Interview with David Trimble




 
 
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                                 ON THE RECORD 
                            DAVID TRIMBLE INTERVIEW        
 
RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1                                 DATE: 17.11.96
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JOHN HUMPHRYS:                         Now, Northern Ireland.  Any day now, 
there's going to be a statement from Mr Major about the multi-Party talks that 
have been going on since the summer.  They haven't got far and they do not 
include representatives of Sinn Fein.  It's believed Mr Major will spell out 
the conditions under which Sinn Fein might join in.  Whatever he says can it 
possibly be enough to satisfy the other vital players in the game: the Ulster 
Unionists.  Their Leader is David Trimble and he's on the line from Belfast.   
 
                                       Good Afternoon, Mr Trimble.   
 
DAVID TRIMBLE MP:                      Good afternoon.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              The Government has been making another 
apparently serious attempt to get Sinn Fein involved in these talks.  Are they 
right to do it and the way they're going about it, has that been right?   
 
TRIMBLE:                               Well, I supported the Government earlier 
this year when they set up the talks process and said that they were giving 
Sinn Fein the opportunity to join in but that if Sinn Fein did not join in, the 
talks would go on without them.  Now, Sinn Fein have been given a chance but 
instead of joining in, we've had - what?  The Canary Wharf bomb, the Manchester 
bomb, the Aldwych bomb, the bomb in Lisburn, the bomb in Fermanagh.  We've had 
nothing but violence since then.  And, I think, it is, actually, flying in the 
face of the evidence in reality to think that there's any prospect of Sinn Fein 
accepting the requirements that everyone had agreed on - namely that they'd 
commit themselves to peaceful means in the democratic process.  
 
                                       So, in our view, we should now be 
committing ourselves to go forward with the existing Parties and that's been 
our position for some time.  Unfortunately, the Government seems to be still 
dithering, unable to do so and still yearning after Sinn Fein's involvement.   
 
HUMPHRYS:                              So, Mr Major - the Government - is wrong 
not to acknowledge that the talks have to proceed without Sinn Fein, to accept 
that inevitability, in your view?  
 
TRIMBLE:                               I think, this is the reality but there's 
some people who are not living in the real world, who think that there is - who 
believe the rumours emanating from Sinn Fein about ceasefires and commitment to 
peaceful means.  But, we now know that the previous ceasefire was fradulent 
from the outset.  We can see what Sinn Fein are doing at the moment and what 
these rumours that Sinn Fein have put into circulation are designed to do, in 
my view, is to hold the talks back, to frustrate the talks and unfortunately, 
Government's allowing them to succeed in their aim of frustrating the talks.   
 
HUMPHRYS:                              So, you are suggesting, it seems, that, 
perhaps, Sir Patrick Mayhew, the Northern Ireland Secretary, isn't living in 
the real world?  
 
TRIMBLE:                               I fear that's the case.  I mean, I was 
quite amazed at the speech that he gave in Manchester and quite -not quite the 
appropriate place to go to engage in sending signals to the IRA, I would have 
thought.  But, in that speech, earlier this evening, he seemed to be 
concerned simply to respond to the IRA and to their demands.  I think, what he 
should be doing is paying more attention to the eighty-five per cent who are 
committed to democratic politics and to concentrate on trying to make sure that 
the democratic process produces something for a change, instead of allowing it 
to be frustrated by the demands of the IRA. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Are you losing confidence in Sir Patrick 
Mayhew? 
 
TRIMBLE:                               Well, we disagree with his approach. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              What's that mean? 
 
TRIMBLE:                               We disagree with his approach.  We think 
he's got his priorities wrong and I think he should have as his priorities that 
of trying to make sure that the political process succeeds, rather than having 
us as priority, trying to induce Sinn Fein to enter the process.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              So, so long as he continues to do that - 
and, as you say there has been this apparent dialogue between him and Martin 
McGuinness of Sinn Fein during these past couple of days, in which they seem to 
have agreed on all manner of things, if we're to believe the reports of what 
they've been saying - you've got grave reservations? 
 
TRIMBLE:                               Well, as I say, he's got his-My view is 
that he's got his priorities wrong.  That's what I told him last week and I 
do hope that the Government will get agrip of itself and operate in the real 
world.   
 
HUMPHRYS:                              This is more than just you saying: I 
disagree with his approach, isn't it?  I mean, what seems to be happening 
here is that there is a fundamental difference between you and the British 
Government over this whole process? 
 
TRIMBLE:                               Well, as I started out by saying, I 
supported the Government when they launched this process, saying as they did 
that they were going to give Sinn Fein the chance to get involved.  But, if 
Sinn Fein didn't take that chance, by putting in place a ceasefire and 
committing themselves to peaceful means in the democratic process then the 
talks would go on without them.  Now, I think, we've reached that awkward 
moment where you have to make a choice.   
 
                                       But rather than actually make the  
choice that the circumstances dictate, the Government is dithering.  They're 
trying to have it both ways, rather than to commit itself to what the situation 
cries out for.  Now, there is, obviously, a difference of view, a difference of 
assessment between ourselves and, apparently, the Government at the moment.  
But, to paint that as being a fundamental difference is, I think, pushing it a 
little too far. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Well, hang on, I mean, the Government 
isn't dithering here, is it?  The Government is saying quite clearly: we 
believe that peace is still achievable and the way to get that peace is to 
include Sinn Fein in this process.   The Government's quite clear on its 
approach and its aims.   
 
TRIMBLE:                               Well, I'll remind you of where we were a 
few months ago and of the statements by the Government that if Sinn Fein didn't 
take the chance that was offered to them by declaring a ceasefire then the 
talks would go on without them.  And, we're saying to them that in our 
assessment that is the situation at the moment and that's what should be done 
in terms of the talks.  But, the Government just seems reluctant to come to the 
obvious conclusion.  And, the conclusion is obvious.  When you look at the 
actions of Sinn Fein and bear in mind also the press reports today indicating 
that hardliners - people who are heavily committed to violence and to the 
renewed bombing campaign - have been moved into key positions within the IRA, 
within recent weeks.   
 
                                       Bear in mind the evidence of the finds 
by the Metropolitan Police in London, of the raids made by the IRA in London 
within recent weeks and expected, the assessment that's coming from the Police 
and the security services that we're in for a period of renewed violence.  Now, 
these are the realities and there is an element, I'm afraid, within Government 
that's having difficulty facing up to these realities and appreciating what 
needs to be done. 
  
HUMPHRYS:                              But surely they have faced up to those 
realities.  They're not blind to them anymore than you are and they have said, 
notwithstanding all of that: we believe that to include Sinn Fein is the way 
towards peace.  You believe that that isn't?  
 
TRIMBLE:                               Bear in mind Sinn Fein's demands because 
Sinn Fein has made it very clear, in recent weeks, what the price is for their 
inclusion in the Talks, namely the dropping of all preconditions, the 
acceptance of a time frame, removing the Principle of Consent.  If Government 
is going to accede to those demands, that means throwing away the provisions 
and the legislation that set up the Talks.  And, it means that as a result of 
IRA violence there will have been massive Government surrenders in terms of 
basic principles.  Now I think Government needs to think carefully about this - 
is that what they're proposing to do?  Because if they are, then I think we'll 
not have peace but instead renewed violence because the Government will have 
demonstrated to Sinn Fein and to others that planting bombs in London, 
Manchester, Belfast and Fermanagh has worked.  Now that's not the message to 
send. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              At what stage do you say, there really 
isn't any point in proceeding, in going on with this process as it stands -
certainly before the-in the period leading up to the Election?  Therefore we 
think the whole thing should just be put on hold. 
 
TRIMBLE:                               Well we're not at that point, despite my 
difference of assessment... with the Government as to what we should be doing 
at the present moment.  We are going to persevere in terms of persuading the 
Government to commit itself to serious talks with the present Parties.  We will 
perservere about that.  There may very well come a time when, as you say, the 
assessment that you've mentioned - that we can't precede much further this side 
of the General Election - may have to be made.  But, we haven't reached that 
yet.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              And at what point do you, as the leader 
of a Party that in a sense, holds the balance of power - just about anyway, at 
Westminster?  Well I know 'just about'- 
 
TRIMBLE:                                'Just'.  That 'just about anyway' 
conceals the fact that we don't! 
HUMPHRYS:                              Alright.  But, one vote in it at the 
moment, a by-Election coming up.  Then there'll - presumably - be no votes in 
it.  So that's balance of power if ever there was one.  At what point do you 
say: if this Government is not serving what I believe and my Party believes to 
be the best interests of Northern Ireland we will say you have lost our 
support, we will do our damnedst to bring this Government down?   
 
TRIMBLE:                               I can't actually imagine that we would 
publicly say that: we will do our damnedst to bring any Government down". 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Why not? 
 
TRIMBLE:                               It may be that the situation will arise 
where we will have to decide as, I will imagine, like I expect, that before too 
long, issues will arise which involve matters of confidence.  We will then make 
a choice in the light of the situation then as to whether we have or have not 
confidence in the Government.   
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Why not?  Why if you are mostly 
concerned, as the leader of the Ulster Unionists with the future of Northern 
Ireland, why would you never say: but hang on this Government isn't doing what 
we think is right and proper for Northern Ireland?  Why might you never say, so 
therefore the next logical step is to bring them down?  Isn't the reality that 
you can't do that because the alternative, a possible Labour Government might 
be even worse.  
 
TRIMBLE:                               Well, I don't have a crystal ball and so 
I don't know what the alternatives will be.  There may be circumstances where 
we would vote against the Government on a confidence issue - yes, indeed. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              At what stage? 
 
TRIMBLE:                               I can't tell you that, I don't have a 
crystal ball.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              But if there were to be a confidence 
issue next week for instance would you say: right, that's it we'll vote against 
'em?  
 
TRIMBLE:                               Well if there is a confidence issue next 
week, then, we'll consider it.  I mean we're not going to be scared of taking 
decisions on this as we demonstrated this week with our vote on the issue of 
BSE, where we took that vote knowing that it could in turn trigger off a 
confidence vote if the Government lost it because Labour might have put a 
confidence vote down.  So if the situation arises we'll take decisions and 
we'll take decisions in the light of our assessment of the situation. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              David Trimble, thanks very much indeed. 
 
 
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