................................................................................
ON THE RECORD
RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 12.10.97
................................................................................
JOHN HUMPHRYS: Good afternoon. The government says
it's going to get young people in Britain off the dole and into work... and off
drugs and out of crime. I'll be talking to the two ministers who have that
task. That's after the News read by MOIRA STUART.
NEWS
HUMPHRYS: In opposition the Labour Party made five
firm pledges. One of them was to find jobs for unemployed young people.
Another was to crack down on youth crime. Last week the government gave us
somemore details about what it's going to do for youngsters on the dole. I'll
be talking to the Employment Minister Andrew Smith about that.
But first, what are they going to do
about young people who get involved in crime? They've already said they'll
speed up the legal system but they've yet to say how precisely. AND this week
we'll know more about what they're going to do about the growing drugs problem
...one of the main reasons why so many youngsters turn to crime in the first
place. There will be a new drugs czar or perhaps czars, maybe two of them, but
what can that achieve? I put that question first to the Home Office Minister
Alun Michael when I spoke to him this morning.
ALUN MICHAEL: Well, I think as far as the fight
against drugs is concerned, it's a simple fact that there is no magic wand.
There's no one approach that's going to deal with the problem and therefore
it's very important indeed that we should focus all the activities - whether
it's the activities of the Police and the Customs in seizing drugs, in carrying
forward the fight against those who traffic in drugs, or whether it's the
approaches through Education and through Health, that all of these should be
targetted together and indeed complement the work that's now going on within
prisons to toughen things up and both provide treatment and testing in order to
try to tackle the problem of prisoners before their release who have been
taking drugs.
HUMPHRYS: So is this drugs czar going to have real
powers? Is he going to have the power to tell the various agencies - the
Police and the Customs Officers and the Probation Officers and so on - to tell
them what to do?
MICHAEL: I think he's going to have authority.
HUMPHRYS: What's the difference between authority
and power?
MICHAEL: Well, the fact that each of those
organisations have their own responsibilities; the Police have their
responsibility for tackling both the crimes and the crime prevention approaches
that are within their responsibilities. But what it needs is somebody who has
the authority of Government and of the Prime Minister whose work involves
reporting directly to the- to Ann Taylor as the Law President - therefore is
able to really sharpen up the whole performance of every agency.
HUMPHRYS: They can't sharpen anything up unless
he's got power. I still don't see the difference between authority and power.
No good having authority unless you can exercise it.
MICHAEL: Well, there is actually, because if you
can get all these different agencies working together so that there's a real
dynamic, that doesn't take just telling people, it takes leadership; it takes
co-ordination, it takes drive - and that is what the Government is determined
to put into the fight against drugs.
HUMPHRYS: All right. Well let's look then at the
Police forces for a moment. As you say, they each have their own
responsibilities, their own authority and they all do it differently. They all
treat drugs one way or the other differently. Some will lock up people or
arrest people because they've got a bit of pot in their possession; others
won't, they'll caution them. Now, is there going to be a consistency of
approach between the Police forces and will it be the Czar's job to enforce
that?
MICHAEL: I think it'll be his responsibility to
make sure there's consistency but I would make the point that there are
different drug scenes in different cities. Not so long ago I went to speak to
the Chief Constable and officers in Edinburgh about the way they had dealt with
things a few years ago in a way that appeared effective and they made this very
point: that the drug scene in Edinburgh was different to Glasgow, different to
many cities in other parts of the United Kingdom. So you do need consistency
but you also need to be very sensible about using intelligence and knowledge
about the realities of the problems in any individual place.
HUMPHRYS: So this drug Czar will be able to
enforce that consistency that you talk about, bearing in mind that there are
going to be, of course, local differences which he will be able to take account
of but if he looks at those local differences and says: well, yeah, fine, but
nonetheless we think all the Police forces ought to do this, that, or the
other, that is what will happen, is it?
MICHAEL: You are talking about somebody appointed
who's going to report direct to a Cabinet Member with the authority of Number
10, of the Prime Minister, behind him and the enthusiasm of the Secretaries of
State involved. What he's going to be able to do is to co-ordinate and give
drive that isn't limited by being in this Department or that Department and I
think this is going to bring a fresh sharpness to the activity and demonstrate
the determination of Government to make sure that all of this activity, all the
resource that we put into dealing with the drug problem is actually targeted
and effective.
HUMPHRYS: But, alright, if he can't enthuse people
- and some people aren't easy to enthuse, are they? Or they have their own
ways of wanting to do things. Can he enforce it? It's all very well to talk
about authority and 'sharpening things up', but can he actually - when it comes
to the crunch - enforce it, make it happen?
MICHAEL: Yes, I believe that the enthusiasm
actually is there. I think, I've talked to a lot of Police Officers from
senior down to grass roots level. My colleagues have been talking to people in
the prison service. There's very obviously a will on the part of these
services for which we are responsible in the Home Office to actually tackle the
problems, and I sense that right across Government, both at a national and a
local level.
HUMPHRYS: I don't know. There's been a will for a
very long time, hasn't there? And, we've seen where that has got us!
MICHAEL: I'm not sure there has been a will.
HUMPHRYS: Nobody's wanted to see the drugs problem
get out of hand, come on!
MICHAEL: That's a different thing to having a
will to tackle it. There are an awful lot of problems: youth crime,
unemployment, the drugs problem - many other problems of Government that
everybody's been willing to wring their hands and say there are problems but
you've now got a Government which is willing to tackle those problems and which
is willing to take on the central responsibilty of Government to co-ordinate
action. That's what this appointment is all about.
HUMPHRYS: Well, it's a massive job clearly this by
any standards and what we've got here is a man who is going to be able to
exhort, to enthuse people - to use your own language - but who is, in effect,
gonna be a paper tiger, isn't he? Because the resources that he will have at
his disposal are pretty derisory comparing with the American drugs czar, who's
going to have hundreds of millions - has - hundreds of millions of pounds,
hundreds of staff. This bloke's gonna have a few pound in his pocket and a
handful of staff and he's gonna enthuse people!
MICHAEL: Well, I think, with respect, that may be
the mistake of the American system. If you put all the resources into one
little department.
HUMPHRYS: Oh, they've got a lot of other resources
as well.
MICHAEL: Well, let me make the point. It may look
a lot but it won't. What we're talking about here is somebody who will be able
to co-ordinate and drive forward policy but will be able to count on the
support and the enthusiasm of every Secretary of State, of every Department of
Government, of police forces up and down the country, Health Authorities,
people in schools and Education. There's a vast resource out there. A drugs
czar isn't going to be able to do the thing himself - no - but he is going to
be able to make sure that vast machinery of Government is actually used to
target the real problems.
If we don't do that, we'll continue to
have little things happening here and there; some successful programmes in
place but not that essential strategic co-ordination which is necessary to
tackle the problem which actually is such a central issue when you look at
crime - drug related crime, problems amongst young people and so many other
issues.
HUMPHRYS: And he's going to become immensely
knowledgeable, obviously, if he's doing his job properly. Is he going to be
able to advise Government on what he thinks you ought to be doing - and I'm
thinking obviously of things like an enquiry into decriminalising marijuana
(cannabis), which a lot of people want to have happen - including the Lord
Chief Justice. Now, if he - after a little while - or being his Czarness -
decided this is what ought to happen, will you listen to him?
MICHAEL: He's going to be reporting directly to a
Cabinet Member.
HUMPHRYS: Right, and was he listened to?
MICHAEL: Notice is going to be taken of him by
all of us who are in Government - that's absolutely true. I do think that the
debate about decriminalisation - and you do exaggerate a little what the Lord
Chief Justice said - is actually a diversion from getting on with the
co-ordination and the action that's needed in so many areas of public life.
HUMPHRYS: Will you listen to him? If he says
there ought to be this debate, will you listen to him?
MICHAEL: Of course we will listen to him but I
don't believe that that's the advice that will come forward. I mean, I think
the call for a debate ignores the fact that many of us have been thinking about
these issues, looking at the evidence and considering what has happened over
the years, for a long period of time. And, it's not likely that such unanimity
developed among senior policymakers that talking about decriminalisation is a
way of diverting attention into an academic discussion, instead of taking
action and co-ordinating action and policies to deal with the problems of drugs
and drug-related crime, which is what we must give priority to.
HUMPHRYS: Right. OK, but if you haven't ruled
that out then, at this stage you haven't ruled that out?
MICHAEL: I'm not ruling it in.
HUMPHRYS: Alright.
MICHAEL: I'm saying it's quite clear what our
view is, we don't think that decriminalisation is the approach that would help
at all. It's a diversion from tackling the problems and co-ordinating action -
which is what the czar is going to help us to do.
HUMPHRYS: Right, let's look at another aspect of
your policy now, then, and that is this fast track for juvenile offenders.
You're worried that they don't get to court quickly enough, it takes a very
long time to get them there and you're putting forward this new policy for this
fast track. Now, the problem with the fast track - which everybody seems to
think is a very good idea in principle - is that the courts are either going to
need - and all the other services - are either going to need more resources or
there must be sanctions to make sure that this actually happens. Which road
are you going down? Giving them more resources or sanctions?
MICHAEL: Well, actually, it's not quite as simple
as that. Can I say, firstly, that there will be an announcement later this
week of exactly how we're going to sharpen the speeding up of youth justice but
as far as actual decisions by the Courts are concerned, it takes an average
four and a half months to get a decision by a court. That means that if a
youngster commits an offence now, nothing would happen until next March at the
earliest. And, in the case of the more serious young offenders, it might not
happen until next autumn. Well, that's ridiculous. If your own children do
something wrong, you correct them now - not tomorrow, never mind in several
months' time. Now, there are two ways in which we can speed things up. One is
speeding up things when it's decided that a youngster has to go to court but
even before that we're bringing in a final warning system, which means that
when the final warning is given, it's not only a clear, yellow card for that
youngster that things are gonna happen if they offend again but, also, at that
point there will be intervention by the youth offender teams that we'll be
establishing, on whatever is seen to be his real problems - whether it's
getting in with the wrong lot, problems at home, a failure to attend school.
Whatever the problem, the youth offender teams will be targeting that. That
will happen very quickly after the commission of the offence, not in several
months' time. And we believe that will actually reduce the numbers who need to
go to court in the - not in the long distant future, but in the medium term.
HUMPHRYS: So there will be more resources for the
youth justice system, will there? More money.
MICHAEL: There's not a need for new resources.
HUMPHRYS: What?
MICHAEL: What we've been doing in recent years,
John, is to waste enormous amounts of resources in processing things, in taking
months to get youngsters before the courts.
HUMPHRYS: Yeah, but-
MICHAEL: So that the court process is virtually
irrelevant by the time they get to court.
HUMPHRYS: But they will tell you that the reason
that that's happened is because they are under so much pressure. They can't to
it. They're not going to run a go-slow or something are they?
MICHAEL: No it isn't. It's the fact that all the
bits of the criminal justice system have been working against each other and
one of the stark things that comes out, if you go round the country and talk to
people who are dealing with this at the sharp end, is the way in which
confidence has been undermined in the general public and in Police officers in
what will happen if youngsters are caught. Youngsters think that things will
drift on and they'll get away with it, parents don't think anything very much
is going to happen, the Courts and the Crown Prosecution Service very often are
demoralised and, again, in all of those quarters, the idea that we're going to
take a grip on things and enable people to do things much more quickly, is
evoking an extremely positive response.
HUMPHRYS: So, no more money, no more resources, no
sanctions - we're back to exhortation again, are we?
MICHAEL: No, we're not. We're back to proper use
of resources that are being wasted. I mean, I was involved in this myself,
having worked with young offenders and also chaired the Juvenile Bench in
Cardiff before I entered Parliament, and it was most frustrating because there
was a vast amount of resource and people's time going in to not doing anything
very much. Now, we need to harness those resources into getting messages
across to young offenders: If you offend you're likely to be caught; if you're
caught, something is going to happen. Messages to parents that you need to
take an interest in where your children are and what they're doing and, also,
that you'll be given help and support if things are getting out of hand; and
integrating the approaches of the youth justice system, of schools, of
Education and the general activities of the community.
HUMPHRYS: Alun Michael, thank you very much
indeed.
MICHAEL: Thank you.
HUMPHRYS: I was talking to Mr Michael a bit
earlier this morning.
|