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ON THE RECORD
STEPHEN BYERS INTERVIEW
RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION: BBC ONE DATE: 28.3.99
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JOHN HUMPHRYS: This week another of Labour's new promises
comes into effect: the minimum wage will be a reality from Thursday. Business leaders
aren't madly keen on that, nor on some of the other regulations that the government's
bringing in. And there's a bit more pressure on the industrial front: if they don't
give an awful lot of money to BMW, the Longbridge car factory, Britain's biggest,
might yet be closed down. So the Industry Secretary Stephen Byers faces some difficult
choices, and he's with me now.
Mr Byers you're not going to be
frightfully popular with business are you? They don't much like the minimum wage
in the fist place and they're not much going to like the way it is going to be enforced
are they?
BYERS: I think the debate about the
minimum wage has moved on..
HUMPHRYS: It's got to be enforced now.
BYERS: The Minimum wage was a clear
manifesto commitment and when we make promises we keep them and what we'll see on
Thursday is a promise that we made to the electorate being kept. But it's being introduced
in a responsible and a reasonable way and that's why we asked the Low Pay Commission
to come forward with a rate. It's been set now at three pounds sixty and industry
itself and employers accept that we need a safety net to ensure that cowboy employers
don't get away with low standards, with poverty pay and two million people on Thursday
with benefit from the introduction of a national minimum wage.
HUMPHRYS: But as far as enforcing it is concerned
what you could do I suppose, if you didn't want to upset the bosses too much, you
could sort of take a view that well, we'll treat it like the old wages councils who
hardly ever met and nobody took any notice of them. It was there, sort of, but it
wasn't pushed down their throats as it were.
BYERS: Well the Wages Councils was
a disaster in terms of enforcement because there was a whole army of inspectors employed
by the government who didn't really do the work effectively. There is a far better
way of approaching it and this is what we're going to do which is have a dedicated
unit of just over one hundred people targeted work in areas where we know that low
pay is rife, in hotel and catering, textiles and clothing, in the retail sector and
we'll also have an information line so that if someone feels they're not getting
the minimum wage they can ring up, they can inform the Inland Revenue and a check
can then be taken. That's a far better way of doing it instead of employing a whole
army of inspectors which was pretty ineffective under the old Wages Councils.
HUMPHRYS: But employers will still be punished
if they don't comply?
BYERS: There will be an enforcement
requirement of course.
HUMPHRYS: Yeah - so there is going to be
red tape involved in that because clearly they've got to look after that as it were
for themselves.
BYERS: No John, that's wrong because
what I did, one of the first things I did on becoming Industry Secretary was to reduce
the regulation for the national minimum wage and all they need to do is to use the
records they keep at the moment because employers keep records about how much people
are being paid......
HUMPHRYS: So what are you going to do to
them then?
BYERS: They need to keep sufficient
records.
HUMPHRYS: And what if they don't comply,
then what happens to them?
BYERS: Well the Act requires them
to do so and there will be a fine that can be levied on them.
HUMPHRYS: Five thousand pounds.
BYERS: It's five thousand or seven
pound twenty a day for each employee.
HUMPHRYS: So there are sanctions there, which
some of them clearly....they've made it absolutely clear over the last weeks and
months they do not like but they are going to have it....
BYERS: No, the reality is that many
employers are already introducing the minimum wage. Burger King, Macdonald's, Thomas
Cook...
HUMPHRYS: That's not disputed.....
BYERS: ....Whitbread's have done
it and they've done it because they recognise that it's good in terms of motivation
of staff, reducing turnover, improving productivity. There are very positive reasons
in addition to the fairness and the justice of a minimum wage there is a business
case for the minimum wage as well.
HUMPHRYS: But obviously extra red tape, bound
to be, anything you do in...
BYERS: ...no, I can't see, tell me..
HUMPHRYS: ..there is bound to be some because
they have to explain, well they have to justify, they have to prove to somebody that
they are doing it and then they've got to be inspected and if the worker says 'I'm
not getting it because this is a bit complicated' somebody has got to look into that.
BYERS: The Government will do that...
HUMPHRYS: ..yeah, but they will be involved
in this process clearly.
BYERS: All you need to do as an employers
is to keep your existing records and that's all you need to do because that will
say how much you're being paid, how many hours you're working - simple.
HUMPHRYS: Can you reassure them in the same
way I wonder about the other regulations, the other legislation that's going to come
in. That's the Employment Relations Bill. Now various things are happening there
for which they will not have records I mean you say no problems with the minimum
wage because the records are already there. There won't be records for instance
if you're talking about the Parental Leave Directive, this is something new, three
months off..... by some but not by all, not by all the employers because we're now
going to have to have they say to keep new records, they're going to have to be checked
up on, more red tape not less red tape.
BYERS: Well they don't know yet and
what they do know of course is that we are introducing some family friendly policies,
time off for family emergencies, unpaid parental leave for up to three months now.
HUMPHRYS: Are they 'boss' friendly policies
is my point?
BYERS: Well those are the principles
that we're going to apply and we're going to do it in a practical way which I think
can overcome the difficulties that business understandably has identified. Now what
I intend to do is to consult widely on how we're going to introduce these policies.
I think there's a new way in which we can approach these issues. I think most employers
recognise the importance of family friendly policies and I want to introduce them
in a way which is welcomed by the individual in the workplace but which is acceptable
to business as well.
HUMPHRYS: So you are going to try to avoid
the mistakes of the working time directive for instance.
BYERS: Well we're looking very carefully
at the guidance that's been given there and I think it can be improved and as I said
in Parliament the other day, I'm reviewing all of the regulations as they effect
business because I think this is a real issue that we do have to address as a priority.
I intend to that, I think we can improve it, and I think we start from the presumption
of the need for a case to be made for a regulation to be introduced and I think at
the moment, we all must start from saying we'll introduce a regulation and then take
it from there.
HUMPHRYS: I mean there are those who say
for every new regulation we introduce you should get rid of two old ones, have you
got some sort of target like that.
BYERS: No, I don't want to repeat
the mistakes of the previous government which was Michael Heseltine talked about
a bonfire of regulations and then we saw fourteen thousand new regulations introduced
over two years.
HUMPHRYS: It's part of Europe though isn't
it. I mean you are a victim of that as well, you're as much a victim of Brussels
as they were.
BYERS: The difficulty we have is
that when we have a European directive we are inclined to gold plate it in the United
Kingdom...
HUMPHRYS: ..and are you saying we'll stop
doing that.
BYERS: ..and I think there are other
ways in which we can approach it. We can deliver on the principle but do so on a
way which protects the individual in the workplace but doesn't increase the burden
on the employer.
HUMPHRYS: So we might... a lot of people
will throw up their hands and say: hallelujah Lord be praised, we might be a little
bit more like the Italians or the French God forbid and say..
BYERS: We'll never be like the Italians
or the French...
HUMPHRYS: Of course not. We will be British.
BYERS: There will be a British way
in which we can introduce it which will not have the implications for the burdens
on business which perhaps we've had in the past.
HUMPHRYS: So the British way will be a little
more..
BYERS: It will be a third way.
HUMPHRYS: Why did I think you were going
to say that.
A little bit more relaxed then.
BYERS: It will be a way which delivers
on the commitments and meets the promises which we've made and which we are keen
to insure that we do that. But also recognising that in doing so we can inadvertently
place burdens on business and we don't want to do that, we want to work together
in partnership to meet the challenges that lie ahead.
HUMPHRYS: Now here is a way you may very
seriously upset industry and that is if you do not give BMW what they are looking
for as far as the Longbridge Plant is concerned, Rover. They are going to be very
concerned if you don't meet, more or less, the BMW demands and BMW want two hundred
million pounds, give or take, you've said, as far as I can understand it, correct
me if I am wrong, they are not going to get much more than half that.
BYERS: Well BMW have applied for
something over two hundred million..
HUMPHRYS: More than two hundred...
BYERS: More than two hundred million
in government aid to keep Longbridge. We've in very detailed discussions with BMW
about that application. I want to make sure that any money that we give them is not
just a bail out, it's got to trigger in substantial investment from BMW themselves.
It's got to raise the skills levels of the workers at Longbridge and it's got to
lead to improved productivity. Now this is a different way of approaching government
support. I think it's the proper way because only by meeting those three requirements
can we guarantee a long-term future for BMW at Longbridge. That's what I want to
see, that's what I believe BMW wants to see.
HUMPHRYS: What, the government running the
factory
BYERS: No, the government giving
aid to meet particular requirements. I'm not in the business of signing blank cheques
to any industry. What I am in the business of doing is getting a good return for
taxpayers' money and lasting prosperity. The only way we will achieve that in any
business is if we improve productivity, raise skills and see substantial investment
from the private sector. That's what I want to achieve at Longbridge.
HUMPHRYS: So if BMW say: yeah we are happy
to do all those things that you have just described, you'll say we will give you
all the money you want.
BYERS: We'll then have a detailed
discussion about how much government money should be provided.
HUMPHRYS: So you are not ruling out the possibility
that they will get what they want so long as they meet your objectives.
BYERS: I think it would be unusual
to provide something over two hundred million pounds in these particular circumstances.
HUMPHRYS: But not rule it out.
BYERS: But I want to get a settlement
which protects Longbridge for the future but also gets value for the British taxpayer.
HUMPHRYS: You can't see Longbridge closed
can you?
BYERS: Sorry?
HUMPHRYS: You can't see Longbridge closed
can you?
BYERS: That will be a decision for
BMW. What I need to do is to make sure that we target public money to ensure that
we have a long-term future for particular industries and that is what we are seeking
to do as far as BMW and Longbridge are concerned and I'm confident that in the near
future there will be a successful outcome which will be welcomed by people at Longbridge,
by people in the West Midlands and indeed the country generally.
HUMPHRYS: Stephen Byers, thank you very much
indeed.
And that's it for this week. We
shall not be back next week because it's Easter, so we will see you on April the
25th, enjoy the holiday. Good afternoon.
...oooOooo...
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