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ON THE RECORD
MICHAEL HOWARD INTERVIEW
RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 4.10.98
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JOHN HUMPHRYS: It will not, Mr Howard, have solved or
changed dramatically anything. So therefore, the whole exercise was
really a waste of time. Rather foolish from...the onset.
HOWARD: No, I think it will and you've just
heard Sir Leon acknowledge that it will change things because what it will do
is establish clearly the policy of the Conservative Party. It will be
absolutely clear that the policy..
HUMPHRYS: We knew that.
HOWARD: No. You knew that it was the policy of
the shadow cabinet but it will now have the additional authority of having been
democratically approved by the membership of the party. That will be the
policy of the Conservative Party. So if Sir Leon or anybody else wants to
carry on expressing their view, it will be clear that in doing so they're going
against the clear democratically expressed view of the majority of members of
the Conservative Party and that they speak only for themselves. And that
therefore will settle the matter as far as the Conservative Party is concerned
and will enable us to go and talk about many of the other things that we want
to talk about, without constantly being driven back to this subject which, as
you know, has caused us a good deal of difficulty in the past.
HUMPHRYS: Oh yes, I've unearthed a little
bit of it myself. But I can't see how it will have achieved that though
because you will say we have this policy. Ken Clarke will pop up somewhere,
Michael Heseltine will pop up somewhere. Leon Brittan will pop up
somewhere and offer us an entirely different policy because they believe in
something quite different. So..
HOWARD: Yes, but if they do that everyone will
know that they are speaking for themselves as individuals...
HUMPHRYS: ..they will know that the party is still
split, it's still divided.
HOWARD: No, no, no because the party will have a
clear policy and we shall have to see what the majority is. I hope that there
will be a very clear majority for the shadow cabinet's policy in the ballot, so
the policy have been established and, this is very important, it is a policy
which is in tune with the instincts of a very considerable majority of the
British public. Now let me - I think I know what you're going to refer
to, but let me remind you of what some polls have said about this. Over
seventy per cent of people asked, have said they think we should look at the
Euro operating in good times and bad before deciding whether to join it. Over
seventy per cent have said, we need to look at how it operates for a number of
years after it's been fully operational before we decide to join it.
Now let me deal, in that context, with
one of the points that Sir Leon Brittan made. He said, 'You can't decide that
according to the timescale of a British parliament.' But in fact you can
because we know that the Euro is not going to be fully operational until 2002,
that is when the Deutschmark and the Franc disappear. That is when the notes
and the currency come into circulation and we say, let's look at it for a
period of years after that, that takes us to the year 2006/2007, that's the
end of the next parliament.
HUMPHRYS: Alright, let's return to that in a
minute if I may.
HOWARD: So we are being pragmatists on
this issue. We are saying it cannot be in the interests of Britain that we
should be bounced into the Euro as the government wants to do by holding a
ballot soon after the next election. We mustn't be bounced..
HUMPHRYS: Hang on, ballot's a democratic field
not..
HOWARD: Oh no, no, no. It's a question
of when the ballot is held. The ballot, if there is to be one, should be held
after we've had the opportunity of looking at it in good times and bad, not as
the government wish to do, immediately after the next election.
HUMPHRYS: Let me pick up the - still
on ballots, polls in this case not ballots. You gave me a couple of
findings that support your belief that rich people are on your side
effectively. What you didn't tell me, and this is from your own private poll,
you suspected, I suspect, that I'd already seen it and indeed I have, I've got
a extract from it here - Conservative Party's own poll - where you asked
people whether they agreed with the notion that it should be ruled out,
membership of the Euro should be ruled out for the next eight years. Only
forty-two per cent of Conservative voters, Conservative voters, said "yes" to
that. So where is the authority for the statement you made? Very selective
quotation from polls.
HOWARD: Let us see what happens in the
ballot.
HUMPHRYS: But you've already had that poll you
see.
HOWARD: The ballot is of all members of the
Conservative Party and the ballot will tell us whether we have the approval of
members of the Conservative Party, and actually every poll that has been
conducted indicates a considerable degree of scepticism on the part of the
public to the question of..
HUMPHRYS: But why didn't your own poll..
HOWARD: Hang on. Of whether Britain should join
the Euro. I'm not saying that everybody agrees with the precise number of
years that we should wait.
HUMPHRYS: But that is absolutely fundamental to
this. If we weren't talking about the lifetime of the next parliament, we'd
have no debate. Leon Brittan would have been sitting there and saying, 'I
can't stand the way this is all going.' Michael Heseltine, Ken Clarke and all
the rest of them. If you'd said rule it out for the life of this
parliament, quite happy. Look and see what happens next time. But that isn't
what you said. That is the essence of the debate - eight years. It's the
essence of it.
HOWARD: Because what we are saying is this. The
next election, when is it likely to be held? Probably 2001, something like
that. The Euro will not have come fully into operation...
HUMPHRYS: It's not the point I'm making..
HOWARD: It won't have come fully into operation.
So if we are to see it operating in good times and bad. If we are to see it
in operation for a number of years after 2002, that inevitably takes us to the
end of the next parliament.
HUMPHRYS: But you asked your own people whether
they agreed with you, with this eight year ban, you asked them and they said
no.
HOWARD: There may be some people who want us to
put it off further. There may be some people who want never to join the Euro.
You'd have to add those figures to the forty-two per cent.
HUMPHREYS: I won't bore the long suffering
audience with all of those figures there but it's perfectly clear from what
this poll has said, if you look at all of those figures that a minority of
your members want to ban entry for the next eight years. It's perfectly
clear.
HOWARD: A far greater proportion agree with our
policy, even on the figures that you're putting to me than on any other option
that was put. And that's a very, very important point.
HUMPHRYS: But you pulled out one of those findings
to support your, this...
HOWARD: Yes and you've said..
HUMPHRYS: You could have pulled out another one.
HOWARD: You've said forty-two per cent support
the policy of not..
HUMPHRYS: Less than half.
HOWARD: But if you look at the various other
options that were put, the people who supported that were very much smaller
than the forty-two per cent.
HUMPHRYS: But rather carefully asked questions
weren't they?
HOWARD: We're talking about a question that has
to do with the policy of the party.
HUMPHRYS: Alright. You say it's going to make a
difference, we're going to continue to have, some might say debate, some might
say appalling arguments dividing the party. So I come back to the question of
what fundamentally, fundamentally from the point of view of people like Sir
Leon Brittan will have changed because he believes this whole exercise is
barmy, he believes you shouldn't have done it in the first place, he's not
alone Michael Heseltine, Kenneth Clarke and many others believe the same. It
was a very odd thing to have done, even before you've had your debate at the
Party Conference in Bournemouth, was it not?
HOWARD: No, what will have changed, as Sir Leon
himself acknowledged, is that the Conservative Party, going through a
legitimate constitutional process, a democratic process which Sir Leon himself
acknowledged, would have reached a firm view on this question.
HUMPHRYS: He said it was a device that was doomed
to fail.
HOWARD: It won't any longer be possible for
anyone who disagrees with the Shadow Cabinet's policy to say: well it may be
the Shadow Cabinet's policy but it's not necesasrily the policy of the party.
It hasn't had the support of the party, the party hasn't been asked about this.
The party have been asked about this. And I hope the party will express a firm
and clear view in this ballot which will indicate very clearly what their view
is and then it will be known that Sir Leon and anybody else who wants to
continue to express their view, will be going against the view of the party and
will be speaking only for themselves.
HUMPHRYS: So what are you going to do about them?
HOWARD: Well I don't think we are going to kick
them out of the party, if that's what you have in mind. I firmly believe that
the Conservative Party has got to be a broad church, it's got to be an
inclusive party.
HUMPHRYS: And if they choose to have their own
individual statements attached to their manifesto, their own individual
manifestos if you like, what are you going to do about that?
HOWARD: Well that's something we'll consider
when we come to the next election. But what will be absolutely clear, as I keep
saying and this is the important point, is what the Conservative Party's policy
is, that will be settled and anybody who expresses a different view will be
speaking for themselves and against the view of the majority of the party. And
that's very important.
HUMPHRYS: Because when that happened in the last
election, I recall your then leader removing the Party Whip from people, with
your support as I recall, I remember talking to you about it at the time.
HOWARD: That was a very different thing. That
was - those were people who voted against the party, against the government, as
we then were, in Parliament and indeed what we were talking about then were
votes of confidence. And that's a completely different thing.
HUMPHRYS: The reason for withdrawing the Whip was
that you wanted it to be clearly seen by people outside, people in the country,
that they did not represent your views, that they were not part of your party
and you wanted to say quite clearly they're beyond the pale.
HOWARD: There were people who voted against the
policy of the party who did not have the Whip withdrawn against them. That was
in the context of a vote of confidence in a government and that was an entirely
different thing.
HUMPHRYS: So you'll do nothing about these
characters then, who continue to rock the boat, even though you have this
democratic support.
HOWARD: I've said to you, John, that I believe
the Conservative Party must be a broad party, an inclusive party with many
strands of opinion within it. What will be clear, as a result of this ballot,
is what the policy of the party is on this issue. For a long time it has been
the subject of great debate within the Conservative Party. For a long time
there have been people who have been trying to change the policy in various
ways. This ballot will settle the policy of the party clearly and definitively.
HUMPHRYS: It won't stop them trying to change it.
There's a Euro election coming up.
HOWARD: I think it will stop them trying to
change it. They will be expressing their own opinions..
HUMPHRYS: Change Leon Brittan.
HOWARD: I think so, because I think Sir Leon
will recognise, he did recognise in his answers to you, that this ballot will
represent the democratically elected view of the members of the Conservative
Party and he will accept that..
HUMPHRYS: But he then went on say quite .........
HOWARD: Won't change his mind but he will accept
that.
HUMPHRYS: But he then went on to say, quite
ludicrous to try and set policy, not just for this parliament but for the next
one as well. I mean he made it perfectly clear that that was unacceptable to
him. As indeed it is unacceptable to some of your Euro MP candidates in the
next..in next year's election. Now what are you going to do about them. They'll
pop up there, several of them with their own manifestos basically. Are you
going to say: okay fellows that's fine?
HOWARD: Well you don't know that they're going
to do that. I shall be..
HUMPHRYS: Well they've told us. I do know because
they've said so.
HOWARD: I shall be astonished if they do that.
You must remember that the Euro elections next year will be conducted on the
kind of ballot which we opposed, where people won't even be able to vote for
individual members of the European Parliament. They will have to vote for a
slate, we didn't want that but that's what's going to happen.
HUMPHRYS: William Hague: 'no-one can afford to run
an individual campaign, no-one can be allowed the luxury of saying whatever
they like'. But they are going to say whatever they like.
HOWARD: No, there won't be individual campaigns
for the European Parliament. As I've just explained the campaign for the
European Parliament will be conducted on a party basis. It has to be conducted
on a party basis, that's the kind of vote we're going to have.
HUMPHRYS: So I get Tom Spencer or somebody on this
programme, or some other programme and say what's your view on your party's -
you know what he's going to tell me.
HOWARD: People will be voting next June, in the
European Parliament elections for a party, and the policy of the Conservative
Party on Britain's entry into the Single Currency will, I hope, as a result of
this ballot, we'll know in the next twenty-four hours or so, be very clear. So
people will know exactly what they are voting for..
HUMPHRYS: Except there will be these divisions
within the party..
HOWARD: No, no..
HUMPHRYS: But they will.
HOWARD: No, they will be voting for a party that
has settled its policy, which is a policy of waiting to see the Euro in
operation..
HUMPHRYS: But it won't be acceptable..
HOWARD: In good times and bad.
HUMPHRYS: But it will not be acceptable to many of
those candidates, that's the point, they have made it absolutely clear.
HOWARD: But it will be the settled policy of the
party and it will be the party that people will be voting for.
HUMPHRYS: Well - or not as the case may be if this
carries on. If the differences carry on between them. This policy, your new
policy as of tomorrow, your clearly democratically approved of policy, will
still allow for different interpretations won't it. I put it to Sir Leon that
perhaps what actually you're after is saying, well never. That's really what
we want, we don't ever want to go, you know people like you indeed perhaps
never want to go into the Single European Currency. Others are saying: well
actually all it means is wait and see.
HOWARD: What we're saying is, it's sensible to
take these momentous decisions and it's easy to lose sight of the way in which
they're going to have a tremendous impact on jobs, on the prosperity of people
in this country. We should take these decisions an election at a time.
HUMPHRYS: Right. So are you offering the option
then of rejoining...
HOWARD: So at the next election we shall say:
it's clear to us that during the course of this parliament, we will not have
sufficient time to see the Euro..
HUMPHRYS: I understand that.
HOWARD: ..in operation to make this judgement.
HUMPHRYS: And the next step you're saying to them
is: we may very well, we're giving you the option, we may very well join the
Single European currency in the election, or following the election after
that. That's what you're saying is it?
HOWARD: We'll consider our policy on that at
that election. Let's take things an election at a time because we'll have much
more information at our disposal then. We will be able to see, for example, to
what extent the political implications of the Euro, which the present
government of this country doesn't want to talk about at all, will have come to
pass. Does it in fact mean, as many of us think it will, Europe taking over
control of taxing and borrowing and all these other things as well as the
setting of interest rates, which of course it does beyond any doubt at all.
We'll have been able to see those things in operation and we'll be able to come
to a better judgement about that at that election.
HUMPHRYS: So this is not then, what we're talking
about here. It's not a matter of principle. This is pure pragmatism.
HOWARD: There are principles involved. There
are political implications, many of us believe, in the decision to join the
Single Currency and indeed it's one of the things which the advocates of the
Single Currency in this country never talk about. If you talk to its advocates
on the Continent they will tell you that they are in favour of it because they
want to see political union, because they see it as inevitably leading to
political union. Chancellor Kohl, ex-Chancellor Kohl said so and the head of
the Bundesbank has said so.
The advocates of the Euro in this
country very rarely say so because they know there's no appetite for political
union here. What we say is, let's have a look at how it works. We think there
are very considerable political implications to this decision. We'll be in a
much better position to judge that when we've seen it operate over a period of
years and when that happens we will then make a further recommendation to the
British electorate.
HUMPHRYS: Right. So when Angus Maude, the Shadow
Chancellor says.
HOWARD: Francis Maude
HUMPHRYS: What did I say? I'm so sorry. When he
says it offers the Conservative Party, offers the option of joining in the
Parliament after next, it may be possible to join in seven or eight years. We
do not say 'never', absolutely right.
HOWARD: Well we don't say 'never'.
HUMPHRYS: Not a matter of principle.
HOWARD: We're not saying 'never'. What we're
saying is when we come to that election we'll be able to take all these things
into account and decide the only question that has to be decided always in
relation to this and every other issue is - Is it in the interests of Britain?
HUMPHRYS: Right, you're saying it might be, we're
offering you the option. You're saying it might be, we're offering you the
option.
HOWARD: What we are saying is that we will look
and see at that time, with all that we've learned by the time we get there,
whether it is likely to be in the interests of Britain to take this step.
HUMPHRYS: And the problem I have with that is that
when I read your leader, this morning I think it was, saying: 'We will not
sacrifice the greatest symbol of our freedom and our history'. Stirring words.
HOWARD: But of course absolutely right.
HUMPHRYS: Except that you're saying to me this
isn't a matter of principle. It's a matter of pragmatism.
HOWARD: Not at all.
HUMPHRYS: We actually may sacrifice the greatest
symbol of our freedom and our history. That's what you're saying to me.
HOWARD: No, I said to you a few moments ago that
principles were involved and I absolutely agree with that.
HUMPHRYS: A bit of them.
HOWARD: ..and I absolutely agree with that.
HUMPHRYS: A bit of a principle here and a bit
there.
HOWARD: We can decide our policy on these
issues, election by election and that's what we're going to do. Now, it may
well be..
HUMPHRYS: Principles don't - I mean at what point
will the pound, because I assume that's what it's on about. At what time, at
what stage does the pound stop being the greatest symbol of our freedom of our
history.
HOWARD: I think that's exactly what it is. And
that's why..
HUMPHRYS: Then we'll never get rid of it will we.
HOWARD: I think it will take a great deal to
persuade us to get rid of it.
HUMPHRYS: But how could we ever. Freedom....
HOWARD: Let us take all of these issues and
these very momentous and very important issues an election at a time. We learn
more about the Euro as time goes on..
HUMPHRYS: We don't learn any more about our
principles..
HOWARD: We learn more about how it's operating.
We learn more about whether or not there are these great economic benefits that
people like Sir Leon Brittan say there are. We take all of those matters into
account and then we make our judgement. What is absolutely clear..
HUMPHRYS: You say gentlemen those were my
principles and if you don't like them I've got others.
HOWARD: What is absolutely clear is that it is
not going to be in the interests of Britain for us to join the Single Currency
until we've seen it operating in good times and bad. That takes us at least to
the end of the next parliament.
HUMPHRYS: Fundamental question of our freedom and
our history. How will that change.
HOWARD: Because we will see the extent to which
the Euro does indeed pose a threat. Many of us think it poses a great threat to
those very important considerations, to those very important British interests,
but we'll make that decision when the time comes.
HUMPHRYS: Michael Howard, thank you very much.
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