Minister and take careful note of the policy statements that that relevant 
Minister makes. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Talking about open Government: this is 
one of the things that you're responsible for and that Tony Blair has talked a 
great deal about in the past.  We've had an example here.  You acknowledge that 
there are these special advisers operating in the way they do. So we've seen a 
pretty good example this weekend - or bad, as the case may be - of spin 
doctoring.  What we saw last weekend was a pretty good example of Government by 
leak.  We learned because it appeared in the newspapers that the NHS was going 
to get hundreds of millions of pounds extra to spend and that money was going 
to come from the Ministry of Defence.  The Secretary of State for Defence 
hadn't been told about that, it seems and we learned about it from the 
newspapers.  Is that the way to go about things? 
 
KILFOYLE:                              Well, I know, you don't choose who uses 
your example the fact that all NHS trusts are now writing 'round to people 
and telling them that their meetings will be held out in the open.  One of the  
early....
 
HUMPHRYS:                              What's that got to do with it?  Has that 
got to do with what I've just asked you? 
 
KILFOYLE:                              It's certainly got a lot to do with the 
concept of open government and how.... 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Can we deal with the issue that I raised 
there?  You know a very important economic decision, financial decision has 
been taken and we learned about it from the newspapers because that was how the 
Government chose to do it.   
 
KILFOYLE:                              At the moment, we are in recess, of 
course.  The normal way in which these things would be made available to the 
public domain would be in a statement to Parliament but nevertheless I'm 
absolutely convinced in my own mind that the necessary discussions took place 
between the relevant Ministers.  You tell me that that's not the case.   
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Well, George Robertson, The Secretary of 
State for Defence seemed awfully surprised about it, didn't he?      
 
KILFOYLE:                              Well, he accepted very readily on 
Thursday night on television quite the reverse, and also, the fact that the way 
in which Government was approaching Departments which overspend was perfectly 
moral and legitimate.   He gave no indication at all that he had been surprised 
by the decision when it was actually taken.   
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Let's look at another example of this: 
the man who would otherwise have been sitting in your chair this morning, David 
Clarke went public yesterday to complain about the way he, himself, has 
been smeared by people within the Government.  We're talking about a Cabinet 
Minister here!   
 
KILFOYLE:                              What he did was to clarify that and make 
a suggestion that there was a civil servant that was, actually, smearing him.   
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Well, I think that was a clarification 
and that wasn't the initial implication of what he'd said, was it?  He said 
somebody 'in Government' is what he originally said.  Now, some people might 
think: oh, perhaps, he was got at.                   
 
KILFOYLE:                              He did, indeed, say 'in Government' but 
the reason why he clarified it was so that there was no misunderstanding.  He
suggested that there was somebody within the Civil Service and, of course, that 
is being investigated now by the Permanent Secretary of the Department 
concerned.  So, as far as I'm concerned I wouldn't prejudge the outcome of that 
inquiry.  We'll wait and see what happens.                                    
 
HUMPHRYS:                              It, rather, looks like he's being 
marginalised, though, doesn't it? 
 
KILFOYLE:                              Absolutely not.  He's been central to 
driving on the Freedom of Information White Paper and also, the Better 
Government White Paper.   
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Well, what about this other Government 
source and this was not a Civil Servant who said, again, one of those leaks who 
said: he's lost it?  You now, prelude to him being booted out of the Cabinet. 
 
KILFOYLE:                              Well, all sorts of interpretations are 
put on a phrase like 'lost it' - if that was actually used.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              I can only think of one - to be honest 
with you.  
 
KILFOYLE:                              Well, you might but there may be many 
interpretations of that but, again, I'm very, very wary of these anonymous 
unattributable sources.  I'm very concerned by those as we all must be.  But, I 
do stress that these are not peculiar to the short lifetime of this Government. 
It's something which has happened down the ages and I don't take too much 
notice of them. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              It may not be unique to this Government 
but it is what happens when you have a kind of culture that fights against the 
whole notion of open government.  I mean, you mentioned Civil Servants earlier. 
What we've seen just this past week is Civil Servants, Information Officers 
having a meeting with their Union because they are concerned that they are 
being told to do things that as Civil Servants they ought not to be doing and 
that is spinning - not just for this Government - but against the other lot.  
                                        
KILFOYLE:                              Well, if that is the case, you know-. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Well, it is the case, they had the 
meeting. 
 
KILFOYLE:                              Well, I know they had the meeting but I 
also know that at their behest there is an action fund being drawn up to bring 
them up to speed with modern Government requirements. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              What does that mean - 'modern Government 
requirements'?  Does modern Government requirements mean you've got to use 
Civil Servants to deliver party political messages 'cos it never used to. 
 
KILFOYLE:                              No, it's quite the reverse but that 
communication is essential to modern Government.  It's not just an add-on, and 
can I say that if there are any complaints which Information Officers have, 
they have a clear procedure to follow to pursue their complaints through their 
Permanent Secretary.  What I have to say is that this Government in the very 
early days wrote to Heads of Information across all Departments making clear 
that the conventions which obtained - under previous Governments - obtained to 
their conditions of employment to date.
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Well let me give you an example.  You 
say they certainly they did write a couple of letters.  Let me quote from one 
of those letters from Alistair Campbell, who is in charge of the whole shebang. 
Giving an outline story to a Sunday paper with off the record quotes can serve 
to highlight an announcement and generate more interest.  Well, I'm sorry, 
where's the open government in that?  Off the record quotes, encouraging Civil 
Servants to deal in off the record quotes. 
 
KILFOYLE:                              I'm sure it's a case that that has 
always been the case.   
 
HUMPHRYS:                              But you just told me you wanted to 
modernise things. 
 
KILFOYLE:                              I beg your pardon? 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              You just told me you wanted to modernise 
things so you can't very well go back to what's happened in the past and say 
that's always the-It doesn't make it right because it's always been done, 
does it? 
 
KILFOYLE:                              No one would suggest it makes it right, 
but you're suggesting that it's wrong.  It's always been the practice for 
Information Officers to do precisely that. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                               But it is not the job of Civil Servants 
to spin stories.  It's the job of people-We pay their salaries.  We, the 
taxpayers, pay these people's salaries.  It is our right - and, if it sounds a 
bit pompous, I apologise for it, but nonetheless - it is our right to expect 
that they will deliver straight information.  They're Civil Servants. That's 
what they're paid to do. 
 
KILFOYLE:                              It is absolutely the case that it is 
your right as a taxpayer and mine too, but what I would say is that we've gone 
to great lengths to avoid politicisation.  There is a very, very fine line 
between what might be deemed by the Information Officers or anybody else as 
being political spinning and what is a straightforward function of an 
Information officer. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Well we've seen eight of those 
Information Officers leave haven't we?  Because obviously they think that fine 
line has been crossed.  Some of them have gone because they wanted to, I 
accept; some have been sacked; some of 'em given 'gardening leave' and all the 
rest of it - but eight in five months!  Eight Information Officers have gone, 
including a very senior one, Jonathon Haslam this week and the implication 
there - used to be John Major's Press Secretary - the implication there is 
because he was told to prepare a press release that was attacking the Tories 
and he wasn't prepared to do that.  
 
KILFOYLE:                              Well, Jonathon Haslam has gone to a job 
which pays him twice his salary - and good luck to him.  Jonathon Haslam, to my 
knowledge, has no objection whatsoever to the way in which the Government is 
handling the presentational side of Government.  Others amongst them- 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Well he hasn't denied the stories.  With 
respect, he could have called somebody and said:look it's a load of old 
nonsense, I wasn't at all cross about it.  Hasn't done that. 
 
KILFOYLE:                              No.  That's a matter for Jonathon. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Is it? (phon) 
 
KILFOYLE:                              But what I do know is that that's a 
reason in his case.  Certainly there are other cases where people the chemistry 
hasn't been right but then again that has always been the case and increasingly 
it's important that Information Officers have to have a very, very close 
relationship with the Head of their Deparment given the centrality of 
communication of policy in this Government's view. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Now you're setting up an operation to 
monitor stories about the Government.  Nothing wrong with that in one sense, 
you might say, if what you are monitoring was accuracy.  But you're not, what 
you're doing is monitoring the impact of the stories.  Now, okay, that's fine 
in Opposition.  You had a very sophisticated operation at Millbank doing this.  
It's rather different when you're using Civil Servants' and, again, taxpayers'
money to do it. 
 
KILFOYLE:                              We are not using Civil Servants' and 
taxpayers' money for political purposes.  What we need to do is to monitor the 
effects and the perceptions of policy in the nation at large.  It's important 
if we are to effectively deliver our policies.  There's nothing wrong in that 
and it's not different in substance from what the previous Government did.  All 
that we're concerned about is that we are very, very effective in our 
communication.  We can't do that without a two-way flow of information. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              The last Government did not have such an 
operation.  I mean that's just a fact, a statement of fact. 
 
KILFOYLE:                              Well, what I'm saying is that we have to 
move with the times.  The last Government had a very fragmented public 
relations record.  Now, they would argue that they were very, very poorly 
presented.  I would argue that perhaps much of the substance of what they were 
presenting couldn't have been portrayed anyway.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Alright.  
 
KILFOYLE:                              But it's absolutely essential for a 
Government in this day and age to communicate effectively. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              One other very quick thing.  Freedom of 
Information Act: this would be one of your opportunities to prove how open you 
are but now even that has been pushed into the distant future, hasn't it?  Can 
you give me a guarantee this morning that A) it's gonna happen and the 
timetable for when the Freedom of Information Act becomes law.  We haven't got 
an Act yet but when's it going to happen? 
 
KILFOYLE:                              There is a commitment. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              I know there's a commitment. 
 
KILFOYLE:                              and there was a commitment in the 
Manifesto.  We intend to maintain that commitment.  The timetable is to have 
the White Paper out for discussion by the turn of the year and by Spring to 
have a draft Bill so that the general public can have a second opportunity to 
make a contribution to a very, very important part of our Better Government 
programme. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Peter Kilfoyle, thanks very much indeed. 
 
KILFOYLE:                              Thank you. 
                                                                   
 
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