................................................................................
 
                                 ON THE RECORD 
                              MO MOWLAM INTERVIEW          
 
RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1                                 DATE: 23.11.97
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JOHN HUMPHRYS:                         Mo Mowlam, you had said earlier this 
year that there might be agreement by Christmas.  That doesn't look very 
likely now does it? 
 
MO MOWLAM:                             What I actually said earlier this year 
was that Tony Blair the Prime Minister has set May as the date for the 
referendum, where the people of Northern Ireland have a say as to if there is  
an accommodation or an agreement, they have their voice. And what I said was: 
if the participants continue to show the degree of courage that they've already 
shown, there is no reason why with determination and will we couldn't get there 
much earlier. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Quite a few caveats in there.  
 
MOWLAM:                                Yes. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              So given all of those caveats,  
is there going to be an agreement by Christmas?
 
MOWLAM:                                No, of course not.  It's quite self 
evidentally now the case that that's not possible, but all I was saying was 
that anything is possible, movement of some speed is possible if a) there is 
the determination of the parties in the talks, and b) there is sufficient trust 
and confidence between them, which is really the key - external factors as to 
how confident people feel, how much they've grown to trust and respect each 
other that an agreement can be reached.  Now, that's what we - what in a sense 
we're searching for now. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Indeed.  So there isn't going to be an  
agreement.   
 
MOWLAM:                                By Christmas. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              By Christmas, okay.  Is there going to 
be the outline of an agreement do you think? 
 
MOWLAM:                                I can't answer that - can't give you a 
straight answer at all for the simple reason that it's up to the parties in the 
talks, and if the party leaders in the talks get to that point then there will 
be an outline of agreement.  I think there is in the air, I think people begin 
to see, if you take the kind of central tenet of each party's position, you can 
see the five or six things that would have to be in some form of agreement, but 
we're far from there yet, and it's not for me to decide that, but for the 
parties themselves to reach that point, because if they don't own it they don't 
reach agreement, we're not there.
 
HUMPHRYS:                              And they don't own it? 
 
MOWLAM:                                Well, they haven't got there yet. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              So we're a long way away? 
 
MOWLAM:                                Well, I'm not going to say long, short, 
medium.  Those aren't the helpful descriptions of what's happening.  I'm saying 
that we've got a review in December, we've been in talks don't forget John, 
for five weeks. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              What, substantive talks, yes? 
 
MOWLAM:                                Substantive talks, where we've .... 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              The process has been going on for a very 
long time. 
 
MOWLAM:                                Yes, but it was only on September the 
twenty-fourth that actually short of Mr Paisley's party and Mr McCartney's 
party we had all the parties round the table.  So we've been going for 
five weeks, they're in bilaterals, intensive bilaterals now.  Progress is being 
made, frustratingly slow for some, but progress is being made, and we will have 
a review of the situation of both the talks and the decommissioning issue of 
weapons on December the First. 
 
HUMPHRYS                               Right.  Let's pick up the first point.  
They're in bilaterals now you say.   In truth they're not in bilaterals are 
they.  I mean you bent over backwards to get Sinn Fein to the talks, you got 
Sinn Fein into the talks, but the Ulster Unionists will not talk to them.  Now, 
that is what could derail the talks isn't it?
 
MOWLAM:                                Let's be straight that what we did was 
do our best to get Sinn Fein into the talks.  I didn't bend over backwards, and 
we published every word we had in discussion with them in the House of Commons 
library.  What we did was try to get inclusive talks, because it's the only way 
we're going to move.  And we did that.  They have now signed up after the 
ceasefire to Mitchell Six, to which are principles of democracy..  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Those are the six Mitchell principles... 
 
MOWLAM:                                ..and therefore we will treat them like 
any other party.  The Ulster Unionists, yes, David Trimble in leading his party 
and shown a great deal of courage, brought them into the talks, been there five 
weeks and there is a difficulty in direct engagement, absolutely right. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              They won't talk to each other.  They - 
the Ulster Unionists won't talk to Sinn Fein. 
 
MOWLAM:                                They've made that clear that they find 
that difficult.  Now.. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Impossible. 
 
MOWLAM:                                Impossible - difficult, they're talking 
to -  David Trimble met the Irish Prime Minister, the Taoiseach on Friday 
I think it was.  Progress is being made in that sense.  If we don't get direct 
talks at the moment I think we do what we can to build support for the process 
around that.  I think we have to accept that five weeks for many people - you 
can't forget that people have lost family, lost friends - there's a great deal 
of pain and suffering around, and I think you have to understand that in how 
the Unionists and the Ulster Unionist party move into those talks.  Now I want 
direct engagement as soon as possible, because I would like to see progress, 
and I can assure you that we as the British Government will do all we can to 
mvoe it forward as we have been doing up to now.  But just put it in time.  Six 
months ago we had nothing, five weeks ago we started the talks.  We will get 
there with determination, but don't let's start saying: Oh, it's over, oh, it's 
tough, ooh they're not playing ball yet.   Let's give it time to mature. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              But they have to talk in the end - to 
each other. 
 
MOWLAM:                                In the end we have to have an 
accommodation that everybody can live with, and I would assume that means 
talking. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              With Sinn Fein and the Ulster Unionists 
sitting opposite each other at the same table talking directly to each other. 
 
MOWLAM:                                I think it's going to be very difficult 
to reach an accommodation unless we have some kind of communication. 
 
HUMPHYRS:                              And the problem there is that the Ulster 
Unionists say, at the moment - and no reason why they shouldn't continue to say 
this if we're to take them at their word: we're not going to talk to them 
because they have not - Sinn Fein have not given an inch, the IRA haven't given 
an inch on decommissioning, and they're right about that - getting rid of 
weapons, terrorist weapons as they see it, and they're right about that aren't 
they? 
 
MOWLAM:                                Let's just remember.  You said we'd been 
at this for many months.  The previous government was at it for seventeen 
months and didn't get anywhere, and it was decommissioning that held them up, 
nobody doubts that.  The problem was that you had one side that said: you 
decommission beforehand or nothing happens.  The other side... 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              That was the Ulster Unionist position. 
Yes. 
 
MOWLAM:                                .. should have said decommission 
afterwards or nothing happens.  And they were at that deadlock for months. What 
Senator Mitchell who chairs the talks came up with in his Mitchell report, he 
said what we should have is parallel decommissioning, decommissioning alongside 
the talks process, progress in one, progress in the other, the kind of benign 
dynamic that works.  Now we've got the decommissioning body that was set up on 
September the fifteenth.  The first interim report will come before the talks 
on December the first.  I would like to see the weapons handed in yesterday but 
they haven't been.   I can't force anybody to give their weapons up.  I can't 
go up to either side and say: I'd like two pounds of Semtex by Friday please, 
because I've not way of getting it. But what I do have is a mechanism in 
place to make that possible, and I will do my utmost along with the Irish 
government to make sure that mechanism works. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Well, you say you have a mechanism in 
place. They say actually you haven't delivered the goods on that yet, you 
appear to be the British Government, that is appears to be dragging its feet a 
bit because there is supposed to be, you are supposed to have delivered a 
document setting out the legal framework under which the weapons can be handed 
over and for reasons best known to yourselves, they say you haven't delivered 
that. Why not? 
 
MOWLAM:                                Well the document that John De 
Chastelaine, the Canadian that chairs the decommissioning body has gone to all 
the parties, I think it went Friday, to all the parties who are  now looking at 
all the detail and that will be discussed. I would argue there's a roadmap in 
there, I would argue that there is a way forward there. But let's wait and see 
what the parties say on December the 1st, because it's there in my view.   
 
HUMPHRYS:                              The Ulster Unionists have come up with 
this idea of the Council of the British Isles. We heard about it in the film 
there. What do you think of that?    
 
MOWLAM:                                I think it's an interesting idea. I 
think it's one that I look forward to the parties discussing and I believe some 
of them are already doing so. I mean where we are discussing in the bilaterals 
and in the talks process, there's people come with papers and submissions, 
there was a framework document there, some of which people accept, some of 
which they don't.  I mean it is ours and the Irish best-bet in the way forward 
but I'm sure that suggestion by the Ulster Unionist Party will be considered 
positively.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              So you regard it yourselves as movement 
on their side, do you? 
 
MOWLAM:                                I think it is very positive when people 
put their minds to how we progress forward.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              And as far as Dublin is concerned. Do 
you think that Dublin regards that as movement as well? 
 
MOWLAM:                                I haven't talked to Dublin about it 
specifically because I've been out of the talks process for a week, I don't 
know if my deputy did, I can't answer for that. I'm sure Dublin, if its past 
record is anything to go by, if a party brings to the table a positive 
suggestion to move the process forward then they will consider it in a positive 
fashion.   
 
HUMPHRYS:                              The Ulster Unionists are also worried 
that the new Irish government, relatively new Irish government is taking a 
tougher line on changing its constitution, that bit of the constitution that 
says: we actually own Northern Ireland, it is ours by right.  Obviously the 
Ulster Unionists want them to change that.  What's your reading of the Dublin 
Government's position on that.  
 
MOWLAM:                                My reading of the Dublin government and 
of all the parties in the talks, including ourselves, is I think there is 
beginning to be an acknowledgement that everybody's got to change their 
position a bit and I think there's no doubt about that in relation to us, the 
Irish government and many of the parties.  The position we're in, in a sense, 
is who shifts first. In any negotiations it's difficult for any party to be the 
first that moves, and that in a sense is the position we're at.  I think there 
have been indications from the Irish government that that is something they're 
willing to consider but they're not going to in any negotiations.. you're not 
going to throw it away at the start for nought. That's not negotiating.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              That's reasonably encouraging. 
 
MOWLAM:                                I think there is a lot of encouraging 
signs across the board.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Gerry Adams is going to see Tony Blair 
in Number Ten Downing Street, that is official? 
 
MOWLAM:                                Well it's official that they're going to 
see each other.  Tony made it clear that when he talks to all the parties and 
he's in a cycle of talks now, because Sinn Fein had their ceasefire and the 
signing up to the democratic principles, that he will treat Sinn Fein as normal 
as any other political party.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              You have a date for that? 
 
MOWLAM:                                No we didn't have on Friday by the time 
I left work, they were still looking at diaries. But I would assume, 
positively, that it would be before Christmas and it will happen, I guess, at 
Number Ten.  So, the straight answer to your question is, yes, they will meet, 
before Christmas, I guess at Number Ten but I don't have a date yet.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              What is the Prime Minister going to use 
that meeting for? 
 
MOWLAM:                                You'll have to ask him that. I don't 
know.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Well you're his Northern Ireland 
Secretary, I imagine he'll look to you for advice.  
 
MOWLAM:                                If he looked to me for advice, what I 
would say is we want to talk to Sinn Fein about what their options for the 
future, in terms of the talks process are.  That's what we've done with the 
other parties that Mr Blair has meet with it's best to say okay, what are the 
elements of a settlement, an accommodation for you?  I'm sure he would want 
confirmation in terms of Sinn Fein's commitment to the peace process, which I 
don't think is in doubt. But that is what I would recommend.   
 
HUMPHRYS:                              The reason I ask the question in part is 
because people are going to raise their eyebrows when they see the leader of 
Sinn Fein walking through the door of Number Ten and they're going to remember 
that it's not that long ago that the IRA were dropping mortar bombs on Ten 
Downing Street. And they will say, so the Prime Minister is now treating this 
man as just another party leader.  
 
MOWLAM:                                All I would say to you John is the short 
answer is yes.  For the simple reason that if you don't, we've said that we 
believe that the ceasefire is genuine, we believe that they're in the talks in 
serious mode along with the principles of democracy and constitutional way 
forward. Well if they are, we should treat them as if they are.   
 
HUMPHRYS:                              The IRA hasn't given up a single pound 
of semtex as you say.  
 
MOWLAM:                                Yes, but they have indicated in terms of 
the process that they are willing to participate positively.  Now, I'm saying 
to you that if we don't treat them as if they're serious, what are you doing, 
you're making it much much more likely that they will go back to violence. Now, 
there is one thing that I am sure about, is that people in Northern Ireland 
want to see peace work and I believe that along with them they don't want to go 
back, they don't want to go back and that means we have to make talks work.  If 
you're going to make talks work, you need to treat people round the table, as 
if they're human beings, and that's the basis on which I, and I'm sure Tony 
Blair works.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Even though Martin McGuinness, Gerry 
Adams' Chief Lieutenant, says the purpose of being in the talks is to smash the 
Union.  That word 'smash' the Union? 
 
MOWLAM:                                I could give you quotes from all the 
Parties that are negative.  We could sit here and swap negative quotes and you 
can't forget that not only have they got to take the Republican movement with 
them, the Ulster Unionist Party has to take Unionism with them.  That takes-In 
any negotiations, it takes time, it takes looking carefully at the words.  But, 
it also takes-You've got to look over your shoulder and have nobody there and I 
think we've got to just understand that if we're asking Parties in Northern 
Ireland to change - and, we're not asking them to give up their principles on 
any side, or their loyalities, or their culture - what we're saying is: From 
there, step over that and find an accommodation between you.  And, if that's 
what we're asking them to do, we have to look at that in context and that is 
what I argue we are doing with all the Parties.   
 
HUMPHRYS:                              And, if they won't do that you'll- 
 
MOWLAM:                               'Do'?  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Do what you want them to do.  
  
MOWLAM:                                Talk.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              You are ready-Talk?  Yeah.  And, they'll 
ultimately agree because- 
 
MOWLAM:                                Yes... 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              -you do-you do have a deadline after 
all.  Are you ready and willing to impose a settlement? 
 
MOWLAM:                                I say No to that question, for the very 
simple reason that if I said: OK, I'm going to impose a settlement, whichever 
side thinks they're going to benefit from what I'll do will stop negotiating 
now.  And, what I want - if it's going to work - is you have to have everybody 
in the process to some degree owning what comes out.  And, if I impose it, do 
you think it's going to work, without them supporting it?  I don't believe it 
would!   
 
                                       And, that is the whole point of talks, 
it's the whole point of negotiations - to get an accommodation that no one 
Party likes a hundred per cent.  All of us would like something different but 
we might ALL get something of what we want, which is better than where we were 
before and means the people in Northern Ireland have a chance of peace.  That's 
what it's about.   
 
HUMPHRYS:                              So, if by May there is no settlement, 
you just carry on talking? 
 
MOWLAM:                                I'm going to look at the situation when 
we get to May because, again - I'm not avoiding, John because I don't avoid 
questions - if we get to May and we haven't made-there is not an accommodation-
a sufficient consensus of both Parties have accepted, then, we will review the 
situation.  If I say here: well, May we'll go on for another two years, then, 
there won't be the push and the progress that is needed.  We've got to have a 
dynamism in there to get there, otherwise, we will just become stultified.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              But, I think, the Prime Minister had 
said May was it, if there was no settlement?   
 
MOWLAM:                                Well- 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Then, it would be imposed. 
 
MOWLAM:                                Yes, he did.  He said there will be a 
referendum.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              But, now you're saying here- 
 
MOWLAM:                                He didn't say 'imposed'.  He said there 
would be a referendum.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              So, there will be a referendum? 
 
MOWLAM:                                In May - if there's something to have a 
vote about. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                               Ah!  But, if there's nothing to have a 
vote about, no referendum?  You will not say- 
 
MOWLAM:                                No! 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              -here, then-Because we all know why.  
You and I could sit in fifteen minutes write out what the possible questions of 
the referendum will be.                       
 
MOWLAM:                                What I have said is we'll review the 
situation when we get there in May.  If they are very close, then, no one's 
going to object to them doing another month or two.  If they were a long, long 
way away, we're going to have to look at another way forward.  It's no-I don't 
want to prejudge the situation and say: this is going to happen, if not, that 
because that actually cancels out opportunities for the Parties themselves to 
own what comes out at the end.  But, of course, if by May we're not there and 
we're a little way off, we'll continue.  If we're a long way off, we will 
reassess.  That's only common sense.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Mo Mowlam, thank you very much, indeed. 
 
MOWLAM:                                Thank you, John. 
 
 
 
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