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ON THE RECORD
MICHAEL HESELTINE INTERVIEW
RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-2 DATE: 20.9.98
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JOHN HUMPHRYS: But first the troubles of the Tories.
Ballot papers go out tomorrow to members of the Conservative party and the
leadership devoutly hopes that there will be an overwhelming majority voting
yes ... Yes to the notion that if they get into power at the next general
election they will NOT take Britain into the single European currency. The
whole object of the exercise is to end the divisions within the party over the
issue that has caused them so much damage in the past. But it's causing
ructions even before the first vote has been cast. The big beasts of the
party - Michael Heseltine and Kenneth Clarke - have already written the whole
thing off as an irrelevance. And it's getting personal. William Hague has
said people like them are all too willing to go on television and radio and
criticise ... and if they ignore the ballot it is THEY who will be irrelevant.
Well, Mr Heseltine is not cowed by that. I spoke to him earlier this morning
and asked him whether he is going to vote in the ballot.
MICHAEL HESELTINE: Well, you know, I haven't really thought
about it.
HUMPHRYS: Really?
HESELTINE: I regard the referendum as, it's just a
sort of irrelevance to the main point of things. It's bound to deliver a
positive vote for the leader of the Conservative Party. He could organise a
ballot on almost anything and say: do you back the leader? and the Tory Party,
particularly in its present circumstances would be likely to support it. But,
it's irrelevant and it's irrelevant because what really the task is, is to find
a way to win the next election and winning the next election is about winning
back groups of people who didn't vote Conservative in the last election but
previously had for quite a long time. And there's no evidence that I know, at
all, that you would get enough of those back on a Euro-sceptic wicket. We tried
all this in government and there were always people saying, if you'd just be a
bit tougher on Europe you will pull back support. Every time we were a bit
tougher on Europe the support went down.
HUMPHRYS: So, you may or may not vote. You won't
be campaigning will you?
HESELTINE: No, because I think it is a very sort of
divisive thing to become involved in trying to get activists in the
Conservative Party one way or another to make their minds up in that way. It's
- the Conservative Party is obviously not at its highest level of support
and.....
HUMPHRYS: it's ....it's one of those great
under-statements of the year.
HESELTINE: If I might say so, that is a sort of
non-controversial statement. And so, what we're in the business of doing is
advancing, and advancing means appealing to a broad church of popular opinion,
and I don't think that there is such a broad church of Euro-sceptics who are
prepared to move back to the Conservative Party. You can certainly enthuse
some activists, and you can certainly get some of the fringe people who went
off to indepence parties of referendum parties, you can get some of them back,
but that will not win you the election, and the danger is that as you go after
that rather more extreme element you'll alienate people in the centre.
HUMPHRYS: Maybe that calling merely calling this
referendum has increased support for the party?
HESELTINE: Well, we will see what the opinion polls
show. I know what happened in my constituency, and I'm what would be called a
safe Conservative seat, twenty-thirty thousand Conservative voters, two
thousand subscribers, a lot of subscribers, two thousand subscribers. Since
the announcement of the ballot we've had ten phone calls, ten out of two
thousand subscribers, out of twenty to thirty thousand voters - in other words
nothing. And actually I asked some people to ring one or two other
constituencies, about ten constituencies, and what emerged was, my figures are
rather higher than the others. So the evidence that I have available to me is
that it's made no impact at all on the great British public, none at all.
HUMPHRYS: You're not running away from this are
you, because you know, you acknowledge that you can't win?
HESELTINE: We wouldn't win. Of that I have not the
slightest doubt, but I mean, you've only to put yourself in the minds of those
of those who organised this ballot. Why did they do it? The reason they've
done it is to try to end what they think is the debate in the Conservative
Party. Now they're not going to that. This is the great issue of our time.
HUMPHRYS: Not if you keep going on like this
they're not.
HESELTINE: Well, whoever, whenever, there's no way,
because this is the great issue, and the fact is we're likely to have either a
referendum or a general election in which this is dominant issue. Labour and
Liberal are going to be campaigning on a pro-Europlean situation, so it's going
to be the big issue. But, even if it weren't the big issue in domestic
political terms it is the big issue for Britain. The reason why people like
Ken Clarke and myself and a range of other former leading members of the
Conservative Party will not abdicate our position, is because we happen to
think that in Britain's self interest, regardless of the interest of a
particular party, the European posture is the only one that reflects where
Britain can exercise most influence in the next century.
HUMPHRYS: Michael Ancram who is going to become
the chairman of your party, says that people like you and Ken Clarke are
showing contempt for democracy within the party.
HESELTINE: Yes. Look, Michael Ancram is an
absolutely first class guy. Let me say that at once - a very nice guy, very
intelligent. I have the greatest admiration for him. But if you apply that
sort of approach, that anybody who disagrees with the party, think what you'd
be doing in historic terms to all sorts of people, distinguished people in the
Conservative Party who at one stage or other have believed that national
self-interest and their own personal commitment was more important than party.
We are not, if you like a totalitarian society. The party does not dominate
your life to the exclusion of all else. The Conservative Party is a broad
coalition of people that come together with broadly right-wing philosophy, but
with a range of different perceptions as to how that should turn into practical
politics. And if you start advocating the position of saying to people, this
is what the party has said today, and therefore you are wrong, and you have to
be quiet, then you are going to cut down from underneath any sort of reality
about the Conservative prospects.
HUMPHRYS: That's precisely what William Hague is
saying. Let me quote to you - you'll know the quote I daresay. "The days of
the small elite in the party doing whatever they want without reference to
party members" - that's the point "without reference to party members is over
I know that, others are about to learn it. If others think differently they
are deluding themselves"
HESELTINE: It's an interesting quotation, but I
don't change a word of what I said.
HUMPHRYS: Isn't there arrogance in that case, on
your part?
HESELTINE: Why is one in politics? Why does one
give one's life to public divide/service for? Because you believe in things.
You believe first of all that the views you have, the philosophy you hold, the
energy that you might bring to the game is able to help Britain's own future,
the widest constituency of people, self-interest of your nation - that's what
you believe. You may be wrong, you may make bad judgments but that's what you
believe, that's what drives you and you want to play a part in it. And, if
people say: well, that is arrogant, well, that's what they say.
I mean, they've said the most appalling
things about Churchill before the War - the most terrible things were said
about him, by people saying the Party says this; this man is rocking the boat -
they had every sort of abuse. He turned out to be right. And, I can think of
endless examples of people who had the courage to stand for what they believed
in and found that history came their way. And, I have no doubt - indeed, I
have a few experiences - but talking to people all over the world, travelling
as one does outside this country, I don't meet a serious constituency of people
who think that there's a future for this country's influence in the world
outside Europe. Now, of course, I get lots of letters. I got one this week
with a picture of me hanging at the end of a rope calling me a traitor. I
think, I think, that's what someone shouted out when MacMillan first announced
the application to sign the Treaty of Rome. I think, the word 'traitor' came
from the Tory backbenches and I got some other letter with a picture of my head
on a block about to be chopped off, with references to having fought in the
War. I mean, I don't sneer at those people but they are not living in the
Twenty-First Century or the psychology of it. They are looking back and they
have misunderstood the extraordinary fusion of self interest that Europe
represents. I mean, I go further you see. If I look at what I think is going
to happen in the Twenty-First Century, I think, that all sorts of forces are
part of this shrinking global world and that they are going to force a wider
range of nations to share sovereignty. I think international terrorism,
international environment, international capitalism are now above the nation
state and there's going to be an increasing need to try and find ways of
regulating these activities. The environmental situation is, quite obviously,
already happening.
HUMPHRYS: So, even after the ballot has been held
- if it goes against you, as your firmly expect it will do - you will continue
to talk in this vein?
HESELTINE: I've been talking in this vein since I
was an undergraduate at Oxford and why? Because I listened to Churchill's
great postWar speeches and there they all are! The Hague, Zurich, the Royal
Albert Hall - there is a visionary Conservative talking about what tomorrow is
going to be like and people like myself were brought up to understand that. I
listened to MacMillan, to Hume, to Heath. I served under Heath, of course, to
start with, under Mrs Thatcher. And, I mean, take Mrs Thatcher said every sort
of thing to pander to Euro-scepticism but what is the historic reality? What is
the reality? No Prime Minister of this country has shared British sovereignty
more absolutely, more irrevocably than Mrs Thatcher.
HUMPHRYS: She signed the Treaty of Rome.
HESELTINE: She signed the Single European Act. She
entered the Exchange Rate Mechanism and so, you have to judge people. Of
course, in her gut, she feels all these things but when she had to think it
through what Britain's self-interest was all about she tried to frustrate the
Europeans and they faced her down and she knew that, in the end, our self
interest demanded participation.
HUMPHRYS: But, you said why in answer to that
question of mine. The answer is disunity, isn't it? Within the Party. That's
why they say you should stop doing what you're doing and I offer you a quote of
your own: "disunity", you said to me before the last Election "disunity in the
Party would open the door to the Labour Party to Number Ten Downing Street".
HESELTINE: I agree with that. That's why it was
such a catastrophic mistake to move from the brilliant position that John Major
had secured. We are in Opposition.
HUMPHRYS: But, you are now in a different
position. There is now a different position. There is now a different
position, you have a different Leader with a different policy. If you believe
in unity, you must say: Look, I hold these views but I'll keep quiet for the
sake of the Party.
HESELTINE: Well, it's a perfectly good question.
HUMPHRYS: That's what Mr Hague would say.
HESELTINE: And, so, this is what you then have to
think through, in my position. I have no doubt, at all, that Britain's self
interest demands involvement in Europe. I have no doubt, at all, that my
personal integrity is committed to that view and has been over a very long
period under many different Conservative Prime Ministers. And, so, you then
have to say: that is on one side of the scales. On the other is Party unity.
Which weighs? And, I have to say that Britain's self interest and my integrity
weigh heavier than Party unity.
HUMPHRYS: So, will you speak from the Conference
Floor because the Conference will be held shortly after the result of the
ballot is known - Party Conference?
HESELTINE: No, I haven't any intention of doing
that.
HUMPHRYS: Why?
HESELTINE: Well, because I think that is to
exacerbate the difficulties. I think that-I mean, I saw what they did to Ted
Heath. Do you remember in the European debate?
HUMPHRYS: You're afraid of being shouted down -
you're not 'Fritz' in the words of Margaret Thatcher, are you?
HESELTINE: I don't think anybody has ever felt that
about me, I don't think. But what I am not prepared to do is to be drawn onto a
battleground that other people have rigged to make sure that it goes the way
they want. You know we all know what's going on and how the organisation is
being used in order to try and achieve certain results. I remember what they
did to Ted Heath. They gave him the ability to speak to Conference from the
floor and then they put Jonathan Aitken up to rubbish him, that's what they
did.
HUMPHRYS: You talk about 'they' as though this was
another party, as if this was the opposition, this is your party.
HESELTINE: Conference management is a very
sophisticated operation, known to the journalists and the political
practitioners, to the political parties, for the skills it demands. And if you
have any sense and if you have any experience, you don't get taken down the
road to a position where you will appear to have lost in a way that it quite
unnecessary. My position is quite clear, William Hague said it when he made his
initial decisions, that there was going to be the opportunity for backbenchers
to campaign in the context of the economic and monetary union. That's what a
referendum is about, that is what parlimentary processes are about and I will
continue to do just that thing, but when I want to and on platforms that I
choose.
HUMPHRYS: There's a report in the papers this
morning that five Tory members of the European Parliament are considering
resigning the Tory Whip because of what is now being said to them. They've got
to keep quiet as well, do you think they're right to do that?
HESELTINE: No, I don't but I think they are quite
wrong to resign the Whip. If, it depends which question you are asking me.
HUMPHRYS: The question is are they right to
threaten, if that is what they are doing, to resign the Whip.
HESELTINE: No, they shouldn't do that and I mean I
give you the example of Peter Temple-Morris. I did everything I reasonably
could to persuade him to stay in the Conservative Party. There are people
saying to me: why don't you leave the Conservative Party, some people even say
why don't you start your own party. And I have said you don't understand. The
Conservative Party is a hugely successful political force, it has embraced
different strands and there's been many controversies but in the end it comes
together to win power and then to use that power in Britain's interest. And the
idea that one should disappear, especially when you have given your life to the
Party, and start something in opposition to it, is inconceivable to me.
HUMPHRYS: But what if the leadership takes action
against people like Tom Spencer, the European MP who has been very outspoken
indeed..
HESELTINE: Very good, very good man.
HUMPHRYS: So what if they take action against him.
HESELTINE: I will criticise them. But I will not
leave the Conservative Party. I've got people, I can tell you John, in my
constituency, I've got people saying to me, I'm sorry we're going, we're never
going to subscribe again, we're not going to vote again, we can't stand what is
going on. I've got people saying that to me because of the European issue. And
I say: look, for goodness sake, that is the worse thing you can do. If you
believe in a cause stay and fight for the cause, you may not be fashionable,
but what does that mean.
Talk about fashion, let me give you an
example of one of the things that is at the heart of this debate. We've got
three broad groups of newspapers involved in this, two of them are owned by
North Americans and so you get a North American agenda. You get the Murdoch
Group and you get the Black Group, the Telegraph and the Sun and The Times. Now
those are putting forward, appointing editors, appointing staff who are
Euro-sceptics in order to influence the debate. Okay, fine, that's legitimate.
Now, take the Daily Mail which is under
the editorship of a brilliant editor called Paul Dacre, He's a Euro Sceptic
and every day if you read the Daily Mail the Euro Sceptic cause is paraded.
It's not that long ago since another brilliant editor of the Daily Mail, David
English, who tragically died recently, was putting forward exactly the opposite
view, the Europhile cause and so one change of one editor and two million
people are supposed to have attitudes and prejudices totally different. One
for Europe, another against Europe. Now, if you are a politician you have got
to make up your mind, you cannot be influenced by a public opinion which has
been switched simply because one editor changed.
HUMPHRYS: The present Chairman of the Party, Cecil
Parkinson, thinks people like you, with your views, who are expressing them the
way you are, shouldn't be reselected by your constituents. It may well be that
you will be shut up?
HESELTINE: That's called freedom, it's called
democracy and it's up to my constituents. They have the right, but let me say
this, that-and there are people in my constituency who feel as Cecil does, I'm
first to say that, this is a very constroversial issue. But the one thing they
could never say, is that I have ever given them any understanding that I had
different views to the ones that I now hold. They know and have always known
exactly what my views were. And indeed, I think that there may be those who
are hostile to what I believe and I would accept that there are but my word, if
you look at my results electorally, they don't stand a great deal of criticism
and therefore there'd be a huge number of other constituents who would say to
me, we've supported you through thick and thin because we believed in what you
were and they might go too.
HUMPHRYS: This is, you've said it time and time
again in this interview, the most important issue facing this country today. It
therefore follows, does it not, that it's better that there should be a Labour
Government next time around than a Conservative one.
HESELTINE: Well I don't think you can anticipate
what the position will be at the next election.
HUMPHRYS: You know precisely..
HESELTINE: No, but let me answer the question you
haven't yet put to me, but it's obviously coming. I shall vote Conservative at
the next election.
HUMPHRYS: How can you do that and square your
conscience?
HESELTINE: I went through the scales and told you
you have to make these judgements. This is the problem with politics, it's
never simple and you don't get the easy decisions.
HUMPHRYS: Then it's not the most important issue
facing Britain is it.
HESELTINE: It is the most important thing-
HUMPHRYS: Churchill wouldn't have done that.
Churchill would have crossed the floor. You quoted Churchill a couple of times,
he did cross the floor.
HESELTINE: He did but he supported the
Conservatives in the 1930s when he was very critical of their foreign policy.
The fact is that I will..I could not vote for a Labour Government, there's not
going to be a Liberal Government. I happen to believe that if we talked about,
we should be talking about Mr Blair. Mr Blair is in my view much more guilty
than William Hague. William Hague is in opposition and I mean let's be frank
you don't actually run the country from the opposition benches. Tony Blair, he
knows exactly what's at stake and he's Prime Minister and he's sitting on the
touchlines letting this European process unfold, letting a consolidation of
power take place in Europe and simply because he believes in thermometer
politics, just sticking a thermometer in the throat of public opinion every
five minutes to find out what it thinks and then telling them that what's he
believes. I don't believe in anything like that. I believe in political
leadership and that is what we are not getting from this government.
HUMPHRYS: Michael Heseltine many thanks.
HESELTINE: Thank you.
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