Interview with John Prescott




 
 
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                                 ON THE RECORD 
 
 
RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1                                 DATE:  29.9.96
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HUMPHRYS:                              John Prescott, you see from that film 
that clearly there are people in the party who were worried because on so many 
issues you are becoming, they feel, indistinguishable from the Tories.  They're 
right to be worried aren't they? 
 
JOHN PRESCOTT:                         Well, they're worried about the pace of 
change, and I think every one of us will say, how many elections we've lost?  
Four elections.  What we've got to do is to be reaching out to an awful lot 
more people than we've done before.  That's what the argument of New Labour is 
about, reaching to people who felt Labour was no longer associated with them.  
And it's also in a process of change against an economy which this government 
will leave us in a real mess on public finances, and Grodon Brown has to look 
to the reality of that and temper our promises with the reality of the 
resources that are there.   Years ago we called that the language of 
priorities.  That's what Bevin called it and that's precisely the priorities 
we're trying to deal with in the nineteen-nineties, that is causing some 
concern, but I must tell you I go round all the country John, quite a lot, 
talking to a lot of people.  Some express these concerns, some express and are 
happy that Labour now look to be ready and on the threshold of winning.   It's 
about securing power to deal with the problems that we've heard on the 
television in your film this morning. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              But it's more than just the pace of 
change isn't it?  We heard Barbara Castle saying we're becoming 
indistinguishable, there is this danger - indistinguishable from the Tories. 
 
PRESCOTT:                              Well, I don't think that's true at all.  
Of course even the Tories certainly don't believe that.  They used to say 
twelve months ago Labour had no polices.  Now they're attacking us heavily on 
all fronts, whether it's in regard to relationships with Trade Unions, 
minimum wage, social wage, whether it's our proposals on education, on Europe - 
all these areas the Tories are clearly showing very distinctive differences 
between us.   Now, of course those policies have changed.  They have reflected 
the traditional values which many of the people are concerned about there, and 
placed them in the modern setting with the stringency of understanding, the 
public expenditures are not promising too much.   We will only promise what we 
can deliver and that's what the programme is really about.  I'd like to be 
able to promise an awful lot more.  I'd like to be able to have not the 
arguments of the conferences at the present time, but basically we have to work 
in that reality. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Well it's a reality that is causing 
great concern isn't it?  David Hinchcliffe, former member of your front bench 
team, who said there: it is reaching a stage where some traditional core voters 
- these aren't people who are Johnny-come-latelys are increasingly asking what 
is the point of voting Labour at the next election.  Aren't you a bit worried 
when you hear that sort of thing? 
 
PRESCOTT:                              Yes, I am worried that we don't get the 
case across properly ... 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              And this is one of your own MPs after 
all. 
 
PRESCOTT:                              David, I know very well - I've a 
great deal of respect for David and of course that's what the whole programme 
now - which Tony Blair's brought forward, the Road to Manifesto, the New 
Labour, New Britain, New Life for Britain, is about trying to deal with a 
programme that we can put over in months instead of weeks. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Oh, but Mr Hinchcliffe must know 
what you're talking about surely.  He must understand your programme. 
 
PRESCOTT:                              But John please, I mean I won't want to 
waste the time and I'll try and answer your questions directly on this.  What 
I wanted to say - it's like our pledge card that we have - you know this 
business of saying "Here we're going to say that we'll reduce the size 
classes".  Now what are we saying there?    We're actually saying and we don't 
explain it enough, not only that we're reducing class sizes because we believe 
that there is a connection between the quality of education and the size of the 
class, but we're also saying that where priority is, we'll take the resources 
from the Assisted Places Scheme and pay for it that way.  Now that's 
re-emphasised by education principle, of our comprehensive education principle, 
of public education principle, and the great difficulty in the Labour Party is 
we only argue about the difficulties and we don't talk about what we've agreed, 
and what we've got to do is reassure our people that those traditional 
principles are still relevant in Education, in the Health Service, in providing 
jobs for a quarter of a million people.  That's what a Labour government did 
fifty years ago, a great reforming Labour government, and we have to reflect 
that in the new Blair government. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              But David Hinchcliffe is worried about 
precisely those things that you have agreed, and he thinks you've got it 
wrong, because you're going to drive away your core voters because it is too 
like what the Tories are preaching and have done for so long.                
 
PRESCOTT:                               Yes.  Well, I mean, it doesn't fit in 
with facts.  I mean the quarter of a million jobs we're talking about, the 
Tories say leave it to the market.  They're doing nothing about it.  We want a 
Health Service that meets the needs of the people and not the needs of the 
market, so we employ more nurses rather than accountants.  That reiterates 
basic principle of Labour that brought in a Health Service which is a basic 
Socialist Health Service, was based upon your need and not your ability to pay 
or insurance policies.   Now we must get on to people that we're not living in 
the past, we're looking to the future, and we're reiterating those traditions 
and placing them in a modern setting. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Ah well now, it depends what you mean by 
placing them in a modern setting?   
 
PRESCOTT:                               Well, the Nineteen-nineties. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Well, okay, but I mean it's one of those 
phrases that can mean anything you like, or it can mean nothing at all.  Let's 
look then at the defining issues, the really defining issues.  Redistribution 
of wealth.  Now, there are clear signs are there not, that the Party which once 
spoke for the redistribution of wealth - and by that I mean the very obvious 
thing, from the rich to the poor, or the richest to the poorest if you prefer - 
is no longer interested in that, and that's a defining issue? 
 
PRESCOTT:                              Well, it's a defining issue in the sense 
that the people, the poorer part of this community, those less able to pay are 
paying a greater burden of their income in Taxation whether it's direct or 
indirect.  Right at the top end of the scale there are millionaires, as Gordon 
reminds us, that are not paying any tax, because they've got very fancy 
accountants to actually avoid it.  Now what he's announced is the fair 
principles of Taxation - that's different from the Tories.  We believe there 
has to be an element of social justice in Taxation.  You can call it 
redistribution whatever, it's called a progressive Tax system.  Those fair 
principles that have been laid out by Gordon are the ones that reflect fair 
burden by all concerned, and being carried by all concerned.  Now, in those 
circumstances what we've got to do of course, is that when we inherit the 
Government with the trust of the people, if we win the next Election, we will 
want to look at the books and say what the Taxation policy will be.  Now that's 
quite normal.  Gordon clearly states that time and time again, and no other 
Party's been any different in that respect. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Well, I don't know.   Everything I hear 
tells me people like Gordon Brown, and Tony Blair himself said it again 
yesterday, on the Daily Express yesterday, nobody's going to pay any more Tax! 
 
PRESCOTT:                              Well, I don't think - I know it's a 
cliche to say, don't believe everything you read in the press, but I think- 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Well, perhaps you don't believe 
everything your leader says?  I mean it's a direct quotation. 
 
PRESCOTT:                              Well, I didn't say that at all.  I 
mean if I was to read the Sunday Times this morning, front page about Robin 
Cook, and say exactly that Robin Cook's supposed to have attacked Tony Blair  -
absolutely untrue, and now the transcript has been given has shown that it's 
untrue.  You know, one of the great problems, and I see you've written about it 
in one of the papers today - about whether you can get pressures from all sorts 
of people about what's said on these programmes.  I've given you no pressure, 
it's not my style, as you well know, John.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Absolutely not, absolutely not. 
 
PRESCOTT:                              But the real difficulty is that when you 
want to have a decent debate in this country, and when change is about that, 
you take one line from a particular speech and then exploit that particular 
line and make the ...... 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              No, well- 
 
PRESCOTT:                              Well, Nick Jones did it with me in a 
speech this week.  Yesterday on your BBC they were showing lines that I say
they'll run into the buffer.  If you've read the eight thousand words, it 
wasn't an attack on Tony Blair, but one of the real- 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              He didn't say it was, in fact he didn't 
say it was. 
 
PRESCOTT:                              I know, but what he did - he left 
everybody the impression Prescott warns Blair.  That wasn't the case at all, 
and the real point I want to make about change, and this is one of the 
uncertainties and difficulties we have, is that when you try to present an 
argument in this country much of the media - I exempt you from it - will take 
one line from it and exploit it.  We have a hostile media as far as the Labour 
Party is concerned, and I think that makes for great difficulties about having a
proper debate about the pace of change- 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Alright.                                
 
PRESCOTT:                              - and assuring those people on the 
programme that Labour hasn't fundamentally changed in the sense of its 
traditional values, but yes it has changed in the sense that nearly everybody 
in the Labour Party is in a new Labour Party looking to the future- 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Right.  
 
PRESCOTT:                              - not living in the past, but looking to 
the future and shaping the future.   John, I'll tell you this, Labour has 
always been more successful when it looks as if it's acting for all the 
country.  In 1945 we rebuilt the industrial base, with the welfare and a social 
justice.  Harold Wilson in 1964 captured the imagination of technology and 
social justice.  The tragedy for us is that since then people have left Labour, 
we've never been able to reach out to others - we've cut ourselves off from 
them, and what Tony Blair's trying to say here, I can tell you it'll be part of 
his speech, how do you unlock that real potential of our people in this country 
so that Britain could do more? 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Okay, I accept all that.  Right.  
 
PRESCOTT:                              But, Tony Blair believes that Britain is 
not doing anything like as well as it could do, should do, and he wants to make 
a change. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              If you want to tell me that we've all 
got it wrong over these past months when we heard Tony Blair talking about tax, 
we've all got it wrong, and he does regard the tax system as a redistributive 
mechanism which means that some people will be paying more, so that others can 
get a little more, at the bottom end of it - that's fine - but he hasn't said 
that.  That's the point, he hasn't said that, that's why your supporters are so 
concerned about it.  
 
PRESCOTT:                              Well I think that's a very good example. 
If the argument is simply on that narrow level.. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Part of it, we've got other bits to 
broadcast, but that's part of it, an important part. 
 
PRESCOTT:                              I want to direct myself to that specific 
point. It's an important one.  What Tony Blair is saying is that we haven't 
grown in the way that we could have grown, we're not using the potential of our 
people as much.. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              That's not what I'm talking about.. 
 
PRESCOTT:                              If you just listen a second, you will 
listen to what I'm trying to say is that the tax base can be increased.  We 
waste so much money keeping people on the dole and in welfare of twenty billion 
pounds, perhaps we could use some of this wasted money to get people back 
to work, like the quarter of a million that we promise in our card.  They'll be 
paying tax, the tax base will have increased, we'll have more resources coming 
into the community, the fair taxation principle will apply.  Now that's not a 
contradiction, it's a confirmation of the role of tax in a progressive system. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              But it is a contradiction of 
redistribution. You heard those people from Gloucester and I'm not talking now
about the politicians, I'm talking about ordinary Labour supporters who've made 
it clear that they regard the party as a party of redistribution.  They're not 
saying we're quite happy to wait until the cake has got that much bigger, so 
perhaps then we'll have a slightly bigger slice of it because it's a bigger 
cake, naturally. They are talking about taking a bit more from people who are 
rich and giving a bit of it to them who are poor. That's what I'm talking 
about. 
 
PRESCOTT:                              A fair taxation system is about being 
fair, right.  That people carry a fair burden of taxation.  Gordon Brown has 
laid out the principles of that but what we're trying to get people to put 
their attention to is that the massive kind of waste that goes on at the money. 
Money is redistributed now in a way, wasted into quangoes, wasted into a 
bureaucracy.. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              You're not dealing with the issue here. 
 
PRESCOTT:                              You're dealing with a different priority 
in the orders of expenditure by Government and if you change those priorities 
you can make a fundamental difference to the existence of people in work, for 
their health service, for their education and that is about a better standard 
of life of which taxation may be a small part but that the proportions of 
expenditure by Government in different priorities can alter the very quality of 
the life of our people and release its full potential. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              So there is no need then to take any 
more money from the sort of people whom those voters regarded as rich? 
 
PRESCOTT:                              You're talking about the possible.. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              That's not what I'm talking about.  
 
PRESCOTT:                              I'm sorry, I must say you are talking to 
me about how the taxation system will apply and the principles that will apply 
to it.  That's precisely what you're talking about.. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              We're talking about redistribution which 
you concede is an absolutely seminal matter.   
 
PRESCOTT:                              I mean the whole argument of Gordon for 
example, of the 10p is in fact to slacken the burden of the lower end of that. 
But most people are trapped into situations at the present time where they are 
paying a greater share of that burden and we have made clear it needs to be a 
fairer share. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              But look the poorest do not pay income 
tax at all as you very well know, that's what we're talking about. 
 
PRESCOTT:                              But many of them get trapped into 
welfare situations where the effect is that their benefit is denied. They do 
lose their benefit and it's a kind of academic argument whether you call it tax 
and you know as well as I do that that proverty trap means a very real 
difference to those people. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              And those people are saying - because 
we're in that proverty trap and because we see very rich people, apparently, 
correct me if I'm wrong, apparently not going to pay any more under a Labour 
Government.  What on earth do they mean.... 
 
PRESCOTT:                              Some of them not paying any.   
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Well alright, but that's because of 
weaknesses in the system which you tell me you'll close, okay, but you know I'm 
not talking that.  I'm talking about the principle of redistribution. 
 
PRESCOTT:                              But don't forget a lot of that came from 
the ....tax rates where most people found it very advantageous to employ the 
accountants to do it.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              That is another matter.  
 
PRESCOTT:                              No, no, no. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              That is another matter.  
 
PRESCOTT:                              It's an issue to take into account about 
the levels of taxation.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              It's taken into account.  But what I'm 
talking about is the hundred thousand pounds a year people. Let's take those. 
The hundred thousand pounds a year people who most people regard as rich. I 
mean do you regard them as rich? 
 
PRESCOTT:                              Well they're certainly richer than me, 
you can certainly put that. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              That's not what I asked you.  
 
PRESCOTT:                              That's not about what is rich.  I mean 
this is typical in British politics.  What is rich is what is poor. You can 
have all sorts of arguments about that. I see Mr Lilley telling us if you've 
got a tape recorder in your front room you're not poor, that goes on it's a 
relative argument.  What you're asking me is what is a proper, fair, taxation 
rate for a Labour Government, right, in the future, with the Labour Government. 
And I tell you that the principles are laid down by Gordon. We haven't expelled 
exactly what those rates are, what levels they will apply, even though there's
speculation about the hundred thousand you're talking about there's not a 
statement that has been made by the Labour Party at all, it's just speculation. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Well can I clear it.. 
 
PRESCOTT:                              We saw it in the last Election, 
particularly with John Smith and we saw just exactly, an honest statement on 
taxation at that time led to a massive attack of a double whammy from a 
government that in fact then went on to impose the biggest tax burden and then 
lie about it.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Exactly and that's why you're backing 
away from it now isn't because you're afraid of the middle classes.  
 
PRESCOTT:                              No, it's not that at all because at the 
end of the day we'll have to make a judgement.  We are proposing a programme to 
win for two elections. You know the programme, we are not planning that 
programme just to say, to win the next election.  If you really want to make 
fundamental changes for the real damage that has been done to the economy and 
the very society in Britain by the Tories you have to win two Elections. That 
means we have to be careful about what we promise and we will be judged on it 
at the period of the second Election.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Alright, let's just... 
 
PRESCOTT:                              We do want two terms, I'll let you into 
a secret and indeed Tony Blair... 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Shock horror.  
 
PRESCOTT:                              Tony Blair's speech is very much about 
how do you unlock the potential of our people.  Wealth creation, the Labour 
Party is as increased in wealth creation as it is about wealth distribution.  
It's about fairness, it's about justice, it's about business, it's about 
partnership and that's the excitement of the big idea, the potential of our 
own people. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Alright, let's clear up one little thing 
then, since you say you have talked about, the hundred thousand pounds a year 
people, we are told that the last Labour cabinet, Gordon Brown said fifty pence 
tax rate for hundred thousand pounds a year plus.  Is that right, is that what 
he suggested? 
 
PRESCOTT:                              I wasn't there.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Somebody...kept you in touch. 
 
PRESCOTT:                              I was dealing with security matters at 
this conference which caused more controversy... 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              I dare say they would have told you if 
that were the case.  
 
PRESCOTT:                              But it is not a proposal, let me tell 
you.  Gordon has said it,.....
 
HUMPHRYS:                              I note that you're not denying that he 
suggested it. 
 
PRESCOTT:                              Others have said it, it's just not true. 
Now this is a good example.  I say no it's not a proposal of the Labour Party, 
you should then say 'thank you very much Mr Prescott I'm glad that matter is 
settled up" and you go to somewhere else.  But no you just want to keep on 
something that is not a proposal.  I mean it's a fair point about it...  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              I asked you a specific question which 
you didn't address.  I said was that a suggestion from Gordon Brown at the 
Shadow Cabinet? 
 
PRESCOTT:                              I wasn't there when he did it. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              But you'd know wouldn't you?   
 
PRESCOTT:                              And it's not a proposal, I can tell you 
it's not a proposal of the Labour Party.  We will make - and I heard Gordon 
Brown on the Frost Programme this morning making exactly the same point again. 
We will make our statement about taxation at the appropriate time and we have 
given the principles that will apply.  Now, I keep on saying that.  That is the 
position, it's written down in our documentation.  Now can we just agree at the 
moment you can accept that.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Okay, so the folks in Gloucester who are 
worried can rest assured as a result of this, if they're earning a hundred 
thousand plus they needn't worry.  
 
PRESCOTT:                              Well I suspect. You know our document - 
this is one of the real problems for the Labour Party - we have got ourselves 
painted into positions sometimes that we've not argued our case. We've been far 
too defensive about it. We have produced a document.  I don't know whether the 
colleagues in Gloucester have read it, about those fair principles laid down, 
it's all probably a good bet that they haven't, that is why we're launching our 
programme which is going to the vote after this conference, once it's voted 
upon here, to actually, for people to understand precisely what Labour is 
offering, the proper balance of social justice, the proper priorities within 
public expenditure that Labour will have available to it, but reflecting the 
traditional values in a modern setting. That's where these concepts of a Labour 
Party in its newness presents itself to the electorate.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Alright, let's broaden it out a bit 
and look at the other aspect of redistribution, one obviously is taking money 
from people, the other is giving money to people and the people who are so 
worried at the moment are the pensioners. You had a policy, once upon a time, 
which was to link pensions with earnings, you scrapped that policy, you've 
dumped it, they believe they have been let down.  Aren't they right to believe 
that?                                   
 
PRESCOTT:                              Well let's just go back to the history 
again. It was Labour and Barbara Castle was very much to the fore.  We believe 
in the basic pension, the SERPS, earnings related brought in by Barbara Castle 
- it was a Labour Government that made the connection either to prices or 
earnings, it was the Tories who began to dismantle this public pensions system. 
And yes we promised that the break with the earnings at the last election that 
we would make that connection. That's what some of the controversy is about at 
the moment because we haven't given a commitment in our policies to do that. 
Again, we have to face the reality of resources here, about what money is 
available. You heard the billions of pounds that float across these arguments 
but the executive today has just come to an agreement with the pensioner 
groups, particularly very much reflected in the Pensions Convention and Jack 
Jones, that they will now, we reaffirm our belief in the pensions, we reaffirm 
our commitment to maintain the pensions at the prices which is the present.  It 
isn't - John, I'm giving what that position is - the earnings statement by 
pensioners will be reviewed with the Government, a Labour Government.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              No commitment.  
 
PRESCOTT:                              Well I'm telling you what we've  agreed 
to put to the conference.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Barbara Castle's not happy with it, for 
a start.  
 
PRESCOTT:                              Well, Barbara might not be and Barbara 
has, you know, a tremendous history in this area.  The argument will take place 
on the floor against all these priorities that we put to the Electorate.  We 
are within months of the Election and we have to balance what we'll promise 
against what we'll be able to find from those public finances.  And also at the 
same time, not open ourselves up to the dishonest and lying attacks that we get 
from Tories about levels of Public Expenditure and Taxation.  This is a real 
problem in British politics that we have to take into account and we have to 
balance what we promise against that.   
 
HUMPHRYS:                              But you see you yourself were 
desperately worried about severing that link.  I remember you saying, when you 
were running for the Leadership, Tory tax cuts are offensive because much of 
them are financed by cutting the Pension connection, the connection with 
earnings.  
 
PRESCOTT:                              I think, that's what they did.  That's a 
very fair point.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              But I mean you're sitting here, today, a 
couple of years later saying: Well.. 
 
PRESCOTT:                              I'm not.  I wouldn't like to leave you 
with that impression.  I think I made the charge, at the time and I still think 
it's quite valid now - that when you cut back the link and you save billions of 
pounds and you gave a tax cut, you redistributed from those who are the poorer 
in the quarter to those who are better off.  That was my judgment at the time.  
I think, it was a fair one and it's borne out by the facts.  What I'm trying to 
say to you, at the moment, is not that I don't think the principle are 
connected to earnings, that pensioners should have a right to be sharing in the 
prosperity of the country.  What I'm saying is that our priority is to make 
sure the prosperity of the country can now increase.  
 
                                       The public finances are in a bad order 
and that we will have to promise, like everything - whether it's in the 
welfare, whether it's against the pension - against the levels of public 
expenditure that we have with us, at this present time, and the existing 
taxation structure, or whatever proposals we make about tax at the appropriate 
time.  It's a balance in those things.  What we're not going to do: we're not 
going to promise more than we could deliver.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Alright. 
 
PRESCOTT:                              That's painful, that's difficult but we 
have to show the people in this country: Trust us.  Our record's fine on 
pensioners. We were the ones that did it.  We didn't dismantle it and we will 
argue the case at the appropriate time.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              So you will be fighting to restore that 
link with earnings.  
 
PRESCOTT:                              Well, we're, actually-  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              I'm asking you personally, now.  
 
PRESCOTT:                              Yes, I mean, I can do it because it's 
the NEC policy, actually. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              What? 
 
PRESCOTT:                              We have in the context that we've agreed 
this morning now and to recommend to the Conference that the whole matter to 
examine the proposals of the National Pensioners' Convention - which shows the 
connection to earnings in the real - will be considered within the reforms of 
the Welfare State.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              What - will be considered.  Can't see 
Barbara Castle, twenty years ago, on the back of a lorry saying: We will fight 
to consider, set up a committee.  This isn't old fighting talk! 
 
PRESCOTT:                              Wait a minute, when Barbara did that she 
was in Government. She knew what the finances were, she knew what the costs 
were, she argued the case in the Cabinet - wait a minute - where the money was 
coming from.  I don't know the state of public finances.  They seem to be 
worse.  We've got the IMF now warning the Government about tax cuts and saying: 
Don't take it to that.  And what does Kenneth Clark coming along now saying?  
Don't worry, I could still give tax cuts and cut Public Expenditure.   
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Alright.  Let's- 
 
PRESCOTT:                              We're making clear we have a different 
order of balance between those things but we'll be realistic.  We need to earn 
the trust and it's easier to promise something to do and then have to explain 
why we didn't do it.  We are not going to make that mistake again because it 
contributed to the loss in four Elections.  We'll only promise what we can 
deliver. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Alright.   
 
PRESCOTT:                              The Electorate expect that and that's 
the contribution of Tony Blair to the realities of the 1990s.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                               Let's look at another reality of the 
1990s then and that is the connection with the Trade Unions.  There is a deep 
suspicion that you are intent, one way or another, that the grand design is to 
sever the link with the Trade Unions.  Are they right to buy that?  
 
PRESCOTT:                              Well, they're not right and it isn't the 
intention at all and indeed, Tony Blair has said it - everybody else has said 
it.  I can't see anybody that's actually maintained that position except one 
individual who, apparently, was involved in a discussion with a journalist and 
he's denied it as well.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Alright.  
 
PRESCOTT:                              There is no plans for that.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              So, Bill Morris says: It is essential to 
maintain the link, to keep it.  The link with the dispossessed, as he puts it.  
And he says that he will die to maintain that link.  Will you die to maintain 
that link. 
 
PRESCOTT:                              I don't think Bill has to die for it. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Well, it is an indication of how serious 
he was.  
 
PRESCOTT:                              Well, I don't think he actually meant he 
would die for it.  But, he feels very strong about it and so do I.  Indeed, 
that link is maintained within the constitution of the Labour Party.  It is a 
uniqueness.  The Labour Party grew out of the Trade Unions but that doesn't 
mean it stayed the same.  There's tremendous changes that have been taking 
place.  Some of them proposed by Bill.  You know, reducing the proportion of 
votes that you should have in the actual conference decision; they're involved 
in the election of the leaders.  They've come through with proposals themselves 
- Trade Unions.  Going back to George Woodcock, if you like, we have to talk to 
Tories if they're in power... 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Right.  But he's now saying it's gone 
about as far as it ought to go, isn't he?                                       
 
PRESCOTT:                              Well, that's an argument.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Ah!  Well, do you agree with him?  Are 
you prepared to use- 
 
PRESCOTT:                              I don't think it's a static situation.  
It isn't in concrete.  Bill would tell you himself.  There were certain other 
things he would like to change in there.  I think - and I'm very comfortable 
with the relationship with the Trade Unions - but I think we've made one 
mistake, actually, and I say that as a Trade Union official.  In my life as 
a Trade Union official, I used to negotiate with employers constantly and I had 
an interest in the prosperity of the companies who I was involved in.  But, 
we've tended to give the impression of something.  We're the Labour Party but 
not the business Party.  The Tories were the business Party.  I'm bound to say 
they've not done a good deal with all the bankruptcies. 
 
                                       What we've got to do is, perhaps, reach 
out a bit more and say: we're as interested in the partnership of Trade Unions 
and indeed the business for the creation of wealth.  Unfortunately, when it's 
expressed - not fears not?  What is it?  'No favours'? 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Fears....I've forgotten. 
 
PRESCOTT:                              No favours - or whatever it is.  That's  
expresses it as if it's a break with the Trade Unions.  What it's trying to say 
is a more balanced position, that Labour in the 1990s needs to convince an 
awful lot more that we are concerned with our electors' aspirations.    
 
                                       Labour seems to be and calls itself a 
working class Party. I have a discussion with you about whether I live a middle 
class style.  It creates ructions in Britain whether I'm middle class or 
working class.  It seems as if Labour wanted an industry to represent those 
people up to the kind of foreman class and after that we'd have nothing to do 
with them.  Pity the working class. 
 
HUMPRHYS:                              Alright.  
 
PRESCOTT:                              Only fifty per cent of them voted for 
us.   It would be very nice if we got the hundred per cent.  I want to make 
this important point.  Labour has to be about the aspirations of people, to be 
concerned about their future, whether they want to own a home, whether they 
actually want to belong to a Trade Union, whether it's social justice and 
security at the workplace.  We have to seek to represent the many and not the 
few and sometimes, by emphasising that we're as relevant to those people who've 
left us since 1964 to their aspirations, their concerns about the future of 
Britain.  That's what Tony Blair's speech has been about - our potential, our 
justice, our rights.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              But one of the worries is that this 
pace of change - you conceded it yourself, in a sense - is just too fast.  And 
the problem is that it's Tony Blair in the driving seat and you, John Prescott 
in the back seat.... 
 
PRESCOTT:                              I am the Deputy Leader.  I am the Deputy 
Leader and I'm there- 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              He's going too fast for you, you say? 
 
PRESCOTT:                              No, well.  When you say going too fast.
We've got membership growth going faster than has ever occurred in the Labour 
Party, right - just remember that.  You know a hundred and fifty thousand more  
since Tony and I became the Leadership.  We've won more by-elections than any 
Party has done.  We're winning them and continuing to do so.  In the polls 
we're fifty per cent.   Now, I tell you what, if I'm in the back seat - and, 
indeed, I am - and Tony's driving it, sometimes I've expressed a view that 
perhaps: is he going too fast?  I've said that over Clause Four.  But this man 
had vision, he had commitment, he had courage to have his sight on...thinking 
what had to be done, seeing what had to be done.  That's what you want in a 
driver.  It's called 'leadership' and when people like me, like on Clause Four 
say: Hang on! I'm a bit of a Doubting Thomas here, I'm concerned about it, he 
was right on that.  I think, you've got to have the courage and conviction that 
say change is ongoing, change is Labour Party, change is about new Labour.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              In other words, Kim Howells is right.  
If they don't grasp it, if the rest of the Labour Party doesn't grasp it, 
you're going to rub their faces in it? 
 
PRESCOTT:                              No, he's not right.  I mean, I don't 
agree with what Kim says there.  I don't believe somehow that we disown 
Democratic Socialism.  I think, social justice, within a kind of prosperous 
economy, two things can be brought together.  I believe that's what Democratic 
Socialism is about.  Some countries call is Social Democratic, right?  Whether 
it's in Germany or whether it's in Sweden. 
 
                                       But, it's a judgment about we as a Party 
stand for all in the community.  We're not the few, we're for the many.  We 
believe social justice has to be along to have an economy, to sustain its 
growth, to sustain its prosperity and have a country you can be proud in.    
 
                                       I've just come back from America, where 
I've been talking to people there who dominate the media in New York - British 
people, brilliant people and yet somehow, they don't feel Britain is about 
them and there they ask me: is Labour about that?  Of course Labour's about 
aspirations and future and that's as much concern to me as it is to Tony Blair. 
  
HUMPHRYS:                              John Prescott, thank you very much, 
indeed.