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ON THE RECORD
SIR LEON BRITTAN INTERVIEW
RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 4.10.98
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JOHN HUMPHRYS: Sir Leon, you're going to be hammered,
there's not much doubt about that, is there. So, can Mr Hague, should not Mr
Hague be entitled to expect you to keep quiet after that.
SIR LEON BRITTAN: Well I'm afraid - of course the result
is a foregone conclusion - but I do think it's inconceivable that that will be
the end of the matter and it's inconceivable because of the pressure of events.
The Euro is actually going to come into existence at the beginning of next
year. There will be intense interest in it and to say that the whole argument
is closed, the Conservative Party afterall has not decided its policy on
anything else for the next election, and to say that's it, when two hundred
thousand or whatever it is, people have voted in a particular direction, when
the Conservative Party has got to win back four and a half million people, it's
just not possible. And apart from the pressure of events and the fact that the
party has got to win over all those people back, there is also the fact that
the British business community is seriously worried about the Conservative
Party's official stance and I think they will get more worried when the Euro
comes into existence. And I think that they will be very concerned at the
Conservative Party alienating itself from its natural roots. And for all those
reasons I just don't think that this can possibly resolve things definitively.
HUMPHRYS: There may or may not be something in all
of what you say. But the fact is the Tory Party will have spoken and you say
two hundred thousand people, they happen to be, if that's what they are, if
that's what the figure is, they happen to be two hundred thousand Conservative
Party members. They are supporting the decision of the leadership. Therefore
that is democracy in action. Mr Hague has said then the argument will be over.
BRITTAN: Well, no. What the Conservative Party
will have decided in a perfectly legitimate way. It may think it's unwise to
have insisted on taking that decision and polarising the issue in that way. But
will be the official position of the Conservative Party.
HUMPHRYS: Democratically arrived at.
BRITTAN: Absolutely. That will be decided, for
the moment, nothing lasts for ever. But, on the other hand, the argument will
continue and the discussion will continue and the discussion will continue in
the Conservative Party. Now what many of us would have perferred was not to
try and bring this issue to a head in this way, but to recognise the fact that
on European questions there have been divisions in both parties for a
generation. And the only thing to do, is to recognise that and to say that we
know that there are different views and that the party itself will wait until
much nearer the General Election, seeing how events go on and take a view.
Now, if you think that it could never be
the case that Britain could join the Single Currency, well that's one story.
But that's not the official position that the leadership is seeking and if you
are not saying never, then it can't be right to say three and a half years
before the next General Election what the position is going to be for a whole
five years after that.
HUMPHRYS: But if the leader thinks it's right. If
the leadership thinks it's right, if the members by their vote think it is
right, then who are you to say no we will continue to talk. Afterall Mr Hague
has said: I can carry on without them, without you lot.
BRITTAN: Well, John it's a very curious concept
of democracy to say that when there's been a vote that ends the argument.
Particularly when the events are moving on.
HUMPHRYS: Otherwise you'd never settle anything.
BRITTAN: The policy is decided. Of course that is
the official policy of the Conservative Party. But it doesn't make it the right
policy and it doesn't mean that all Conservatives are going to agree with it.
And in fact, it is quite unlike, for example, burying Clause Four because that
was the case of burying some legacy from the past. Here this is an issue for
the future. And when eleven countries on our doorstep with whom we are closely
related through membership of the European Union, go ahead with this. And it
has a profound impact on the British economy whether we are in or not,
seriously to expect people to say: oh, well we're not discussing this, that's
all been decided by a vote of these two hundred thousand people, is just not
reality.
But also, the other point is that people
do feel strongly about it. Now, to be fair to the leadership, they are not
saying that nobody should say a word more about it. They are..
HUMPHRYS: Pretty much.
BRITTAN: No, no,..
HUMPHRYS: But Michael Ancram: 'if they continue to
speak out they will be seen to be speaking out against the democratically
expressed views of party members'. Very clear there.
BRITTAN: That's a right that people always have.
HUMPHRYS: He seemed to think that you don't have
it any longer.
BRITTAN: No, he didn't say that.
HUMPHRYS: 'If they continue to speak out, they
will continue to speak out..'
BRITTAN: Of course, they will be. But they will
be prefectly entitled in a free country to do that.
HUMPHRYS: Well, maybe not in the Tory Party, free
country yes, leave the party and you can say what you like, but within the
party keep your mouth shut - that's the message.
BRITTAN: That's not been what the Conservative
leadership has said. But whether it is or it isn't, the fact of the matter is
that there are...
HUMPHRYS: Mr Hague said the members will give you
short shrift if you carry on.
BRITTAN: There are significant numbers of people
who just don't agree with this line and there will be more. And the business
community will not agree with it.
HUMPHRYS: Within the party, they'll change their
minds?
BRITTAN: I think people will change their minds
as they see the Single Currency coming to existence and having an effect and I
think that that will change. And the argument will be developed further. But
that, I mean I just think that it is completely contrary to the pragmatic
traditions of the Conservative Party to take one issue, however important it
is, and to decide it's line on that issue, three and a half years before an
election, when the Conservative Party does not have a policy..
HUMPHRYS: We'll come to that in a minute.
BRITTAN: ..on environment, on education, on tax
and rightly so, because if you do form a policy too early, either it is
superseeded by events, or the government sees if it is the right..
HUMPHRYS: Alright, we'll come to the substance of
it in a moment, but if the leadership - if Mr Hague himself has said: this is
what I want to do, and if the party supports me this is what the policy will
be, by continuing to speak out you will clearly be causing damage to the
party...
BRITTAN: I'm very surprised that you of all
people should be espousing such an authoritarian view.
HUMPHRYS: I'm merely a mouthpiece, as you know I -
the stuff goes in there and comes out there ... the views ...
BRITTAN: It sounds authoritarian in the way that
I can't imagine.....
HUMPHRS: A remark you must address to your leader
and not to me.
BRITTAN: Oh, no, no, no, because I think you're
misrepresenting it that William Hague or - no I feel alarmed that either we...
HUMPHRYS: ... is over, I can go on without them, I
mean....
BRITTAN: Of course, but that doesn't mean that
people can't express their view, and won't express their view. Now you are
trying to impose or interpret a sort of authoritarianism that William Hague and
Michael Howard who's coming after me I'm sure wouldn't dream of saying. Of
course the party ...
HUMPHRYS: We shall see.
BRITTAN: We shall see. Of course the party will
have voted, but free speech doesn't end there. This isn't Stalinist Russia
where once the party has voted - or just a moment, or decided anything, nobody
else can say a single word. (INTERRUPTION) And that's not the way we would want
this country to ....
HUMPHRYS: But I mean how many of your old
colleagues during the last election campaign said, "We're gonna lose this
election unless people keep their mouths shut. Look at the damage they're
doing". Voters don't like to see a divided party.
BRITTAN: Of course they don't, but that's why I
think that a better course would have been not to seek to bring the issue to a
head. That's the important point. I think that it is precisely because it was
wholly predicable that on this issue where feelings are strong, where things
matter, where people of substance have established important positions which
they're not going to change, and where they can't just say "I'm not going to
say a word about it" - what do you expect Ken Clarke to do if asked when the
Single Currency is created, what do you think about it, to say "I'm sorry, to
say...
HUMPHRYS: Tell us what our policy is, this is my
party's policy. I can't quite see Ken doing it, it must be said, but....
BRITTAN: Well, it's inconceivable, but not only
is it inconceivable, it was predictably conceivable. Therefore this device of
having an election before the conference even debates a referendum, before the
conference even debates the thing, was doomed to fail if it was meant to stifle
discussion, and predictably, and that's why it would have been better not to do
this. It would have been better to simply say: we recognise there are
divisions, we will take a view, we've up to now had the view that we will leave
the matter open for the moment, that was John Major's position, and it was a
sensible one as it happened. Now some of us are in favour of going in, but
that was a sensible one.
HUMPHRYS: But why is not sensible equally to say:
we want to see how the Euro fares in good times and in bad throughout an entire
economic cycle, we want to see how that is. You can't do that in three years
can you. You need to see the whole process through, then we can make a
judegement. That's what the ..Mr Hague is saying isn't it?
BRITTAN: Well, because the cycle or the period of
time which enables you to take a view, if you want to wait that time, cannot be
dictated by the measuring rod of British electoral process. There's absolutely
no reason why the duration of the next parliament should be the appropriate
period in which to take a view, and it might be the case that one would take a
view, and should take a view before that comes. The other point of course is
this, and I speak as somebody who has been in favour of Britain joining for a
long time, that if we wait a year or two after our partners start ahead, well
they're not going to race ahead so fast that it's going to matter, but if this
works, if it is beneficial, the longer we wait the harder it's going to be
because the benefits will be enjoyed by others, and we won't enjoy them. And
secondly of course there are important decisions to be made about the operation
of the Single Currency but also about the use that Europe makes of its new
power, which Britain will simply not be a party to. Now, you're seeing now a
world economic crisis. After next January willy-nilly the eleven countries
that form what's going to be called 'Euro-land', that's shorthand - will have
to take a collective view on that, and it will be a view that will have a
massive impact on Britain and on the world, and Britain will not be party to
that. And you can say that that doesn't matter to start with, but the longer
that goes on, the more damaging it becomes, damaging to Britain's influence in
Europe, damaging to Britain's influence in the world and damaging to the
British economy.
HUMHRYS: It could be of course that what the
Conservative Party leadership is about is really saying here, - there's a
hidden agenda here - is we actually don't want to go in ever - that's what this
is about.
BRITTAN: Well, that wouldn't be very honest would
it, because I hope and believe that colleagues and friends of mine who I know
as well as William Hague and Michael Howard, if they thought that would have
the honesty to say so. I know that there are some people who think that, but I
think this debate has been long enough in the Conservative Party that if you
want to put an end to it, and that's really what you say, you've got to come
and say that, and that realy is the ambiguity of the position which makes it, I
think, very difficult to defend, to say - if you said no, never, fine, I would
passionately disagree with that, but that's a clear position. But to say:
well, we haven't said that, but we're waiting for a fixed and named period of
time during which we won't join in, seems to me wrong, and it's clear from
opinion polls that the public share that view - the public can understand and
know, but they can't understand that, and it's wholly contrary to the pragmatic
traditions of the Conservative Party to take that kind of line.
HUMPHRYS: So by tomorrow afternoon, tomorrow
evening, whenever we know the result of the ballot, whatever the ballot says,
as far as you're concerned nothing really will have changed.
BRITTAN: No, something will have changed. The
Conservative Party will by proper constitutional procedures, have taken a
decision as to what its position is.
HUMPHRYS: But your position won't have changed and
you will continue to defend your position.
BRITTAN: But you can't seriously expect those who
have thought about these things - and this is not just some trivial thing to
say: Oh well, we don't agree with that - it doesn't matter - simply to say: I
refuse to answer questions on this. I take part in debates, you invite me to,
other people too. Am I going to say, "Sorry,I can't say anything about that,
because the party activists have voted. It would be a ludicrous position to
ask Ken Clarke or Michael Heseltine or David Curry or Ian Clark or any of these
people - or Ian Taylor for me to do. It's just absolutely inconceivable, and
that's why this device was never going to work. It was going to work in
establishing what the official policy is, but it wasn't going to work if the
purpose was to end debate in the Conservative Party, and I don't think that
anybody expects that it will end debate in the Conservative Party.
HUMPHRYS: Sir Leon Brittan, thank you very much
indeed.
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