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                                 ON THE RECORD 
                            IAN McCARTNEY INTERVIEW       
 
RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1                                 DATE: 30.11.97
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JOHN HUMPHRYS:                         The Government has just published the 
Bill which will end up bringing in a Minimum Wage and it's left an awful lot of 
questions unanswered.  On the face of it, it's straightforward enough.  No one 
should earn below a certain amount.  But it's not as simple as that.  The 
trickiest question of all is what level the wage should be.  A commission has 
been set up to deal with the Low Pay Commission - but how will they work it 
out?  The Minister responsible is Ian McCartney - and he's in our studio in 
Manchester.  Good Afternoon to you. 
 
IAN McCARTNEY MP:                      Good Afternoon, John.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              They've been told - The Low Pay 
Commission, that is, has been told to take into account economic 
circumstances.  Now, does that mean that you would not accept a recommendation 
from them on the level of the Minimum Wage, if you thought that as a result of 
that being implemented jobs would be lost.   
 
McCARTNEY:                             I think, the first thing to do is to 
make sure that the Low Pay Commission finishes its work on time.  We've asked 
them to finish this job by the end of May next year, which then gives us the 
opportunity because by that stage the legislation will be in place and using  
the legislation will implement a National Minimum Wage.  And, that's critically 
important.  What the Low Pay Commission is doing just now is visiting every 
region in England, Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales and will gather the 
evidence and confer with is recommendations.  That's exactly what we asked it 
to do.   
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Yeah, indeed.  But, I mean, why I'm 
asking you is the broad question, which you will, obviously, have considered 
because it's absolutely crucial to ... your whole economic equation is balanced 
on creating more jobs.  Now, if, if what they come up with is a Minimum Wage 
which in your view would actually damage that, would lose jobs rather than 
create them, what's your view gonna be?  You must have given that thought? 
 
McCARTNEY:                             Well, there is nobody in the Low Pay 
Commission from my point of view that an expert academic with knowledge of the 
labour market, whether from employers - small or large - or from the Trade 
Unions, won't do anything other than bring forward a workable Minimum Wage.  
We're all committed to that and that was the whole- 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              No, that's not the point.   That's not 
the point I'm asking you.  
 
McCARTNEY:                             It is the point.  No.  The point you're 
asking me, quite frankly, is a non-point.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Of course, it's not!  Professor Bain,
himself, who is the Chairman of the Committee, has said: I would be surprised 
if there were not some job losses.  
 
McCARTNEY:                             No.  That's not what he said, at all.  
What Professor Bain said is that if there's Minimum Wages set at unacceptably 
high levels, then, there'll be job losses.  The whole purpose of the Low Pay 
Commission... 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              I'd be surprised if there weren't some 
job losses with a Minimum Wage! 
 
McCARTNEY:                             The Low Pay Commission has been given a 
task of establishing recommendations based on economic circumstances.  To do 
that, they are taking evidence and are taking evidence throughout the United 
Kingdom.  Secondly, they were also asked to take into account the consequences 
for Minimum Wages, in regard to training in young people and we will bring 
forward recommendations in relation to that.   And, when we've done so, the 
Government will, then, take note of us and, then, will proceed for the 
establishment of the Minimum Wage.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Right.  So, in other words, I want to 
come on to young people and training in a second.  But, in other words, you are 
quite clear that what they do, when they recommend that Minimum Wage, they will 
not recommend it at such a level that they, or anybody else would think - you, 
in Government would think - it might cost a few jobs.  Because if that's the 
case they know you will not accept it.  Is that it?  
 
McCARTNEY:                             The Low Pay Commission is a social 
partnership Commission.  Everybody's who's gone on to the Commission has gone 
on, on the basis that they have to find a workable solution for the Minimum 
Wage - no more and no less than that.   
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Right.  So, in other words, if it's too 
high - you wouldn't expect it to be - but if it were too high, you would say: 
That's no good?  
 
McCARTNEY:                             Well, that's the whole purpose of the 
Government - given consideration to its reports.  What we've asked it to do is 
to bring forward that report by the end of May next year so that we can get on 
with the job of establishing the Minimum Wage.  We've got eight hundred 
thousand people plus out there earning less than two pounds fifty an hour - 
that's three-quarters of a million families who, at the end of the week, are 
earning so little, have to rely on State Benefits.  The time is long overdue 
for the establishment of the Minimum Wage and that's why we've acted so 
quickly, in setting up the Low Pay Commission and bringing forward the 
legislation. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Well, let's look at a couple of the 
reasons, then, why it's gonna have to be pretty low.  One of them is is that it 
is national - it is going to be based on a national figure.  There aren't going 
to be regional variations.  So, that means, again, they're going to have to be 
pretty low because there is a huge difference in the cost of living from one 
part of Britain to another and so on.  So, you could not impose a Minimum Wage 
on Liverpool or Belfast or somewhere where the cost of living is so much lower 
than in London.  Now, that means that the level - the national level - is gonna 
have to be pretty low, doesn't it? 
 
McCARTNEY:                             Well, look, let's get straight.  After 
eighteen years of Conservative Government, it doesn't matter what region - 
city, town, urban or rural in Britain - wherever you are, there's large, 
extensive levels of low pay.  The last Government got rid of all of the 
pressures in the economy, in the sense of Wages Councils.  Wages Councils in 
the last Government were got rid of.  As a consequence of that we've got large 
numbers of unemployed, wherever you are - Scotland, Wales, England, London, 
Belfast, wherever you are in Britain.  The one feature that was left by the 
last Government was a large pool of low-paid workers and left with a Minimum 
Wage on a national basis, wherever you are in Britain, if you are a low-paid 
worker you will benefit from the Minimum Wage.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Ah, right.  Perhaps.  But, the question 
is- 
 
McCARTNEY:                             It's not 'perhaps' - it's absolute fact. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Well, yeah, but the extent is to what?  
How much will you benefit from it?  And, what I'm suggesting to you is because 
you've excluded regional variations in the Wage, it's going to have to be 
fairly low.  Otherwise, jobs would be lost in areas where they would say quite 
properly: I'm sorry, we simply can't afford to pay these kinds of wages.  
That's why I'm suggesting it's going to have to be fairly low.  It's a fairly 
obvious point, isn't it?  
 
McCARTNEY:                             Well, the whole purpose of the Low Pay 
Commission is to evidence on that basis.  But, to be quite frank with you, 
there's fifty odd thousand people in London who earn under two pounds fifty an 
hour.  In East Anglia it's fifty odd thousand and in the West Country it's the 
same.  Wherever you go in Britain, low levels of pay.  The issue isn't the 
region, it's how many.  And, the fact of the matter is, we've inherited a large 
pool of people who are earning so little, they have to rely on State Benefits 
and the whole purpose of the Minimum Wage is alongside our Welfare to Work 
benefits.  The changes in the Tax system that Gordon Brown wants to introduce 
over a period of time, with these three measures, will not only get people in 
work but where they're in work, they won't be exploited.  And, that's why the 
Minimum Wage is part of measures - a range of measures - which will mean 
fairness in the workplace.  Alongside fairness, with training and adaptability 
of the workplace will ensure that people can remain in work and where they're 
in work get a decent wage.   
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Let me give you another reason why the 
wage will have to be at a fairly low level and that's the fact that there 
aren't currently any variations between industries.  If you take something like 
the hotel industry, for instance, the catering industries, they are notorious - 
for reasons which they would explain - for having to pay fairly low wages.  So, 
again, it would have to be set at a level that wouldn't fatally damage those 
industries, wouldn't it? 
 
McCARTNEY:                             There's no excuse for paying one pound 
twenty, one thirty, one forty an hour, whether it's in the hotel or catering 
industry, or hairdressing. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Well four pounds an hour would be a 
different matter, wouldn't it? 
 
McCARTNEY:                             John, give me-give me any national or 
international example because you pay a hairdresser a decent wage that people 
in the country stop having their hair cut.  It's an absolute nonsense.  The 
fact of the matter is this is the first Government, the first ever Government, 
which is putting in place within six months, a jobs and training package to get 
people into work and, when they're in work, through the Minimum Wage prevent 
them from being exploited.  An overwhelming majority of employers now accept a 
Minimum Wage and the reason why that is: employers in Britain competing for 
goods and services are sick and tired of being undercut not in quality but by 
cowboy employers who want to win contracts on a simple premise of paying people 
one twenty, one thirty, one forty, one fifty an hour.  And so there's a 
business case as well as a social justice case for introduction of a Minimum 
Wage. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              So it might well be higher than I'm 
assuming then, because you are saying:so be it.  If you can't afford to pay it, 
that's tough?. 
 
McCARTNEY:                             No.  The whole purpose of the Low Pay 
Commission, John - you're really a bit of an old cynic - getting. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              No, I'm trying to get a few answers!  
That's all! 
 
McCARTNEY:                             The Low Pay Commission-The Low Pay 
Commission has got the job of coming forward by the end of next May to give the 
Government a range of recommendations including a range for a statutory Minimum 
Wage. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              I know- 
 
McCARTNEY:                             But on that Low Pay Commission are 
employers from small employers, large, medium-sized representatives across the 
economy and-and employee representatives.  The whole purpose of the Low Pay 
Commission is to be able to have the skills and knowledge base to bring forward 
a national Minimum Wage based on their knowledge of industry and the evidence 
that they receive during this period of evidence-gathering. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Let's look at young people, then - you 
mentioned them earlier.  There is a recommendation to the Low Pay Commission 
that they should consider exempting them.  In reality you would have to exempt 
young people, wouldn't you? 
 
McCARTNEY:                              Well, the whole purpose of- and I don't 
want to get too technical - Clause 3 and 4 of the Bill was to implement a 
Manifesto commitment. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Let's not get technical, though. 
 
McCARTNEY:                              OK.  Well, fair enough.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              I mean, let's just deal with just that 
straightforward point that I am making.  
 
McCARTNEY:                             Well, I-..  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              You're gonna have to exempt young 
people, aren't you? 
 
McCARTNEY:                             I think it's important to those who are 
listening to show just how much detail the Government has been prepared to go 
into to make this work and before the Election we made it absolutely clear that 
a Low Pay Commission should consider the issue of young people and young people 
in training.  After all, for over a century now it's been accepted practice in 
the United Kingdom that young people so long as they are in training and 
quality training always receive a lower rate and, therefore, in considering an 
introductory Minimum Wage we've asked the Low Pay Commission to give specific 
consideration to the needs of young people.  Alongside that of course the 
Government has also itself put into place the biggest ever investment programme 
in young people ever - three and a half billion pounds investment in young 
people in jobs in training.  So we are doing good. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Right, okay.  Yeah.  We've just heard 
that from Alistair Darling so let me leapfrog that if I may.  What you are 
saying, let's- 
 
McCARTNEY:                             Why leapfrog it?   
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Well because Alistair Darling has told 
it.  We don't want to go over it again, do we?  Let me just ask you this- 
 
McCARTNEY:                             But the point is, John, it's very 
important to get this straight.  Young people under this Government will 
benefit greatly.  We want young people in work and where they're in work we 
want them to be trained and not to be exploited. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Right.  
 
McCARTNEY:                             And, therefore, the link between the 
jobs and training programme is important in relation to why the Low Pay 
Commission is being asked to consider the needs of young people. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Right, but let me be clear that all 
young people will be exempted from the minimum wage, right?  Everybody under 
the age of twenty six - from twenty five down, they will all be exempt. 
 
McCARTNEY:                             No, that's not what's been said.  That's 
not what we said. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              That's not what's being said?  Oh! 
 
McCARTNEY:                             The Low Pay Commission's been asked to 
give consideration to this and then to come forward with recommendations and 
all that we have put in the legislation is the capacity to take account of any 
recommendation from the Low Pay Commission.  It is for them to give 
consideration, it's for them to come forward with recommendations. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Is it going to be phased in when we 
finally get it and it's agreed?  Is it going to be phased in over a period of 
time or implemented bang from day one? 
 
McCARTNEY:                               The whole purpose of getting a rate 
and the whole purpose of having legislative programme now is to give the 
Government the opportunity to introduce the Minimum Wage as soon as we possibly 
can and that's the intention.  We made it clear before the Election and 
immediately after by putting the Low Pay Commission, the Minimum Wage Bill in 
the Queen's Speech.  That is a priority policy and in working with industry, 
working with the Low Pay Commission we'll try to ensure that in the process we 
will be able to implement it as soon as we practically can. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Which means from day one and no phasing 
in at all? 
 
McCARTNEY:                             Well, what we're saying is that people  
from day one of their employment will be entitled to a national Minimum Wage. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              What if you're already in work? 
 
McCARTNEY:                             Well they'll be entitled to a national 
Minimum Wage if they're receiving-if they're receiving on the day the national 
Minimum Wage comes in less than the national Minimum Wage, they'll be 
entitled to the Minimum Wage. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Thank you very much indeed for joining 
us this morning. 
 
McCARTNEY:                             Thank you for asking us, John. 
 
 
 
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