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ON THE RECORD
RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 2.5.93
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JONATHAN DIMBLEBY: Good afternoon and welcome to On The
Record. The news from Athens must give cautious hope that the Bosnian horror
may at last be coming to an end, but as so often in the past, it could yet
prove another cruel delusion. In this programme we'll be seeking to assess the
import of this morning's dramatic announcement.
The apparent success of the 'last chance
peace talks', is that the leader of the Bosnian Serbs has agreed to the
so-called Vance/Owen plan for the division of Bosnia between its warring
peoples. But the deal is dependent on the endorsement of that mercurial and
obstinate body, which calls itself the Bosnia Serb Parliament, and that meets
on Wednesday.
Meanwhile, the American Secretary of
State, Warren Christopher, has arrived in London to see John Major. His
purpose: to persuade the Prime Minister to accept President Clinton's proposals
for military action by the UN against the Serbs in Bosnia, if the settlement,
as has happened before, collapses. We'll be examining the hazards of imposing
peace by force of arms. To help us, the representatives of the Serbian and the
Bosnian people, here in London,
DIMBLEBY: With me now, Radjko Bogojevic, who's the
Charge D'Affaires of the rump Yugoslavia, which embraces Serbia and Montenegro,
and the head of the Bosnian Information Centre in London, soon to become an
Embassy I think, Mamon Nahas. Mr. Bogojevic, can I ask you first. We've been
here before, we've seen what the Serbs in Bosnia do. What makes you able to
convince US that it won't be the same story again?
RADJKO BOGOJEVIC: I hope the Bosnian Serbs, as Mr.
Karadzic signed the plan, I mean the Parliament of the Bosnian Serbs, will
accept it in full, because they are faced with the alternative, and we know
that alternative is a disaster for all people in Bosnia. That's why I'm
optimistic and I do believe they will accept it.
DIMBLEBY: Is the decisive factor in this, in your
judgement, that Milosevic has changed under the external pressure of sanctions,
and is saying Serbia can't stand this, you've got to stop?
BOGOJEVIC: Of course partly, but also Bosnian Serbs
are faced with a lot of threats. As you know from the possible military
intervention and whatever it is, so that's why those two factors are the most
important, but I would also like to add that it would be of crucial importance,
parallely, to start lifting the sanctions against the Federal Republic of
Yugoslavia, because to convince those people over there, especially those who
are favouring peaceful solutions, to support those efforts to those means.
DIMBLEBY: Mr. Nahas do the Muslims, do you
believe, yes, this is now peace?
MAMON NAHAS: First of all the word "Muslims". We are
presenting the Government of Bosnia Herzegovina, which include the Serbs,
Croats, Muslims, Jews, all other people inside. That means I'm not speaking
about Muslim, let's to be clear. Secondly, what we got now, we got signature
of Mr. Karadzic on a paper. The most important thing - what after that, what
tomorrow will bring. Two hundred thousand people have been killed because...
just to come to a signature. We believe that Mr. Milosevic from Belgrade
already gave his orders and Karadzic signed. What we want now - the plan to be
forced, implementation of the plan.
DIMBLEBY: But do you accept what Mr.
Bogojevic is saying is that the combination of pressures now means that in
reality the Parliament, the Serbian Parliament in Bosnia, will accept and that
the deal will stick?
NAHAS: Well, the Parliament, what's called
Serbian Parliament in Pale, it's a part of a big plan. They will sign it
because Milosevic give his orders. They will not reject anything. Yesterday
they objected; last week, yesterday they said maybe we will accept it, today
they accept it, this only... they will accept it.
DIMBLEBY: Mr. Bogojevic, even if they accept it,
there is no faith from Mr. Nahas that the war will actually stop because the
Bosnian Serbs are not within the control of the Parliament, let alone the Serbs
in Serbia.
BOGOJEVIC: We are not speaking only about Bosnian
Serbs. We are faced with a civil war in Bosnia - three parties are deeply
involved in a civil war in Bosnia, so it depends very much on the Muslims and
Croats if we wish to see a peace plan.
DIMBLEBY: But come on, with great respect, it may
be a civil war but a civil war in which there's been a deal signed up for by
the Croats, by the Muslims for now a very long time, what's holding up is the
fact that the Bosnian Serbs want to go on occupying more territory, ethnically
cleansing, doing whatever they want to do to secure that territory. YOU have
to be able to persuade THEM if we're going to have much prospect of peace, that
this time it means something.
BOGOJEVIC: You know that is partly true but also
Bosnian Croats and Muslims committed a lot of crimes as well, so it's also
important to convince Bosnian Serbs that those atrocities from the Croatian and
Muslim sides are not going to last.
DIMBLEBY: Do you expect now, if there is a decision
by the Bosnian Serb Parliament in favour of the deal on Wednesday, do you
expect there to be in place then - and would it be possible for the Serbs to
guarantee a ceasefire - no more advancing?
BOGOJEVIC: Yes, I hope so.
DIMBLEBY: You hope so?
BOGOJEVIC: Yes.
DIMBLEBY: What makes you only hope?
BOGOJEVIC: Because you know, in Bosnia we have so
many different armies and soldiers fighting there, so in trying to revenge from
previous, you know.
DIMBLEBY: And they might well say, might they not,
we have by force of arms, by spilling blood all over the place, secured all
this territory. We're not going to get out and lose that thirty per cent that
we've fought for?
BOGOJEVIC: You know the fact is that Bosnian Serbs
are private owners of sixty four per cent of the territory of Bosnia
Herzegovina - that is a fact, nobody denies it. So they are not aggressive,
they are not trying to take something that is not theirs.
DIMBLEBY: Mr. Nahas, if the Parliament is going to
accept, what do you want to see happen now to make it more likely that the
peace emerges and the ceasefire occurs?
NAHAS: Listen. Mr. Karadzic put his sign and
yesterday eight people have been killed in Sarajevo, fifteen injured. That
means even that day, that night, when they're putting they're signatures for a
peace plan, they're killing people. We want to see no more killing, we want
peace in Bosnia.
DIMBLEBY: And what do you want from the UN?
NAHAS: We want immediately the UN forces to
come in implementing this peace plan; we want to see this big guns stop
shelling the cities; we want to see the humanitarian aid going without
permission from the Serbs to go to the people dying from hunger; we want to
see a little peace in Bosnia after thirteen months of non-stop killing
innocent people.
DIMBLEBY: You see the UN might well say - given
the reluctance of the Western Governments to put their troops on the ground -
might well say "we will go into police but only once we can see that the
ceasefire is holding".
NAHAS: It depends on Mr. Milosevic who's giving
his orders to all these who has guns in Bosnia, to stop killing, to stop
shelling. They are always saying all our soldiers our own control. That
means within twenty four hours all the orders must be given to their people -
stop killing. Then it's a ceasefire and we'll have the UN to work.
DIMBLEBY: You would agree with that?
BOGOJEVIC: Yes, but it is not Mr. Milosevic who is
giving orders to Bosnian Serbs. They are fighting on their territories, there
is all different people living there for centuries you know, and so they're
fighting for their territories.
NAHAS: Then why is the sanctions against
Serbia now? Why is the tanks of the Serbian soldiers inside Bosnia?
BOGOJEVIC: Not at all, that is why we are very much
worried because of the sanctions. We think those sanctions are very
unjustified. Because Yugoslavia is not a part of the civil war in Bosnia
Herzegovina.
DIMBLEBY: But without the sanctions there'd have
been precious little prospect of getting where we've got to today.
BOGOJEVIC: Yes, but pressure should be put on all
three sides in Bosnia, warring sides in Bosnia, and besides, in accordance
with the Vance/Owen plan there is forty five days after the signature and after
the UN resolution for those three parties to withdraw to their territories.
DIMBLEBY: Forty five days. Neither of you sound,
I may say, very optimistic?
BOGOJEVIC: Yes I do. I do believe that they will
reach a final agreement - peace-wise.
NAHAS: We will meet here after forty five days
to see how much people will be killed within these forty five days, how much
problems will get up or not to implement this plan. The sign of Mr. Karadzic
on that paper for us yet means nothing, because we don't believe him, as well
as I think most of the world don't believe his signature on this paper. We want
immediate implementation of the plan.
DIMBLEBY: We shall see. Mr. Nahas, thank you.
Mr. Bogojevic thank you too.
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