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ON THE RECORD
JOHN PRESCOTT INTERVIEW
RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 21.9.97
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JOHN HUMPHRYS: Good Morning Mr Prescott/Good Afternoon.
JOHN PRESCOTT MP: Good Morning John, or Afternoon
whichever way you put it.
HUMPHRYS: Exactly. Before we talk about the
Constitution though, can we talk about money? About these pay rises that the
Cabinet is supposed to be getting - a big row in the papers this morning a lot
of coverage which-
PRESCOTT: I certainly didn't recognise that
meeting from what the papers say but they do like this kind of drama.
HUMPHRYS: Let's just tell the audience what the
meeting was about first before you tell them it didn't happen. It says there
was a big row in the Cabinet because Mr Blair didn't want to take the pay rise,
Mr Brown didn't want to take the pay rise, others said they did - we're talking
about sixteen thousand pounds here. Apparently this had been sorted out but
the Cabinet decided otherwise and now you've been asked at this stage to sort
it out yourself. Is this true?
PRESCOTT: No this was a discussion that took place
in the Cabinet on Thursday and certainly wasn't heated at all. Everybody
recognises the great difficulties in the public pay area and setting examples
and the Prime Minister made it clear exactly how he felt about it. I was asked
to talk to the members of the Cabinet - and that's public news - and I
discussed with them and we looked at the difficulties about implementing these
kind of policies and we needed to look at the long term consequences of this -
and indeed that's what I'm looking at. But we're all united about this, it was
a discussion that took no more than five minutes and frankly there was no heat
whatsoever.
HUMPHRYS: So if you're all united, what is the
position? Are you going to take the pay rises, give it to charity or what?
PRESCOTT: We've made clear that we follow what the
Prime Minister has said - that we will make our contribution not to accept any
rises. But there are a lot-
HUMPHRYS: All of you?
PRESCOTT: Well yes everybody. There's no doubt
about that but there are a lot of implications that flow from that about
Pensions, about the-when the Parliament comes to review again in two years'
time. Is it a discussion on our deemed payment or what we're actually supposed
to be getting. There are complications in these matters and I've been asked to
talk to the colleagues about this and take a long term view about it and that's
what I intend to do.
HUMPHRYS: Because I got the impression this
morning from Jack Cunningham on GMTV that you were going to go around every
Member of the Cabinet and say: look do you want to take a pay rise? Do you
want to give it to charity? Do you want it just to go back to the Exchequer?
Is that the case?
PRESCOTT: No, I think the matter of the charity
argument is that everybody's agreed that this is our money. What we're saying
is we're not taking it. And, in those circumstances, I think, we might have
some say about what should be done with it. These matters were discussed and
Jack's already made clear that was an issue. I'm discussing with Members of
the Cabinet about that; the general thrust of the policy and the agreeement of
all the Cabinet is accepted.
HUMPHRYS: So that has yet to be resolved then?
Whether you take it and then give it to charity or whether you simply don't
take it at all?
PRESCOTT: Well there was an argument about that --
I'm not certain it's an argument, it's a discussion -- indeed I put into this
the argument about the money that's there is actually paid over because
Parliament has agreed that and voted on it and it gets paid to the
Departments. Now there may well be a point of view that perhaps that could go
to some form of charity. It's a judgment we can make, it doesn't effect the
thrust of the policy that has been put forward and endorsed by the Prime
Minister and my job is to talketo them and find that out.
HUMPHRYS: But the Prime Minister's view is that he
wasn't going to take it - he made that very clear?
PRESCOTT: Yes he made it clear but there are
implications that flow from that. Is it this year, next year, years following?
HUMPHRYS: So, what, he hadn't thought it through
when he said that?
PRESCOTT: No, he made it clear in regard to the
next pay round didn't he? The two year programme that we had about public
expenditure, there's some certainly difficult decisions to come. What he made
clear was that he was not prepared to take it and that's now been endorsed for
all the rest of the Cabinet.
HUMPHRYS: So what happens now then?
PRESCOTT: There are matters that flow from that
and I've been asked to actually discuss with Cabinet members and the
instruction of the Prime Minister I might say. But not only myself, it's
involving one or two others and these things have to be thought through.
HUMPHRYS: So what happens to the money next month
then, when you're meant to get your pay rises?
PRESCOTT: We'll be getting the actual - we'd
already agreed that last May - which applies to April next year, that we
don't-we didn't take the increase and that's already been deducted. What
you're talking about is a period of payment that starts from April next year,
there's two lots involved here. The first decision was taken last May until
April of next year and what the Prime Minister was talking about was the
decision that was going to be taken next April, effecting the second year.
HUMPHRYS: Alright, let's move on to the vote in Wales
now - a miniscule wafer-thin majority, and only a quarter of the people of
Wales actually said: yes, we want this Assembly. Doesn't that mean you've now
got to rethink your plans?
PRESCOTT: Well, no, but what it does mean is that
the majority actually voted for Labour's proposals. We actually made these
proposals on May the first and we said we'd give the people of Wales the
choice. They've made a choice - we've got more than fifty per cent of the vote
and we will implement our programme. Now, this was a debate, a referendum as
to whether we should go ahead with decentralisation in Wales and a Welsh
Assembly. We will now put the legislation to Parliament and it will be
examined, obviously, by all those concerned in Parliament.
HUMPHRYS: A majority. But the slenderest possible
majority and a very small number of people voting. You used to talk about the
clear and settled will of the people having to be established before you
settled down the devolution road - well you haven't got that, have you?
PRESCOTT: The clear and settled will is about a
majority and that's what it is.
HUMPHRYS: A quarter of the people of Wales.
PRESCOTT: But wait a minute - yes, a majority has
actually voted in that vote when everybody could have voted. Now, if you look
at the General Election, we've had Governments with thirty odd per cent of the
vote making major changes to our Constitution. The Tories in eighteen years
completely centralised most of our Government programme and the role of Local
Authorities was very much weakened in that process. So, to that extent, they
came out with something less than forty per cent of the vote. So, I'm quite
happy to accept a majority. If it would have been half a per cent less, John,
we would have lost it.
HUMPHRYS: But I mean you used to attack the
Government for exactly the kind of thing that you're now proposing to do. You
used to say look you don't have a mandate to do these things!
PRESCOTT: Now we have fifty per cent. Nobody's
ever taken the totality of the vote - it's the people that vote for it. It's
over fifty per cent - that's what's governed our politics. If you want to
change it - fine. I hear you discussing all this business about Proportional
Representation etc., - that's a matter for debate in the future - but, at the
moment, it's a clear majority is required. That's what the terms were at this
Election and that is what we've got. We've got it in Scotland, more
emphatically than we did in Wales but we got fifty per cent in Wales. So, we
have now agreed as the central aim of our policy to continue to decentralise
with a Scottish Parliament, a Welsh Assembly and indeed the London Bill that is
going to be coming for the London Region.
HUMPHRYS: So, no second thoughts at all. You're
going to push the Wales Bill through this Autumn as quickly as possible.
PRESCOTT: How can we do anything else? If we've
put the issue to the Electorate and fifty per cent of it - over fifty per cent
of it - has said: we want you go go ahead with this Bill - of course, that's
the democratic obligation. We will now go ahead with our Bill but of course a
White Bill is going to be thoroughly discussed in Parliament - this Bill. And,
I'm sure, there are implications that are designed on the White Paper that we
are producing to that extent we have every right to go ahead and we will do.
HUMPHRYS: But, I thought I had heard Ron Davies in
Wales and Mr Blair himself saying: we're going to listen to what people have
said here.
PRESCOTT: Well, we've listened and-
HUMPHRYS: Well, not a lot of listening. You've
listened and then, you've said: that's it.
PRESCOTT: But, John, if you're not satisfied with
the majority - fine. You're entitled to have that view. We have listened to
what the people of Wales said and I'm right to correctly interpret that the
majority have, actually, voted for our proposals. We're delighted about that.
And, as you know - because you take an active interest in Wales - and, indeed,
I do - we're both Wales/Welsh. From different parts of Wales. I'm from the
North and I believe you're from the South and in those arguments that have
taken place over the years, the last referendum there was something like four
to one against. Now, that's one heck of a turnaround to get a fifty per cent
majority and the arguments and discussions will continue but instead of about
whether we shall have it, or not have it, it will be about what we do with the
Welsh Assembly and how we begin to redistribute the power in the way that's
suggested under these proposals.
HUMPHRYS: Right. But, as far as the Bill is
concerned, you're going to push it through. We're going to see the same kind
of thing we saw with the Referendum Bills. You're going to have a guillotine
discussion or are you going to say: we are mildly concerned - at the very least
- about the smallness of the majority, therefore, we will allow full discussion
on the floor of the House of Commons, even if it takes a goodly time.
PRESCOTT: Well, that's for the Business Managers
to sort out - right.
HUMPHRYS: Well, what's your view?
PRESCOTT: Well, wait a minute. We will be going
through with the proposal. We, actually, put it to the Electorate on May the
first - an overwhelming endorsement from it, including the English regions as
well. We now then do a separate referendum, as we've done in Scotland, done in
Wales and are about to do it in London and we will go ahead with our
proposals. As to how it's dealt with in Parliament that's up to the Business
Managers. But, I think, we've got an overwhelming mandate - both in a General
Election and, indeed, now, in the Referendum - so, we are entitled to put our
vote to Parliament.
HUMPHRYS: So, what did Mr Blair mean, though, when
he talked about listening to the people of Wales because, as you say, great
chunks of people didn't vote for it at all?
PRESCOTT: Are you suggesting, then, that if he
gets-
HUMPHRYS: I'm asking you what he meant when he
said 'listening' - that's all.
PRESCOTT: I'm just trying to get at what you're
suggesting, since you keep asking the question a number of times. Are you
suggesting then that we should now reject the possibility of putting a
referendum because we've got over fifty per cent of the vote, though it was
narrowly just over fifty per cent. That isn't the suggestion, and I think
people would be outraged if we'd put it to the people and we'd said, "We give
you the voice, we trust in the voice of Wales". And the majority have voted
for a Welsh Assembly, and we are right and quite proper to go ahead and put
that forward now to parliament.
HUMPHRYS: No, no, well, since you ask me I am
intrigued by what Mr Blair meant when he said, "We've got to listen to the
people of Wales", as a result of what they did, because as you know, you say
you come from - you say you come from Prestatyn don't you, I come from Cardiff.
Nobody in Cardiff - they threw it out - threw it out completely. Well now,
this is the capital city. Some people in Cardiff may well say: Look, alright
you've got your majority but by golly it was - if one mining village had gone
the other way you wouldn't have got it. Now, Okay, you've got it, we accept
that you've got it, but, but as a result of that Mr Blair said, and certainly
Ron Davies said, "We will now listen, and we'll think out this a little bit, so
all I was asking you was whether ...
PRESCOTT: ... that quite properly there. In fact
the listening process will go on both in Scotland and Wales in that we've had
the referendum, but when we come to the details of the discussion we've set up
our framework, and the bill will reflect that and the White Papers that are
involved here, and then when we do that we will of course enter into that
debate, I'm sure that we will take into account in that sense, we will be
persuaded by the kind of votes that are involved, but it won't put us off about
putting the legislation before parliament, but in the process of that debate we
will of course listen to the arguments that go on, because the argument now is
not about whether you do it or don't do it, the argument is now about whether
you're satisfied or whether your fears that you expressed in that referenda
could be satisfied in a different way. In that sense I'm sure Ron Davies will
be conducting that discussion and view, and I think he would have been doing
that if the vote had been fifty or sixty per cent. It's listening to the
people during the process of legislation.
HUMPHRYS: Right, but when you say you will let the
business managers decide how it goes through the House of Commons, presumably
they decided last time under some instructions from the leaders of the Party
that there should be a guillotine. Well, now this time around, bearing in mind
that you're in this listening mode that you describe, aren't you going to say
to the business managers: Look, there is some concern about this, so let's make
sure we don't upset anybody, let's make sure we recognise the concerns by
having the fullest possible debate on the floor of the House of Commons without
any guillotine...
PRESCOTT: There will be no doubt that we will be
having the fullest possible debate..
HUMPHRYS: Without the guillotine,
PRESCOTT: .. but you know in our process, if you
go back to the last time that we had legislation before the House of Commons
half a dozen people can decide that what they're going to do, it doesn't matter
what the people of Wales have said, they can actually obstruct a bill. But we
will want the full parliamentary discussion. If I remember rightly it was the
Tory government that brought even guillotines in in the Euro-bill which was
much more fundamental than this, but we don't want to get into that, and that's
why Tony Blair uniquely in a way has involved himself in the discussions with
other political parties that are agreed on this particularly the Liberals to
see if we can get common agreement. He does want consensus, he does want
common agreement, and he wants proper discussion, and that's what we'll be
aiming for.
HUMPHRYS: So let's move beyond these referendums
then, because they were part of a much wider plan which included elected
regional government in England as well. Hasn't that rather been blown out of
the water by what happened in Wales ?
PRESCOTT: No, not at all. The whole process of
decentralisation is to bring decision nearer to people and if I live in
Yorkshire as I do at the moment to represent a Yorkshire seat, I've got a
population in Yorkshire or something like five million, that's bigger than
Wales, but about the same region say of, a little less than Scotland, and they
want to have some say about those decisions, and we've committed ourselves to
decentralisation, manifests itself in a parliament in Scotland, an assembly in
Wales, and some form of regional government structure that the people want in
the English regions. Now I think that's what they want, and if you look at
the - and we will consult them about that, and if you look at the London Bill
that we have in the legislation at the moment, that Londoners do not have a
regional voice, they do want to have one in our view, and I think one of the
polls conducted by the BBC showed that eighty-three per cent of the Londoners
wanted that, and something like eighty-odd per cent wanted a directly elected
mayor. Now in those circumstances we have the bill and the referendum bill
ready to come before parliament. We'll conduct that referendum on May the
seventh at the same time as the local elections, and we'll get the first
indication about whether Londoners want a London voice, and I believe Mr Hague
actually supports that. I've always found it difficult to understand why he
denied it for the Welsh and the Scots but always thought it was alright for the
Londoners.
HUMPHRYS: Are you therefore committed - and the
word is committed - to elected regional government in England?
PRESCOTT: We consult the people about that. I've
always had a view John. You know me, I've always been for a regional
government. I've argued that for ten or fifteen years, but we have said that
we would consult the people in the regions. Now in London we're going ahead
immediately to give them a referendum on May the seventh, then we'll have a
White Paper and a bill, and we hope to have this authority established by the
year two-thousand. Now, in those circumstances on the English regions because
of the time-table involved in it, we've started with the English development
agencies. Each region will have that, I've managed to get that into the
Queen's speeches.
HUMPHRYS: They're not elected though, let's be
clear about that, they're not elected.
PRESCOTT: I'm coming to that John, it's a fair
point. It's a body that's set up, therefore we want to make it accountable in
the regions. If you want to move to kind of some form of regional government
in the English regions it would have to based on local government. We have a
unitary base system, we don't have a regional structure. That would
take you a couple of years to go through the consultation of local authority
changes if that's what we're embarked upon. Now, it's not possible to get that
kind of elected procedures done this side in the first length of this
parliament.
HUMPHRYS: Ah, not at all? Not well.
PRESCOTT: I mean, we see how the time-table will
go. You're already asking me what will be the time-table in discussions and
guillotines in the early stages. We would wait to see what develops, but we've
gone ahead with the development agencies, because that's only catching up with
Scotland and Wales who've had them for over twenty odd years, and we want to
develop the economy, the English regions certainly want the development
agencies. Our consultation done under Dick Caburn has shown that overwhelming
demand by business and the regions for the development agencies, and what we've
got to do is to build in that some kind of democratic accountability to begin
with, and we're trying to do that in an indirect way with many of the bodies
that are available, bringing them together with local authorities and
businesses to have some kind of accountability.
HUMPHRYS: Well, that's an interesting answer
because one of your policy documents in September talked about "as rapidly as
pososible".
PRESCOTT: Well, that's - there's no doubt where I
stand, but don't forget about it. We said we would consult the people. That
requires us then to go into a mode first of all to get an indication that they
want the referendum, then the possibility of the referendum, and then if that
was to lead to a change in our structure, the regional chambers or the
possibility of regional government, that takes a little longer, but the
chambers which are something different in that sense, giving some legitimacy to
the various groups that have come together like the North-west partnership in
the North-west or the Northern Assembly in the North-east where these bodies
hae come voluntarily together to give them some proper accountability in the
interim period. It may well be that's all what the English regions want. I
hope myself it will move towards some kind of regional government concept, but
you have to consult the people, and that's the procedures we're set upon.
HUMPHRYS: And many of your colleagues appear to
bet getting a little bit scratchy, a little bit edgy about that because they
consulted the people in Wales - we saw what happened there, and that is after
all a nation. Consulting the people of England, even somewhere lkike Yorkshire
might be a bit of a dodgy business now - we saw did we not a little bit of back
tracking a few days ago, the day after the Welsh .... Well government
spokesmen being quoted in the papers as saying, "People think we are
committed. That is not correct".
PRESCOTT: Well I can't deal with government
spokesmen, if you tell me who it is...
HUMPHRYS: Who can then if you can't.
PRESCOTT: Well, you're talking about..you just
throw in a name, I don't know, journalists write up all these sorts of things
up about what some government spokesman said or senior source. I can't handle
that but I am the one responsible for the policy and therefore I'm entitled to
give what my interpretation is of it and I've given you what it is. And indeed
that will be the process we're embarked upon to carry out and I think when we
have the London Referendum which is on May 7th, I think we'll get a
considerable support for it and I think that will answer those you are doubting
Thomases. But it may change between the north east the north west or Cornwall
but we will start the process of consultation, we will establish the economic
development agencies in the regions which they won and that was one of the
first steps towards the kind of steps that have been taken in Scotland and
Wales. They started with economic development agencies and then you begin to
see a regional dimension. Europe has authorities of a regional dimension of
approximately five million population. We haven't got that, we're the only
country in Europe that doesn't have that and I think when people begin to see
this developing this way they'll become more convinced of it, see its relevance
and hopefully support it.
HUMPHRYS: So the message from the Deputy Prime
Minister to everybody, including government spokesmen, is if they want it,
regional government, elected regional government - which I John Prescott most
certainly do - then they can have it sooner rather than later, ideally before
the end of this parliament.
HUMPHRYS: Well I don't think you can get that
before the end of this parliament, regional government, what we embarked to do
is to have regional chambers and we have spelt them out in our manifesto what
that means. To make the first step towards some accountability on the regional
level. But in London we're going much further, we are establishing a regional
body concept of a population of five or six million for London. Now this debate
has started John. I don't know where it will eventually lead but I'm quite sure
about this: we want to make decisions, put decisions nearer to people who are
affected by them, it's called de-centralisation and our programme for Scotland
and Wales has now been confirmed in the referendums. I believe it will
eventually be confirmed in the English regions. But nobody can doubt a
momentum has started, democratic accountability is what people are demanding,
not the quangoracy that the Tories brought in which control more resources now
than elected members. I think that's what the people will want and we will
argue that case and it's my intention to continue to argue as hard as possible.
HUMPHRYS: Deputy Prime Minister, many thanks.
PRESCOTT: Thank you.
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