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NB. THIS TRANSCRIPT WAS TYPED FROM A TRANSCRIPTION UNIT RECORDING AND NOT COPIED
FROM AN ORIGINAL SCRIPT; BECAUSE OF THE POSSIBILITY OF MIS-HEARING AND THE DIFFICULTY,
IN SOME CASES, OF IDENTIFYING INDIVIDUAL SPEAKERS, THE BBC CANNOT VOUCH
FOR ITS ACCURACY
ON THE RECORD
ROMANO PRODI INTERVIEW
RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION: BBC ONE DATE: 9.5.99
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JOHN HUMPHRYS: On Wednesday, the former Italian Prime
Minister, Romano Prodi, won the approval of the European Parliament for his nomination as
the next President of the European Commission. Mr Prodi will be a much more powerful
figure than his predecessor - more of a Jacques Delors than a Jacques Santer - and will lead the
European Union towards greater integration - no question about that. But Mr Prodi won't be
taking over until September. Until then the old Commission will stay in place, even though
they resigned in disgrace in March following a damning report by a committee of auditors - the
so-called wise men. And to the surprise of many people, Mr Prodi has said that he will allow
a number of them to stay on in his new Commission. I went to Rome to talk to Mr Prodi
about his plans for the Presidency. And I began by asking him whether, in view of the Wise
Men's criticisms of the existing Commission, he shouldn't now make a clean break with the
past and choose an entirely new Commission.
ROMANO PRODI: The wise man, you know report he lists
responsibilities but he doesn�t give responsibility to all the Commissioners, so if and I say if
there are good old Commissioners that behaved well and that are strong and intelligent men
why not to keep them.
HUMPHRYS: But some people would say even if there
were no sins of Commission of the part of all of the old Commissioners there was at least a sin
of omission, they knew that things were going badly, they knew things were happening that
should not have been happening and they did not act.
PRODI: Oh, well if there is sin of omission of course the
Commissioner will not be re-appointed. But not, not in all cases and not in general cases all the
Commissioners knew and not all the problems were put in the general meeting of the Commissioners
you know that I I I only say that we have to be serious and careful and to find the real responsibility
and to defend people who are not guilty.
HUMPHRYS: But the auditors when they made that report said it
is becoming difficult to find anyone, anyone who has even the slightest sense of responsibility in the old
Commission.
PRODI: Well ah, this is one phrase of the auditors that I
analyse it very well, but all the reports they are distinction among Commissioners, they are making a
distinction they make graduation, you have taken one phrase but all the spirit of their report, the first
report because I�m waiting for a second one. You know. So I�m speaking ah, for the news I am in this
moment you know, for the knowledge I have in this moment. But in the first report there is a real
graduation of sins as you call them.
HUMPHRYS: When you say you are waiting for another report, if
that says we have misgivings about the entire Commission for the reasons that I have just given you,
would you then be prepared to say then none of them should stay on?
PRODI: Well only if I�m convinced because..
HUMPHRYS: You�re open to being persuaded are you?
PRODI: Yeah. But the report, you know the wise man
advise is in advice. You know, I�m obliged to you know, think taking a part of that advice but what I�m
convinced here that you know they ah, good for the Commission and the good for Europe. You know,
this is my, I have to run the government you know, so I have I have a personal responsibility on that.
HUMPHRYS: As we�ve been saying, under the Amsterdam
Treaty you have considerable power when it comes to appointing the commission and what posts the
individuals get. In reality will you not have to accept the recommendations of the individual member
states?
PRODI: No. Ah, I am not obliged to accept. We�ve already
had many many exchange of view and it is very clear you know, I have a veto right but veto is only you
know an extreme behaviour, what is more important is to shape a common will in the interest of Europe
you know. In case of really different I shall exercise the veto right
HUMPHRYS: You will?
PRODI: Because, because yes it is�
HUMPHRYS: What sort of reason might you, I mean if for
instance a government, a British government or any government, were to recommend somebody who
you felt was not a sufficiently serious individual, perhaps hadn�t held a serious ministerial post.
PRODI: This is, these are the first reason, but I think I may
also refuse for let�s say less more strongly more a reason, but for reasons of opportunity. Let�s say
there is no woman indicated by any government, I look, I try to persuade we need and I want to have
women in the Commission
HUMPHRYS: But you can�t go to a single government and say:
�you must have a woman� - can you?
PRODI: Oh, well in the end I, if nobody wants, in the end I
will be obliged to tell look we have more opportunity please you have two Commissioners, one of them
this is a simple case you know. Or another case, very simple that will be, I think, may happen. You
have ah, nineteen Economists or nineteen lawyers.
HUMPHRYS: Heaven forbid
PRODI: It may happen.
HUMPHRYS: You�ve got to be careful in a sense haven�t you
because if you appoint just one individual who is unacceptable to the parliament, when it comes, it can
say: we�ll throw out the whole lot.
PRODI: This is one of the reason you know. I, you know
the Parliament make a scrutiny of the individual members of the Commission. So I have to be very
careful to choose all them individually because if one - of course I can change one - but you know that
it�s not a nice, you know a nice event to have one of your Commissioners chosen you know sacked by
the Parliament. That, you know, is a problem.
HUMPHRYS: I notice that during our conversation you�ve talked
about the commission as the government and you talk about wanting it to be strong, a strong
commission, a strong government. What do you mean by strong?
PRODI: Can Europe take - I use the same word - strong
decisions if needed as Europe. And you know this means the problem of having a set of common rights,
a set of, the problem of citizenship, of having people rights of minority, of having mobility of workers,
opportunity for young people, this all set of issues. The second is decisions of foreign policy now we
have the Balkans here, and there is this contradiction in Europe. Everybody blames Europe because we
didn�t do anything, you know, and everybody asks Europe to do something. But very few are coherent,
they say if we have to do something, we have to give power in some way power of decision that must
be quick, clear and shared.
HUMPHRYS: So that means that this Commission has to be more,
has to be stronger than the previous one?
PRODI: Yeah. Well must be and may be because the
Amsterdam Treaty is giving the power to be stronger. So it�s needed. People think that there is a need
for a stronger Commission. The Amsterdam Treaty gives a good possibility of that you know. And I
think that we have to show with a good honest and clear policy that we deserve it and this is a good for
everybody.
HUMPHRYS: So when you say that you want - as you have said -
to increase the Commission�s scope for political involvement, you mean that you want it to be more of a
government, to behave more like a government than like a bureaucracy, than like a group of civil
servants?
PRODI: This is clear. Well you must have a government and
a good civil service�
HUMPHRYS: Of course - the commission should be more than
that..
PRODI: The problem with the old Commission was that
there was a grey zone, a grey area between political responsibility and civil servants� responsibility and
what is called in European Service responsibility the public administration. Let�s be clear the
Commissioners have a political responsibility
HUMPHRYS: Right, so they will be the government then?
PRODI: Yeah, they will be the government for the power
that is given to Europe, that is not total and initial power as you know, but we have to be clear also, a
very clear statement that especially in Britain is very important, this does not mean to bring to Brussels
everything. It means to bring to Brussels fewer things and let all other decision go closer and closer to
people. I am firmly believing that you don�t need homogeneity in Europe you need to have some
common decision big decision.
HUMPHRYS: But those are the big decisions.
PRODI: Oh, the decision of Trade, Economy of Trade,
Citizens condition, you know what we saw Human Rights Justice Peace you know and also a common
Foreign policy because otherwise in the future war you have no voice.
HUMPHRYS: And a common Foreign policy includes common
defence policy?
PRODI: Well, I don�t think there is a foreign policy without
defence you know, I think that for many many aspects they are the same thing. But you know, we have
already taken decision of a real change of of the nature of the state you know, with the common
Currency.
HUMPHRYS: And in the same way that individual member states
gave up a certain amount of sovereignty to create a common currency, the same would apply in other
areas such as the defence so we would have ultimately a common army, for instance, a European army?
PRODI: A common Army for the country who accept and
want and decide to be the common Army, you know I I I think that if a state has chosen neutrality and
not to give in any military ��.. you know I I don�t think that we obliged to say that but for �
HUMPHRYS: So the European Union should have its army?
PRODI: Yeah its Army you know but does not necessarily
is comprehensive of all the countries you know, maybe you have a country without Army
HUMPHRYS: Sure, but if a country has an Army, then you believe..
PRODI: And accepts to put the defence in common yes.
HUMPHRYS: Because there is as you know some concern in the
United Kingdom for instance that British soldiers should be called to fight by a European commander
and under a European flag. I mean you think that ultimately that sort of thing is inevitable.
PRODI: You know yeah, for a country that accept that is an
event inevitable, otherwise you know we spend now two thirds of the defence budget of United States
and in terms of you know you know potential of defence is maybe one tenth of the United States. And..
HUMPHRYS: So it would be pretty meaningless without Britain
being a part of it.
PRODI: Yeah, but you know without taking sovereign
decision, we have already started, when you, when you see that there are mergers between Italian
Military firms military, firms and British one and you have already four cases in which you merge
together helicopter factories you know well, this is a step to have something in common in defence you
know. And so when we are, while we are talking we are also acting in the direction of putting the
resources together you know and the other step will be also you know putting troops together, that�s
you arrive to a common Army only very very late of course you need years and years and years, but..
HUMPHRYS: But it is the logical next stage?
PRODI: It is the logical next step. You know unless you
want you..the alternative, well you will be marginalised in the new world history. You will ask to
somebody else to defend you, this is the only alternative. I don�t think that this is part of the history of
Europe
HUMPHRYS: So yes, so in other words if a country like Britain
were to� if Britain were to say we don�t want any part of this, we want to keep our soldiers for our
own purposes, we would ultimately be marginalised?
PRODI: Well unless you are so strong, strong, strong not to
be marginalised and I think that the dimension of a single European country, Germany or Britain or
France, it�s not enough.
HUMPHRYS: Can we talk about the Balkans? Are you worried at
the way the War is going now and that what appears to be the division between some countries - the
United States notably -reluctance to put in ground forces, Britain apparently prepared to do so, Mr
Blair is concerned about this, where do your worries lie?
PRODI: Well a decision like sending ground forces of course
needs a general approval. So as far as we can say now it�s not easy to forecast, to to to to to think that
ground troops will be sent at least in the short period in the Balkans, you know. And, so, this is a
moment in which ah, is not easy to have an idea of how it will end. But in spite of that there is growing
set of conversation talks.
HUMPHRYS: You think a diplomatic solution is looking likely?
PRODI: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think there will be the
possibility of a solution you know. And now there is this sense of tension you know, if I�m�I don�t
see.. optimist.. I am less pessimist than a week ago you know
HUMPHRYS: What em,
PRODI: Talking with all the protagonists of all that is this
happening you know and of course on my side I am not part of this solution of course but I think that a
lot of the responsibility for the reconstruction and the settlement of the area will be on the European
shoulders.
HUMPHRYS: And what you want is - you�ve called for a
conference on the Balkans, now what most of those countries want is early membership of the European
Union. Is that on offer, should it be on offer?
PRODI: No let�s be clear , because ah, we decided to have
new countries in, this process will go on, and I don�t think that the Balkan will be brought into Europe
before other countries but, but it�s important to offer them a political settlement and an economic
settlement that can bring hope to the young men that they will be in peace. And the message to the other
countries that applied for the European Union is clear that there is no change in that order, because we
have to be loyal and clear. But if we don�t offer, if we don�t offer the Balkans the idea of a definite
settlement in which they may live in a huge market preserving their identity you know and the national
situation in a situation of parity with a European guarantee, we shall never have peace in the Balkans.
HUMPHRYS: The Euro was obviously a hugely important step in
European integration, Britain remains outside the Euro. You have said that either the Euro will fall or
Britain will be in. Now which of those two possibilities do you think is the most likely?
PRODI: Well in this case I don�t speak as the President of
the Commission, but you know as an individual I think the second. Britain will come in because
otherwise� the Euro is working with the financial market very strongly. In a few months we had so big
change in the market, many of them organised by American firms you know because they know how to
handle a big market. And I think that to be out of that in the long run will be a problem for UK. I don�t
say that it�s a problem for tomorrow you know, but to be out of the Euro for such a fantastic financial
market as is the City of London will be a problem.
HUMPHRYS: But as you well know many people in Britain say
we are very strong now precisely because we are not in the Euro and we can go our own way, we can set
our own interest rates and so on.
PRODI: Yeah, till the moment in which somebody else will
not organise a competitive market, you know it�s not easy, cannot be done in one day because the skill
and the people that is working in the City is fantastic you know, is a big resource but in the long run
you can�t be out of the market and be leader of the market.
HUMPHRYS: Yeah, but you see when they look at it at the
moment they see a Euro that is much weaker than it was when it was launched, they see high levels of
unemployment in the Euro zone�
PRODI: Yeah, well but this is a short term fluctuation and I
don�t think the Euro will weak in the future. Concerning unemployment you are completely right but
sorry but this was also before the building up of Euro you know the construction of Europe. We have a
structure that is depending upon many other reasons. But I�m convinced that now will be much easier
to fight unemployment. Because you can�t fight unemployment if you don�t defeat inflation. And you
have, have got a long horizon of stability.
HUMPHRYS: The people now expect the new Commission under
your presidency to be absolutely free of sleaze, any taint of wrong-doing. Many allegations have been
made against yourself, and I know you say they have been cleared within this country but is it not going
to be difficult to say, in the words of Jacques Santer, that from now on you are whiter than white?
PRODI: Look I put everything on the table, everything has
been clarified you know everybody can control and check you know but, of course there is no hint of
any allegation of any that can be put on on my self.
HUMPHRYS: So to use your own expression you are totally free
of any blemish. You would welcome, when Parliament comes to ratify your appointment you would
welcome any investigation, co-operate with any investigation by the parliament?
PRODI: I have already done you know. But you know there
is no evidence of any type of any mismanagement, of any personal interest you know and also if you, of
course if you are hinting to what was written in a British newspaper.
HUMPHRYS: There�s been a great deal written in the British
newspapers.
PRODI: Yeah they came here, they, there was no point in
which they found new things that was not analysed by a judge and they have ah, had conversation with,
you know, what for years and years were em, let�s say, the persons who were against me you know
politically ah, in terms of you know personal ah, animosity. But in spite of that there is nothing new.
But anyway I am very open to everything you
know, but I think that, I�ve been happy that this was in the beginning of it, so you know, so it�s a new
start with an open book. Of course every man who had such a big responsibility as a head of the
government and public company sector for years and years, you know, how can you be free of
accusation. The problem is to be clear in opening the book and having a judgement that is definite and
clear - this was my case.
HUMPHRYS: I was talking to Romano Prodi in Rome a few days
ago.
�oooOooo�
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