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ON THE RECORD
MAASTRICHT DISCUSSION
RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 14.3.93
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JONATHAN DIMBLEBY: That was John Rentoul reporting on the
divided passions in the Conservative Party. And with me now - arch Euro rebel
Bill Cash; arch Euro enthusiast Steve Milligan and, in the middle of that
sandwich, Euro unifier, Sir John Wheeler.
First of all Stephen Milligan to you.
Listening to that it suggests that putting the frighteners on the consituency
parties was a pretty bad idea.
STEPHEN MILLIGAN MP: Well, could I just begin by correcting
one point in your film, because you suggested in the film that those of us
who are supporters of Europe and the Party are very unhappy with the Prime
Minister's tactics - that is not the case.
DIMBLEBY: We'll come on to that. Let's stick with
this first on all though. You'll certainly have a chance to make....Let's if
we can... various tactics... on the approach, what's your view? Was it
counterproductive?
MILLIGAN: I don't think it's counterproductive. I
think there are a lot of people in the constituencies who are not enthusiastic
for Maastricht but are fed up with the delay; fed up with some much
concentration going on the debate on Maastrict when there are so many other
issues - the rise in crime, the state of the economy - which they feel we
should be dealing with and I notice in my own constituency, even amongst people
who are not Euro enthusiasts, they are fed up with the divisions in the Party;
they are fed up with the delays in getting this Treaty through and I think
they are very sympathetic to what the Prime Minister's trying to do.
DIMBLEBY: And the Bill Cash's are to blame?
MILLIGAN: Yes they are, yes they are.
DIMBLEBY: Bill Cash - no loyalty, no sense of
duty, no sense of proportion in holding up the proper business of Parliament.
WILLIAM CASH MP: Well, first of all this is a matter of
national interest and indeed a matter of national conscience. The second thing
is, if you heard Norman Fowler on the Today programme only this week he was
saying that the timetable wasn't being held up because after all these things
were all going on in the Lords and everything was...
DIMBLEBY: He also said you shouldn't dine a la
carte if your a loyal member of the Party.
CASH: Yes. Well, if you look at the Exchange
Rate Mechanism which was the central plank of our economic strategy in the
manifesto, the fact that we got out - which we were very glad about but despite
consistent denials by the Prime Minister and by the Chancellor of the Exchequer
that we would - demonstrates our point. We were proved right as indeed we have
been over a number of other matters.
DIMBLEBY: Isn't there an element of truth Sir John
in what Bill Cash says. To this extent - that the strategy of talking tough
had the effect of increasing not reducing the number of rebels. Go on like
this and the whole Party will be against Maastricht.
SIR JOHN WHEELER MP: Well, of course, much of the strategy of
talking tough is exaggerated by the media industry which loves to build up a
drama.
DIMBLEBY: Exaggerated by that lot in Reigate, like
the Chairman saying bully-boy tactics.
WHEELER: Well, we ought to be just a little
cautious before we leap into every statement and assume that it represents
exactly what is going on. The truth, of course, is always a good deal
different and the fact of the matter is that we have an ancient and honourable
Parliamentary democracy and a Party in the Conservative Party in which debate
and argument is always alive. Always will be, I hope, otherwise there'll be no
point in having either a Parliament or a Party. But at the end of the day,
when this issue is over, all Parliamentary members of the Party will come
together as they are united on other issues now.
DIMBLEBY: But meanwhile the issue continues. You
have, according to a survey done by I think a hundred and forty four
constituency parties, for Week in Politics for Channel Four, that half the
constituency Party Chairmen think that the Government is handling this
thoroughly badly. Forty per cent of them don't want Maastricht to be ratified.
So what do you do now?
WHEELER: People, of course, are frustrated about
the debate going on over a long period of time, but it's inevitable with an
issue of this kind that it would and remember the debate is every bit as strong
within the ranks of the Labour Party as it is within the ranks of the Liberal
Party. There's one Liberal MP who doesn't vote with the majority of the
Liberal MPs. So there are real divisions of cross parties.
DIMBLEBY: Come on, Sir John. It's hardly thought
to be the core of the problem. That is not one of your best efforts on that
kind of front.
WHEELER: It's a jolly good one though.
DIMBLEBY: Do you care Bill Cash about humiliating
the Prime Minister?
CASH: It's not a question of that, as I've
said, it is a matter of national interest and you've got to remember that this
thing goes back over a fair way of time. I have, myself, always been very much
in favour of the European Community. I voted for the Single European Act and I
would do so again.
DIMBLEBY: But you are humiliating him, aren't you?
CASH: Well I ...
DIMBLEBY: You are putting him in an impossible
position?
CASH: I don't think that is so and in fact if
you look at the position, for example, of the Danish Prime Minister over the
Danish Referendum, he obviously put his weight behind it. It is a
controversial issue. In Denmark it was turned down, but he didn't feel it
necessary to resign and I think that really that speaks volumes for the
situation, as far as we are concerned.
DIMBLEBY: Stephen Milligan, is Peter Temple-Morris
right to believe that the Prime Minister is being damaged by this.
MILLIGAN: Well, the whole Government is being
damaged, not just in terms of its image but in terms of its programme, because
of the amount of time that's been spent on this. We've already spent three
months debating Maastricht and we're only half way through. And it means to
say there isn't time to discuss other matters like crime, unemployment, the
rest of the Government's programme. So, yes the Government is being damaged
but simply because it doesn't have the time to do all the other measures that
need to be discussed.
CASH: I really must come in on that actually
Stephen because, quite apart from what I said Norman Fowler said the other day,
the fact is the Whips determine the timetable and it's well known that the
Procedure Committee, for example, wanted to end business at ten o'clock and the
reality is that we are merely debating at some length, but because it's so
important, issues which have been properly selected by the Chairman of Ways and
Means -a nd I can't believe that you would seriously want the British nation
not to know what the truth is, particularly as we've had no free vote and no
White Paper.
MILLIGAN: No, no this is complete nonsense. The
fact is the Whips don't determine it because there's been a majority as we've
found this week when there was a majority against the Whips. The Whips
wanted to go on.
You have been delaying the whole time,
having very long debates, voting against closure motions, trying to obstruct in
every way possible so the Government is not able to get its programme through
and it's not correct to say the Whips can simply have their way, because
they're not having their way.
CASH: I didn't say that, I said they determine
the timetable.
DIMBLEBY: Sir John, who's right on that point of
substance between them? Is Bill Cash and his gang holding it up? Or is Steve
Milligan and his gang getting too hot around the collar?
WHEELER: Well, there's a bit of both isn't there?
The fact of the matter is there's been over a hundred hours of debate on the
Amendment Bill; the Government is making very satisfactory progress; it is
getting through much of its legislation; but it is also true there are some
pieces of legislation that it might have introduced into this Parliamentary
session that will slip into the next one. To that extent, there is this
frustration. I think there's a greater degree of boredom by the majority of
people in the Parliamentary Party and in the House as a whole because of the
need to devote so much time to this issue, because what is clear is that there
is a majority in the Conservative Party in the House (as there is a majority in
the House itself) to pass this legislation.
DIMBLEBY: OK. Now given that that is the case and
the code in that is it would be a jolly good thing if it didn't take as long as
it's taking...
CASH: Could I say - Jonathan, you can't say,
nor can Jonathan say, that this is... John say, that this is simply something
which, you know, is being very boring and taking a long time. We haven't even
got to economic monetary union yet and that deals with the principle of whether
or not, even in stage two, we would effectively move towards handing over our
own monetary affairs and that's the voters rights to choose.
DIMBLEBY: OK. Now let me...
CASH: .. to unelected, unaccountable bankers.
It's a very important principle.
DIMBLEBY: It's well known that if you can make it
go on as long as you can, that's your tactic. I'm not debating whether that's
right or wrong...
CASH: That is not the purpose - the purpose is
to debate it properly.
DIMBLEBY: Forgive me, it's the effect and what I
want to ask you, therefore, under those circumstances of Stephen Milligan - do
you believe that the Government should.. can afford to ignore the rebels in the
ranks or has the Prime Minister got to come out as someone as suggesting
they've got to come out fighting?
MILLIGAN: Well, I don't think there's any chance
of wooing the rebels over. I mean, Norman Tebbit has been admirably frank
about this. He said they will vote to say the moon is made of blue cheese if
that would delay the Treaty. They will stop at nothing. Bill says there's
got to be a proper debate. Well, of course, he's already spoken for six hours
- I don't how much longer he's going on to speak. If you want proper debate, I
don't think that's the way to do it - to drag it out.
DIMBLEBY: So what does the Government do to get
out of a hole?
MILLIGAN: Well, the problem the Government is in,
and you've talked about the tactics and the difficulties this week, don't just
have to do with the rebels - they have to do with the voting on the Opposition
benches. Now, there is a large majority in the House of Commons in favour of
this Treaty. The Labour Party says they're in favour of it, the Liberals say
they're in favour of it, but they've not been willing to support the Government
in the lobbies, because as George Robertson said in your film, they've taken
every opportunity to do damage to the Government. So the Government's got to
consider them as well as the rebels on their own benches if it's to get this
Treaty through.
DIMBLEBY: Now, given that the Labour Party and the
Liberals are going to play the game right the way through to cause as much
trouble as they can, that suggests that the Government is going to have to face
losing more amendmends and is actually going to have to endure for as long as
Bill Cash and the Labour Party want to keep this going.
MILLIGAN: Well, it's obviously going to take a
long time - it's going to take longer because of the amendment that was passed
this week, which means that we'll have a report stage, which is a scope for
more delaying tactics. Now, I think it's important to remember that, for
example, the Liberal Party supports the Maastricht Treaty. I think the
Government's got to try and hold on to their principles. I don't think you're
going to convert Bill Cash - he's made his position very clear. But the
Liberals and many of the Labour Party say they're in favour of it. And if they
believe the interests of the country are more important than Party politics,
we've got to hold them to their principles.
CASH: Well, it certainly isn't true to say,
just like that if I may say so Stephen - it's a question of putting the country
first. Bear in mind this is a European issue; bear in mind that only
thirty-six per cent of the French people actually voted for Maastricht; bear
in mind the Danes have turned it down; there is very deep disturbance in
Germany. The fact is the political landscape has changed. As the Prime
Minister said when he was interviewed by Nick Lloyd with regard to the Exchange
Rate Mechanism, when circumstances change you change with them, and I say that
the circumstances have so changed regarding Maastricht that this thing should
be dumped.
DIMBLEBY: Now, given that, Sir John, wouldn't
there be a way through potentially if (given changed circumstances that are
alleged by Bill Cash) the Government was flexible about the idea of a
Referendum.
WHEELER: What an awful and expensive diversion
that would be, and how pointless it would be. Treaties are negotiated by
Governments, not by Parliaments. Parliaments may have to approve the principle
of them. There would be no point in a Referendum - the Referendum wouldn't be
about Maastricht, it would be about almost anything else that was in the minds
of the individual voter at the time.
DIMBLEBY: If the Government were, Bill Cash, to
offer a Referendum, would that buy off, as it were, in favour of a Referendum,
significant chunks of your people?
CASH: Well, the suggestion that was made in
the papers this morning, that we might have one in the next Parliament about a
single currency, is just simply not a runner at all, but we do want a
Referendum. Seventy-three per cent of the British people in the most recent
Mori poll have said so. They've had them in other countries as well, and the
fact is that the constitutional precedence for a Referendum with regard to
Northern Ireland, Wales, Scotland and the EC, are overwhelming. There's a lot
of bunkum being talked about the fact that it would not be consistent with our
Parliamentary democracy. It has to be passed by an Act of Parliament.
DIMBLEBY: If you don't get one and if this
acrimony and bitterness continues and intensifies, as it is bound to do if
there are more amendments lost, Bill Cash .... just one second Sir John ... do
you care if you, in effect, bring the Government to its knees, not that it's
put out of power, but it lacks all credibility? Does that worry you?
CASH: Well, we're certainly not doing that.
What we're doing is debating this issue which is of great importance and, in
fact, this Referendum campaign which I started up with others, in fact, has
gained enormous support.
DIMBLEBY: OK. Let me just ask you, Stephen
Milligan. Can the Government endure losing one amendment after another,
leading up to the Social Chapter amendment?
MILLIGAN: It can, provided they're not
Treaty-wrecking amendments. There have been some amendments put forward - a
lot put forward by Bill and his friends - which are deliberately designed to
wreck the Treaty by any manner of means. Some of these small amendments that
the Labour Party are putting forward - saying there should be a report back, a
report back on this - are very minor changes, designed to cause difficulties
for the Government but not designed to wreck the Treaty. Provided the Treaty
is approved, that is the main objective; that's what we want.
DIMBLEBY: And Sir John, may I put it to you what a
lot of the public might be thinking, and this is supposed - I suspect - in
their mind - and this is supposed to be a Party of Government?
WHEELER: There isn't acrimony and bitterness
between members of the Parliamentary Party.
DIMBLEBY: You mean there's love and brotherhood
between Bill Cash and Stephen Milligan?
WHEELER: No. Allow me to use my words. There is
Parliamentary friendship between people who are engaged in an honest debate.
At the end of the day, the Conservative Parliamentary Party will be reunited as
never before. The truth of the matter is there is a majority in the House for
Maastricht, and the majority will have its way eventually.
DIMBLEBY: Sir John, thank you. Stephen Milligan,
thank you. Bill Cash, thank you.
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