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ON THE RECORD
MO MOWLAM INTERVIEW
RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 1.3.98
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JOHN HUMPHRYS: But first, Northern Ireland. This week
the talks will start up again, but Sinn Fein will not be at the negotiating
table. They were thrown out because two men were murdered and the Ulster
police blamed the IRA. They're supposed to be back next week, but to do what
precisely? The Ulster Unionists won't talk to them directly and the
negotiations, such as they are, seem to be making very little progress indeed.
And the clock is ticking. The talks have to end within the next six weeks
because the government set a deadline of May 7th for a referendum to be held on
any new agreement. The Northern Ireland Secretary Mo Mowlam is with me.
Good afternoon, Dr. Mowlam.
MO MOWLAM: Good afternoon, John.
HUMPHRYS: Can I quote you what you said: "It is
hard to stay positive about the talks", you said that in a speech on Friday
evening. Is there any real chance, as we speak, that this process is going to
get anywhere - that it is going to end up with an agreement?
MOWLAM: Yes, there is, and I think if my memory
serves me right I said that on Friday night in the context of the bombings that
we have recently had in Moira and Portadown and we haven't had a good time in
the last month in terms of the violence, but a lot of that one has to remember
- which is why I am confident we are going to make progress in the talks - a
lot of that violence has come from groups that aren't related or represented in
the talks, but are splinter groups who are not on ceasefire, who do not believe
in the talks process and are in fact out to destroy it by trying to bring one
of the parties - the groups represented by parties in the talks - back to
violence. So it's encumbent upon us all to work hard and I believe the leaders
of the parties - let me just say - this week we've made real progress in those
talks, we are down to detail, there are timetables set for the next week and
- yes - I'm confident that we can reach some kind of accommodation in the next
six/eight weeks and head for a referendum at the beginning of May so that the
parties, the people and Parliament - as we've always said, that triple lock
will work.
HUMPHRYS: Let's just pick up a bit of what you
said there. You said a lot of the violence, but of course not all of the
violence has been carried out by fringe groups, some of it has been carried out
you believe by the principles, or at least their associates.
MOWLAM: Well, that's why in your introduction,
the IRA - I think the words used were "have been blamed". Yes, the information
that I am given by my security advisers and the RUC is that there was
incontrovertible evidence that the IRA were associated with the murders of Mr
Dougan and Mr Campbell. In the face of that and the man that has been charged
has just joined the PIRA Wing at the Maze - the Provisional IRA. In the face
of that it is crucial that we keep the integrity of the talks process together
because we were faced with a judgement. We were given information that the IRA
were involved. We want to keep the talks as inclusive as possible because the
more people represented round the table the more likely we are to get a
settlement, but you can't do that if the integrity of the process is violated,
because you won't then have a talks process worth having.
HUMPHRYS: And it's arguable whether it's worth
having without Sinn Fein and it is at least possible as we speak, is it not,
that they will not come back to those talks next week or the week after or the
week after that.
MOWLAM: Well, I had to make a judgement, along
with the Irish Government in Dublin a week ago now, and we discussed it with
the parties. We were given the evidence, we looked at the integrity of the
talks. Now you will either ask me this question in the sense of 'We can't
continue without Sinn Fein' or you could have said 'You are letting Sinn Fein
in after a limited time period, that's not fair either'. We had to make a
judgement between integrity of the process and the principles of democracy and
non-violence which the talks are based on, the timespan we have left before the
six weeks is up and the need for an inclusive process, and we made a judgement
that there was a need for exclusion for a time period up to March 9th.
HUMPHRYS: But you may end that period and say "All
right, they can come back," as you have done, but they may say "No, we are not
prepared to come back," and indeed Gerry Adams has been making it perfectly
clear that he will not come back unless the Prime Minister sees him, has talks
with him. Is that going to happen?
MOWLAM: Well, let me just say on the first point
that Gerry Adams has made it clear that he's not certain at what time he'll
come back but what we will do is set the date and if by word and deed the
ceasefire holds we will invite them back, we can't force them to come, we can't
force Mr Paisley or Mr McCarthy but we'd like them there too.
HUMPHRYS: No, but you can say to the Prime
Minister "I think you ought to see Gerry Adams and then he'll come back,"
because you say you are not sure what he'll do. What he said was, let me quote
from what he said in the Irish Times, I think it was, yesterday: "We'll do that
meeting when that happens, then we will decide..." he's talking about the Blair
meeting "...then we will decide after the Blair meeting what we are going to do
next." So implicit in that is that he will not decide on whether to return to
the talks unless and until he has had that meeting with Tony Blair.
MOWLAM: Yes, but also if you look at that quote
very carefully, John, it doesn't actually say he will come back. He will
decide then whether he will come back in. It's his decision.
HUMPHRYS: Well, do you think Mr Blair should meet
him to encourage him to come back?
MOWLAM: Well, Mr Blair will make his decision.
HUMPHRYS: What would your recommendation be?
MOWLAM: Well, I would recommend that he treats
all parties with fairness and justice the same.
HUMPHRYS: Well, what does that mean in this
context?
MOWLAM; Well, in this context the UDP who were
out for a time period too and Sinn Fein were first seen by officials then seen
by Minister Murphy and eventually by the Prime Minister.
HUMPHRYS: So should he see him before March the
Ninth. That is the date which is..
MOWLAM I think there is no doubt that he will
see them, but the time...
HUMPHRYS: Before March the Ninth?
MOWLAM: No, the time decision is his, and when I
spoke to him on Friday he has yet to make that decision. Now I will support
the decision of the Prime Minister. I'm not going to sit here and peel off
from him. We've discussed it, he's thinking about it, and he'll make his own
decision, and I'll back that. He's the Prime Minister.
HUMPHRYS: But you'd like Sinn Fein to be back at
that table wouldn't you?
MOWLAM: Yes, but that is not me saying that that
should happen before March the Ninth. I've made it clear that we've discussed
it, the Prime Minister will make his decision. I want all parties to be
treated the same; the UDP were out, they came back last Monday, and Sinn Fein
will be treated the same, and the Prime Minister as you well know John, will
make up his own mind when he thinks the time is right.
HUMPHRYS: He'll have to do it fairly soon won't
he?
MOWLAM: Yep.
HUMPHRYS: And without Sinn Fein this is not what
you describe as an inclusive process - this is not a properly inclusive
process, and even more important than that, without Sinn Fein there is not
ultimately going to be peace is there?
MOWLAM: Well it's not inclusive even with Sinn
Fein, because we don't have Mr Paisley's DUP Party and we don't have Mr
McCartney's UKUP Party.
HUMPHRYS: But you do have a majority of
Protestants, of ...
MOWLAM: We have ... yes, and we've said that no
party can hold the process up to ransom, and we would look forward if by word
and deed Sinn Fein ceasefire - the IRA ceasefire holds, seeing Sinn Fein back
into the talks. We want it as inclusive as possible because when the principle
of consent works by the parties reaching sufficient consensus in talks and the
referendum. we want that to be as positive representing the vast, vast majority
of people in Northern Ireland. But it's like so many issues, you can
encourage, you can act, but you can't force people to make decisions.
HUMPHRYS: The difference between Sinn Fein and
Doctor Paisley's party for instance is that Sinn Fein is crucial to peace.
MOWLAM: Well, I think that representation across
the divide is crucial to peace.
HUMPHRYS: But that's different isn't it. I mean
what we're talking about is an organisation that is closely tied in with the
IRA, and if Sinn Fein for whatever reason abandons this process, effectively,
that is the end of the ceasefire isn't it?
MOWLAM: Well, there isn't ...
HUMPHRYS: Of the IRA ceasefire.
MOWLAM: Of the IRA ceasefire there is no doubt,
and I've made my position clear, I would like to see Sinn Fein back in the
talks, if the integrity of the process is protected, but if it's not neither
party, as we've shown this week from the extremes, all parties from the middle
can veto the process. While we have representation in the form of the UUP and
the SDLP representing the vast majority of both communities then the process
will continue.
HUMPHRYS: Not a vast majority, not a vast
majority. If you exclude all the others that we've talked about it doesn't
become a vast majority does it?
MOWLAM: No. I'll give you it's not vast, but
it's a majority, and we've said a majority will suffice. Now, I've made it
clear that I don't want it to just be a small majority. I got into a lot of
trouble about two months ago by saying I want the consent to be much broader, I
want it to be a greater number of both communities that agree with the final
accommodation, but you can't insist on that because you can't insist that
people come in the process. We have to go with a clear majority if that's
all we've got. Not a desireable outcome, but an outcome nonetheless.
HUMPHRYS: But with or without Sinn Fein isn't the
truth that you are not close to an agreement - you are a very very long way
away from it and you don't have very long to go?
MOWLAM: No, I don't accept that at all
It can be a long way if there is not a spirit and a determination and a courage
to get there, and I think if we look at the parties in the talks process there
is a will there, there's a will among the parties and there is certainly a will
among the people of Northern Ireland to reach an accommodation, so I don't
think it is problematic. I mean I've said so often ..
HUMPHRYS; Will it be problematic?
MOWLAM: Well, it's problematic, but I don't
think it's unlikely. Let me just say - explain in a little more detail why I
feel - give me a chance to do so, and that is that - I mean the ball park that
it will come into is most people know roughly what it looks like, some form of
devolution - some form of North/South co-operation, some change in East/West
relations, movement on equality issues, employment, fair and just legislation
on employment rights. So that is the ball park that we're talking in. Now, I
don't know if you aked any of the party leaders - I would guess there's about
ten dozen areas which are conflictual in terms of different views. I mean,
in - let's take what we call strand one, which is the devolved - some form of
devolution, there's disagreement as to the nature of representation, good old
politics, who's going to get a chance to get elected. There is discussion
about the nature of the cabinet, the executive, what they should look like,
should it be there at all. If you go onto the North/South co-operation, the
nature of the body, how it gets it powers, who is
HUMPHYRS: What powers it has.
MOWLAM: What powers it has.
HUMPHRYS: Crucial stuff this. You're dismissing
these things as though these are kind of details - they're not, they're
absolutely fundamental.
MOWLAM: They're fundamental - they're
fundamental and I'm just pointing out - not dismissing them, not saying they're
not difficult. We're going to have a very tough six weeks. We've got a lot of
hurdles to climb over, along with as we began talking, that fringe violence on
the edges by people that aren't committed to the process. It isn't going to
be easy.
HUMPHRYS: No. I mean Bertie Ahern the Irish Prime
Minister said there were ten major - at least I think he said ten major areas
of disagreement at this stage.
MOWLAM: They are serious issues, but you have
to, as is always the way forward in this, is you have to be confident. I could
sit here and say: John, we've got ten really difficult issues, major, I just
don't think we are going to make it.
HUMPHRYS: Of course.
MOWLAM: If you do that you fail.
HUMPHRYS: Well.
MOWLAM: You will fail by default.
HUMPHRYS: On the other hand to be unrealistic is
another matter isn't it.
MOWLAM: I don't think I am being unrealistic
because I mean people said we were unrealistic last September when we said
talks on fifteenth of September inclusive. Didn't get there until the
twenty-fourth but we got there. Now, I believe if I sat back and said: serious,
serious problems, they would become serious problems. It would be a
self-fulfilling prophesy. But I believe that if you get the momentum going,
parties are engaging, yes it's difficult, yes it isn't going to be easy, but I
believe, looking at the party leaders this week, in the talks process-
HUMPHRYS: Some of them.
MOWLAM: ...there can be accommodation.
HUMPHRYS: Do you want to go off to a mountain top,
you know, somewhere away from the hurly-burly, an island or a ....
MOWLAM: I made the fatal mistake in an interview
like this of having an off-hand joke and suggesting Bermuda. It's cost me
dearly because-
HUMPHRYS: Well I heard Wales as well, which isn't
perhaps as far away.
MOWLAM: No, some support for Wales and I have to
say the press kind of keep coming up to me with Thailand, Caribbean.
HUMPHRYS: So what are you going to do. Are you
going to go away or stay put?
MOWLAM: It will be up to the parties themselves.
I mean I've said that I think ..
HUMPHRYS: Mr Trimble apparently doesn't want to
go, does he?
MOWLAM: Well I think the parties have mixed
views. We got some of them given to us last week, they'll discuss it again this
week.
HUMPHRYS: Are you broadly in favour?
MOWLAM: Well I think there's a case for it. But
I'm not broadly in favour if the parties don't want to go, 'cause it would be a
waste of time, and we don't have in fact a very good track record, we went to
London, to Lancaster House and lost the UDP, went to Dublin Castle and lost
Sinn Fein. So, the track record is not good but if the parties think it would
help, then it would be a plus. But, the difficulty, why I want it, is the
press and the press are crucial to this process, it's crucial that the
arguments are put to the public. The public need, in Northern Ireland and the
Republic to eventually vote in a referendum, if we get that far and I believe
we will and it's important the arguments are put across. But to negotiate
through the press is counter-productive. So, we're caught in a contradiction
and that's one of the things that we're trying to work through in the next six
weeks, to give enough information to you, that the public know what's going on,
but not enough that people entrench and they discuss an issue and then they
have to go out and tell the cameras were they stand. It doesn't help the
discussions the next morning.
HUMPHRYS: Alright. Well let's look at - we've
glanced over the issues in a sense, 'cause I know you're not going to go into
those details for the reasons that you've put, quite sensibly no doubt. But,
let's look at the timetable. You talked about the referendum there, May the
seventh is when it is supposed to happen, by May the seventh. Will you have
something to put to that referendum on or before May the seventh?
MOWLAM: Well it's a tight timetable, I don't
deny. We're working very hard to get legislation together, to get the electoral
machine up, to get the referenda there and we're aiming for May the seventh.
Now, the only drawback is legislation, getting it through the Dail and getting
legislation through the Parliament-
HUMPHRYS: Legislation for the referendum itself.
MOWLAM: Yes and for the legislation that's
necessary to facilitate that, but that is what we're aiming for. Now, I don't
think it's - I think it's very difficult but I think we will get there. You ask
whether we've got an agreement to-
HUMPHRYS: The question, you know the document on
which people will vote.
MOWLAM: Well all that's being worked on, the
mechanics are being worked on now. The actual document clearly needs to come
organically out of the process. Now-
HUMPHRYS: And if it doesn't?
MOWLAM: Well, we'll wait and - I mean of course
we're looking at options if it doesn't. But, I have found that the tough way is
if I say to you now: well if we don't we're going to do this and then we'll do
that, those that benefit most from what we'll do will stop negotiating. So at
all interviews I stick to the point that we're going to make it. Now of course
we're looking at other options but I believe that if we're determined enough we
can do it. If you look at the number of papers from parties, papers from the
British Government, Irish Government, that are in debate and discussion now,
yes a synthesis will have to be made by George Mitchell, by the governments, by
us, by the Irish, I don't know who yet. but the amount of information, ideas,
agreements, that have been made, yes we've got tough ones to make. I think
there is enough there and enough momentum that we can make it.
HUMPHRYS: But the reason I raised that question is
that if there isn't, if it doesn't come out of the Talks organically, you use
your word, then people like the Unionists for instance, for whom you might
argue the status quo was preferable to any radical solution to this, to any
radical changes, they might well say: well we won't allow that to happen, we
won't allow it to develop organically, we will sit on it. I'm not saying they
will, but they could take that view. You will then be faced with a position of
nothing, in theory, to put before the referendum and if we see this in terms of
a contest, they will have won.
MOWLAM: Well, any party can be very awkward and
not reach agreement but as I say to you, up to now one doesn't feel that from
any of those round the table. The Talks are working, the Talks are engaged.
Now, and we will see what comes out of that process. Now, we will not, outside
of the Talks process, put down something without their concurrence. People keep
asking me this and saying: it's inevitable, the British and Irish will work
something up and put it to people in Northern Ireland.
HUMPHRYS: Surely you might have to alter it.
MOWLAM: Yes but unless we can work with the
parties, and I believe we can in the next six weeks, to find a synthesis, an
accommodation that has come out of that process, we are in the ridiculous
situation of going to Northern Ireland with the parties not in agreement. Now,
are you going to win a referendum in that situation, you have the
representatives in the parties campaigning against you? It ain't a winning
scenario to my mind. So, I think we stay with it, we don't close off options,
we don't close doors down, but we stay with where we are now because progress
is being made and I think with a determination and a will, which I know is
there, we'll make it.
HUMPHRYS: You used the word in your Friday speech,
a "prerequisite", I think you were referring to agreement between the parties.
We need "accommodation", I think was the expression - accommodation between the
parties - that was a "prerequisite". But ultimately, of course, it may not be,
might it? Because ultimately if you stick to that rigidly and say we must have
agreement between these parties, nothing may happen, because the other thing
you went on to say in that speech - and I was interested in the contrast in a
sense - is: we need the support of representatives of both communities but
enough to satisfy a majority of both sides represented at the Talks. Now, it
may be that in the end you are going to have to say: we are not going to get
this agreement, there isn't going to be that will there, there may be problems,
there may be big problems, there may be relatively small problems but
ultimately you are going to have to produce that bit of paper that says this is
what we want people to vote on.
MOWLAM: But there's a difference - as they
always say "with respect", there is a difference-
HUMPHRYS: They only say that when they meant to be
rude-
MOWLAM: I know, that's why I didn't say it.
There is a difference between sufficient consensus - which has always been the
first step that when the parties are in the Talks trying to find agreement, it
doesn't have to be a hundred per cent, it has to be a majority of both
communities represented in the Talks. So that's what I mean by sufficient
consensus as the first step. So it may mean that some parties in the Talks,
some of the smaller parties potentially don't acquiesce, aren't happy with it
all, but on balance either accept it or reject bits of it. So sufficient
consensus is the first for anything to come out of the Talks, so it can't come
just as a result of Nationalist wishes or Unionist wishes. So that's the first
step for it to become part of the agreement. When it goes into the referendum
it is a majority of those people voting. So that's how it's built in and
that's why I say sufficient consensus for it to go into the-what comes into
the final accommodation. Now, I'm not going to say that if we don't get that
sufficient consensus we will do A, B and C, because I still believe that's
possible. I know that's a bit unhelpful for-
HUMPHRYS: I thought you were going to say
"unlikely" for a moment.
MOWLAM: No, no, it's unhelpful in a debate or a
discussion like this because it doesn't give you options afterwards, but I just
know if I say these are the options then the parties will start identifying
with those. I think in a process like this - and I'm not alone in this, you
couldn't be alone - there is a great determination to push this forward. You
know, I get on interviews like this but you should see people that have given
years of their lives to make this..to move this forward, and I believe we are
at a better position now than we've ever been. We've got, for example, if I
can just say we've got President Santer in Belfast on Monday. Europe,
America, other countries have put a lot of money into Northern Ireland, not
just in investment but encouraging cross community exchanges. We have, I
believe, now in Northern Ireland - yes, a people that are very scared of these
random bombings that we began off with at Moira and Portadown, people are
lacking in confidence because you don't live with that degree of random
violence but alongside that there is a belief that this is the best chance
we've got.
HUMPHRYS: But what you said in the earlier part of
that answer suggests quite clearly that if Sinn Fein for instance do not go
along, don't even return to the talks, or whatever, an agreement without them
is entirely possible. Something that you can put to a referendum is entirely
possible.
MOWLAM: Er, yes, as I've said I would prefer
that isn't the case because I want them to be inclusive and Sinn Fein at the
table would offer a perspective that is crucial. But the process can't be held
up by one party, a smaller party, if the majority still holds. Legally that's
right. It's not a helpful situation, it's not ideal, it does make the level of
settlement harder to reach, but I would like it to be inclusive but if it's not
I can't do anything about that.
HUMPHRYS: Let's assume that you get to within six
weeks of the referendum and you have to decide to put the whole process in
train, because it takes quite a while to actually handle the arrangements and
all that, and you think you are going to get there but you are not quite there
yet, are you prepared to delay the referendum?
MOWLAM: What I want to do is make that decision
when faced with those facts.
HUMPHRYS: It's a possibility then, clearly, in
that case.
MOWLAM: Well, I tend to avoid hypothetical
questions because then you give hypothetical headlines which aren't helpful to
the process so I'm going to body-swerve that one because I'm not sure-
HUMPHRYS: You are not going to answer it at all-
MOWLAM: -I'm not going to answer it at all.
HUMPHRYS: -but it's got to be a possibility,
hasn't it?
MOWLAM: Well as I said on the Talks, we started
the Talks in theory on fifteenth, got in on the twenty-fourth. But, so, a
slight delay is possible, of course. But let me just say, what do we have
further down the road, we have the parades. Now, I don't think anybody would
want to hold a referendum in the middle of the marching season. We've set up a
commission to try and facilitate accommodation to avoid some of the appalling
atrocities that we've seen in the last couple of years, particularly. But that
is a kind of end point in some senses, and I don't think it will be terribly
positive to leave it for the whole of the summer.
HUMPHRYS: But, can we be clear about one thing.
This has been a long process and a lot of effort, as you say, has gone into it.
Is it conceivable even, that at the end of it all, the status quo will remain,
that there will be no change to Northern Ireland's constitution or anything
else. That we will be back to where we were at the beginning, or whatever
happens, are you putting all the parties on notice that something is going to
change one way or the other?
MOWLAM: Well, I accept your first point that
previous governments, both Irish and GB, have made a real effort to change
this, people in Northern Ireland have. So I acknowledge the real push that we
have now. I'm not going to say that we are definitely going to put something
because that's imposition and we are not going to do that. But what I can say
will change, is a British Government, who in our manifesto were committed to a
Parades Commission, we've done it, changes to emergency legislation, we've done
it, help with unemployment new deal, benefits, changes to Welfare System, on
their way. Fairness agenda, fairness in employment equality, we'll be
announcing in the next couple of weeks. The European Convention on Human
Rights, discuss a Local Bill of Rights. I can see you are going to tell me to
shut up. But that is what will change and we are making very sure that what we
committed to people throughout the United Kingdom, will happen in Northern
Ireland. A fairness and equality agenda which will make a difference to
people's lives.
HUMPHRYS: Mo Mowlam, thank you very much indeed.
MOWLAM: Thank you very much John.
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