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ON THE RECORD
MARTIN MCGUINNESS INTERVIEW
RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 18.1.98
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JOHN HUMPHRYS: Last week the Northern Ireland talks got
going again with something concrete to talk about: a new blueprint agreed
between London and Dublin which spelled out how Northern Ireland might be
governed for the years ahead. There'd be an assembly in Belfast; a new
Ministerial Council made up of politicians from North and South and yet another
body which would include representatives from England, Ireland, Scotland and
Wales. The Unionists have broadly welcomed it all. But Sinn Fein's Chief
Negotiator Martin McGuinness has said it's a "serious mistake". Mr McGuinness
is in our Londonderry studio.
Good Afternoon, to you.
MARTIN MCGUINNESS MP: Good Afternoon, John.
HUMPHRYS: A question first, if I may about the
story that's in the news this morning: the former Ambassador - American
Ambassador to London, Raymond Seitz - has said that secret information that
used to get passed between London and Washington was, then, relayed by
Washington back to the IRA - so, they stopped telling Washington what was going
on. Were you getting lots of secret information from the Americans?
MCGUINNESS: Well, Sinn Fein certainly wasn't but I
think I'm very saddened that the former Ambassador has chosen to make what, I
think, effectively amounts to a very negative contribution at such a critical
time in the course of Irish history.
HUMPHRYS: Well, he's done it because he thinks
what was happening was very wrong.
MCGUINNESS: Yeah, well, I think that in the overall,
many people who are well disposed towards the search for a peace settlement in
Ireland will welcome the fact that President Clinton and Jean Kennedy-Smith
and people like that were prepared to make positive contributions and to
recognise that in order to have any hope whatsoever of bringing about a peace
settlement, then it had to be an all-inclusive negotiating process
without preconditions.
HUMPHRYS: So, they did pass on information?
MCGUINNESS: No. I have no information about that
at all. I think, that this man is, obviously, selling his book and this makes
a good news story and I don't think that we should be preoccupied by what he
has to say at this time.
HUMPHRYS: Right. Let's turn to this blueprint
which was agreed between London and Dublin and that you have rejected now.
You're going to the talks tomorrow morning as I understand it. I'm not quite
sure what you're going to be talking about, if not that blueprint.
MCGUINNESS: Well, I think, that first of all we've
got to put this in context and it's very important for people in Britain to
understand that this or these propositions, heads of agreement were presented
to the talks table from the barrel of Unionist and Loyalist guns. Over the
course of the last four weeks, four Catholics have been killed by Loyalist
death squads. Up to a dozen have been wounded. Over the Christmas period, we
have had all sorts of threats from the Unionist Parties and from the Loyalist
Parties to withdraw from the talks. And, effectively, I think, many people
within the Nationalist community believe that both Governments have succumbed
to the Orange card. I can tell you, I think, without fear of contradiction,
that these proposals have not been well-received within the Nationalist
community - there's a lot of anger, a lot of frustration.
That said, I think that it's important
for us to be calm, to be reflective. Sinn Fein will go to the talks and we
will go there to challenge what we believe is a very serious mistake.
HUMPHRYS: Right, well, 'challenge'. In other
words, you will negotiate on those heads of agreement, will you? You're
not saying: we'll have absolutely nothing to do with it, won't talk about them
and, in fact, if they do want to talk about it we'll walk out. What you're
saying is: we will talk about them. We will negotiate on them.
MCGUINNESS: No. We will go to the talks and we will
make it quite clear to all of the participants - as has been made clear to many
of us over the course of recent years by both the British and the Irish
Government and many other participants in the talks - that there can be no
internal settlement.
HUMPHRYS: Right but have you made that clear? I
mean, could I just stick with this point, for a moment? Having made that clear
and they say: well, sorry, that's the deal on the table or, at least, that is
the blueprint for heads of agreement that we're going to discuss. Then,
what do you do? Do you stay at the talks and discuss them? Or, do you walk
out?
MCGUINNESS: Well, I think, we'll cross that hurdle
when we come to it.
HUMPHRYS: Yeah, but you're coming to it tomorrow!
MCGUINNESS: Well, John, if you'll give me a chance
to answer. I think, what we have to do now over the course of either coming
days or weeks is to establish exactly what the position is from both the Irish
and the British Government, in relation to all of this. And, there will be a
need for Sinn Fein to be involved in discussions with both governments, on a
very serious basis of establishing what exactly all of this means, Sinn Fein
isn't going to be involved in knee-jerk reactions. But, what we want is a
meaningful, negotiating process and what we want is people to face up to the
reality that threats of violence and actual threats have been used to affect
the outcome of the negotiations. In fact, the Mitchell Principles have been
thrown out to wander by all of the participants in the talks.
It seems to me that the only armed
group which is on ceasefire at the moment is the IRA.
HUMPHRYS: Ah, but I mean you say all the
participants, indeed. I mean Dublin has gone along. It's a joint agreement
between..yeah a joint agreement between London and Dublin that has produced
this. If London and if Dublin, in particular - your friends are impressed with
it and want this to be discussed, want this to be the basis for negotiation,
why can't you go along with it?
MCGUINNESS: Well I think it's very important to
recognise what this is. It isn't a joint agreement, it's a joint proposition.
HUMPHRYS: No, no, as you say it's a blueprint.
MCGUINNESS: It's a joint proposition and I think
that by this stage, as we speak, I think, both the British and the Irish
governments, won't be well aware that this particular plan has gone down like a
lead balloon within the Nationalist community, not just within the Sinn Fein
constituency but right across the Nationalist community. These plans have been
rejected by people who are very frustrated and angry.
HUMPHRYS: But, what, what bit of it in particular
do you not like, because there are lots of bits of it that you might be
expected to approve of, as Dublin already does?
MCGUINNESS: Well I think first of all what you have
to remember is that these proposition heads of agreement have effectively, at
this stage, told all of the participants that there is, for example, going to
be an assembly in the North. That there is going to be a Council of the Isles.
Now, all of that-
HUMPHRYS: It's going to be twice a year.
MCGUINNESS: All of that, John, without one word of
peace negotiations; all of that against the background of the persistent
refusal of the Leader of the Ulster Unionist Party, one of the major Parties in
the talks, to speak to the Sinn Fein representatives another major Party within
the talks. Therefore, all of us need to understand that there will be no
meaningful negotiations if people are not prepared to engage in a realistic way
with one another.
HUMPHRYS: But this is what is happening.
MCGUINNESS: And this will dramatically reduce I
think, the prospects of a peace settlement.
HUMPHRYS: But there are talks going on in the bits
you missed out. You mentioned two of the bodies, you didn't mention the third
which is this sort of North-South Council which will, according to the Irish
Prime Minister, have executive responsibilities. That's something that you
wanted - you wanted that!
MCGUINNESS: I haven't heard the British Prime
Minister say that. In fact I've heard David Trimble say the opposite. I've
heard David Trimble say that he is quite pleased with the outcome of the
proposition heads of agreement. Obviously within the Nationalist community
people are watching all of this very, very carefully indeed and I think people
have come to the conclusion that what they have seen is a major retreat by both
governments from previously stated positions. Some of these positions are not
positions that I would be fully happy with but the reality is that we are
actually seeing here both governments withdraw from what was described to many
people as international documents over the course of the last thirteen or
fourteen years.
HUMPHRYS: Well, well given that the IRA is
apparently going to meet within the next few weeks to review the ceasefire,
would your advice - and I know you're going to tell me that we're not part of
the IRA, I know that so save a bit of time - would your advice to them be:carry
on with that ceasefire; on no account go back to the gun.
MCGUINNESS: Well, I'm always very sceptical about
these reports, particularly emanating from the British media as to what the IRA
will and will not do.
HUMPHRYS: Well, what would your advice be to them?
Put that aside, what would your advice be to them?
MCGUINNESS: What I'll have to say to you is that
let's put all of this in context. The IRA are on ceasefire, the IRA are the
only armed group to have kept that ceasefire.
HUMPHRYS: And should they continue to keep it?
MCGUINNESS: And we have - sorry John - but we have
seen the situation over the course of recent months - where people who are
participants in the talks process, their armed groups have been killing
Catholics on the outside. We have had no demilitarisation whatsoever from the
British government. We've seen the Nationalist community been attacked by the
Loyalists and by the British over the course of recent months and I think that
many people seeing this - production of this document - against that
background, people need to be aware of the very great anger that is within the
Nationalist community as to what has happened here.
HUMPHRYS: Sorry, we've run out of time. If you
could give me a Yes or No. Will you tell them they should keep the
ceasefire going?
MCGUINNESS: Well what I'll tell you about that is
that I am a Sinn Fein politician, absolutely committed to the search for peace.
I want peace.
HUMPHRYS: Martin McGuinness, thank you very much
indeed.
MCGUINNESS: Thank you.
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