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ON THE RECORD
DAVID TRIMBLE INTERVIEW
RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 17.11.96
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JOHN HUMPHRYS: Now, Northern Ireland. Any day now,
there's going to be a statement from Mr Major about the multi-Party talks that
have been going on since the summer. They haven't got far and they do not
include representatives of Sinn Fein. It's believed Mr Major will spell out
the conditions under which Sinn Fein might join in. Whatever he says can it
possibly be enough to satisfy the other vital players in the game: the Ulster
Unionists. Their Leader is David Trimble and he's on the line from Belfast.
Good Afternoon, Mr Trimble.
DAVID TRIMBLE MP: Good afternoon.
HUMPHRYS: The Government has been making another
apparently serious attempt to get Sinn Fein involved in these talks. Are they
right to do it and the way they're going about it, has that been right?
TRIMBLE: Well, I supported the Government earlier
this year when they set up the talks process and said that they were giving
Sinn Fein the opportunity to join in but that if Sinn Fein did not join in, the
talks would go on without them. Now, Sinn Fein have been given a chance but
instead of joining in, we've had - what? The Canary Wharf bomb, the Manchester
bomb, the Aldwych bomb, the bomb in Lisburn, the bomb in Fermanagh. We've had
nothing but violence since then. And, I think, it is, actually, flying in the
face of the evidence in reality to think that there's any prospect of Sinn Fein
accepting the requirements that everyone had agreed on - namely that they'd
commit themselves to peaceful means in the democratic process.
So, in our view, we should now be
committing ourselves to go forward with the existing Parties and that's been
our position for some time. Unfortunately, the Government seems to be still
dithering, unable to do so and still yearning after Sinn Fein's involvement.
HUMPHRYS: So, Mr Major - the Government - is wrong
not to acknowledge that the talks have to proceed without Sinn Fein, to accept
that inevitability, in your view?
TRIMBLE: I think, this is the reality but there's
some people who are not living in the real world, who think that there is - who
believe the rumours emanating from Sinn Fein about ceasefires and commitment to
peaceful means. But, we now know that the previous ceasefire was fradulent
from the outset. We can see what Sinn Fein are doing at the moment and what
these rumours that Sinn Fein have put into circulation are designed to do, in
my view, is to hold the talks back, to frustrate the talks and unfortunately,
Government's allowing them to succeed in their aim of frustrating the talks.
HUMPHRYS: So, you are suggesting, it seems, that,
perhaps, Sir Patrick Mayhew, the Northern Ireland Secretary, isn't living in
the real world?
TRIMBLE: I fear that's the case. I mean, I was
quite amazed at the speech that he gave in Manchester and quite -not quite the
appropriate place to go to engage in sending signals to the IRA, I would have
thought. But, in that speech, earlier this evening, he seemed to be
concerned simply to respond to the IRA and to their demands. I think, what he
should be doing is paying more attention to the eighty-five per cent who are
committed to democratic politics and to concentrate on trying to make sure that
the democratic process produces something for a change, instead of allowing it
to be frustrated by the demands of the IRA.
HUMPHRYS: Are you losing confidence in Sir Patrick
Mayhew?
TRIMBLE: Well, we disagree with his approach.
HUMPHRYS: What's that mean?
TRIMBLE: We disagree with his approach. We think
he's got his priorities wrong and I think he should have as his priorities that
of trying to make sure that the political process succeeds, rather than having
us as priority, trying to induce Sinn Fein to enter the process.
HUMPHRYS: So, so long as he continues to do that -
and, as you say there has been this apparent dialogue between him and Martin
McGuinness of Sinn Fein during these past couple of days, in which they seem to
have agreed on all manner of things, if we're to believe the reports of what
they've been saying - you've got grave reservations?
TRIMBLE: Well, as I say, he's got his-My view is
that he's got his priorities wrong. That's what I told him last week and I
do hope that the Government will get agrip of itself and operate in the real
world.
HUMPHRYS: This is more than just you saying: I
disagree with his approach, isn't it? I mean, what seems to be happening
here is that there is a fundamental difference between you and the British
Government over this whole process?
TRIMBLE: Well, as I started out by saying, I
supported the Government when they launched this process, saying as they did
that they were going to give Sinn Fein the chance to get involved. But, if
Sinn Fein didn't take that chance, by putting in place a ceasefire and
committing themselves to peaceful means in the democratic process then the
talks would go on without them. Now, I think, we've reached that awkward
moment where you have to make a choice.
But rather than actually make the
choice that the circumstances dictate, the Government is dithering. They're
trying to have it both ways, rather than to commit itself to what the situation
cries out for. Now, there is, obviously, a difference of view, a difference of
assessment between ourselves and, apparently, the Government at the moment.
But, to paint that as being a fundamental difference is, I think, pushing it a
little too far.
HUMPHRYS: Well, hang on, I mean, the Government
isn't dithering here, is it? The Government is saying quite clearly: we
believe that peace is still achievable and the way to get that peace is to
include Sinn Fein in this process. The Government's quite clear on its
approach and its aims.
TRIMBLE: Well, I'll remind you of where we were a
few months ago and of the statements by the Government that if Sinn Fein didn't
take the chance that was offered to them by declaring a ceasefire then the
talks would go on without them. And, we're saying to them that in our
assessment that is the situation at the moment and that's what should be done
in terms of the talks. But, the Government just seems reluctant to come to the
obvious conclusion. And, the conclusion is obvious. When you look at the
actions of Sinn Fein and bear in mind also the press reports today indicating
that hardliners - people who are heavily committed to violence and to the
renewed bombing campaign - have been moved into key positions within the IRA,
within recent weeks.
Bear in mind the evidence of the finds
by the Metropolitan Police in London, of the raids made by the IRA in London
within recent weeks and expected, the assessment that's coming from the Police
and the security services that we're in for a period of renewed violence. Now,
these are the realities and there is an element, I'm afraid, within Government
that's having difficulty facing up to these realities and appreciating what
needs to be done.
HUMPHRYS: But surely they have faced up to those
realities. They're not blind to them anymore than you are and they have said,
notwithstanding all of that: we believe that to include Sinn Fein is the way
towards peace. You believe that that isn't?
TRIMBLE: Bear in mind Sinn Fein's demands because
Sinn Fein has made it very clear, in recent weeks, what the price is for their
inclusion in the Talks, namely the dropping of all preconditions, the
acceptance of a time frame, removing the Principle of Consent. If Government
is going to accede to those demands, that means throwing away the provisions
and the legislation that set up the Talks. And, it means that as a result of
IRA violence there will have been massive Government surrenders in terms of
basic principles. Now I think Government needs to think carefully about this -
is that what they're proposing to do? Because if they are, then I think we'll
not have peace but instead renewed violence because the Government will have
demonstrated to Sinn Fein and to others that planting bombs in London,
Manchester, Belfast and Fermanagh has worked. Now that's not the message to
send.
HUMPHRYS: At what stage do you say, there really
isn't any point in proceeding, in going on with this process as it stands -
certainly before the-in the period leading up to the Election? Therefore we
think the whole thing should just be put on hold.
TRIMBLE: Well we're not at that point, despite my
difference of assessment... with the Government as to what we should be doing
at the present moment. We are going to persevere in terms of persuading the
Government to commit itself to serious talks with the present Parties. We will
perservere about that. There may very well come a time when, as you say, the
assessment that you've mentioned - that we can't precede much further this side
of the General Election - may have to be made. But, we haven't reached that
yet.
HUMPHRYS: And at what point do you, as the leader
of a Party that in a sense, holds the balance of power - just about anyway, at
Westminster? Well I know 'just about'-
TRIMBLE: 'Just'. That 'just about anyway'
conceals the fact that we don't!
HUMPHRYS: Alright. But, one vote in it at the
moment, a by-Election coming up. Then there'll - presumably - be no votes in
it. So that's balance of power if ever there was one. At what point do you
say: if this Government is not serving what I believe and my Party believes to
be the best interests of Northern Ireland we will say you have lost our
support, we will do our damnedst to bring this Government down?
TRIMBLE: I can't actually imagine that we would
publicly say that: we will do our damnedst to bring any Government down".
HUMPHRYS: Why not?
TRIMBLE: It may be that the situation will arise
where we will have to decide as, I will imagine, like I expect, that before too
long, issues will arise which involve matters of confidence. We will then make
a choice in the light of the situation then as to whether we have or have not
confidence in the Government.
HUMPHRYS: Why not? Why if you are mostly
concerned, as the leader of the Ulster Unionists with the future of Northern
Ireland, why would you never say: but hang on this Government isn't doing what
we think is right and proper for Northern Ireland? Why might you never say, so
therefore the next logical step is to bring them down? Isn't the reality that
you can't do that because the alternative, a possible Labour Government might
be even worse.
TRIMBLE: Well, I don't have a crystal ball and so
I don't know what the alternatives will be. There may be circumstances where
we would vote against the Government on a confidence issue - yes, indeed.
HUMPHRYS: At what stage?
TRIMBLE: I can't tell you that, I don't have a
crystal ball.
HUMPHRYS: But if there were to be a confidence
issue next week for instance would you say: right, that's it we'll vote against
'em?
TRIMBLE: Well if there is a confidence issue next
week, then, we'll consider it. I mean we're not going to be scared of taking
decisions on this as we demonstrated this week with our vote on the issue of
BSE, where we took that vote knowing that it could in turn trigger off a
confidence vote if the Government lost it because Labour might have put a
confidence vote down. So if the situation arises we'll take decisions and
we'll take decisions in the light of our assessment of the situation.
HUMPHRYS: David Trimble, thanks very much indeed.
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