................................................................................
ON THE RECORD
RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 19.6.94
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JOHN HUMPHRYS: Good afternoon. Three weeks to go
before the Labour Party votes for a new leader and the cracks between the
candidates are beginning to show. I'll be talking to Margaret Beckett and
suggesting to her that she's the only real left-winger still in the race.
That's On the Record, after the news read by Chris Lowe.
NEWS
HUMPHRYS: Hello again. They told us this was
going to be the Labour leadership contest where we wouldn't be able to spot the
difference between the candidates, at least not as far as policy is concerned.
Were they wrong? Well we had John Presoctt on this programme last week setting
out an agenda clearly different in important respects from Tony Blair's. And
we've heard Margaret Beckett giving the marauding Tory tabloids a bit of red
meat to chew on. I'll be talking to her live here in Birmingham where she's
been chairing the Labour Party's National Policy Forum - what are her policies?
*******Report*******
HUMPHRYS: Well, Margaret Beckett, now that you've
got people like Gordon Brown nominating you for the Deputy Leadership, isn't
that what you ought to be concentrating on, Blair and Beckett the dream ticket?
MARGARET BECKETT MP: No I don't think so. I am the leader of
the Party, I believe that I have demonstrated and am demonstrating every day
that I'm perfectly capable of being the Leader of the Party and would do a
thoroughly good job and I believe most of all that I can unite the Party and
provide that breadth of experience that will help to take us forward and help
us to win the next election. I also think I've got the right strategy for
taking on the Government which is of course rather another matter.
HUMPHRYS: You say you can unite the Party but if
we look as we did in that film at the sort of people who nominated you for the
Leadership, the Shadow Cabinet was noticeably absent. Now you've always
expressed great confidence in them, they haven't expressed confidence in you
for the Leadership, be very difficult for you to lead them would it not?
BECKETT: No I don't believe so and in any case I
think my impression is certainly that most of the Shadow Cabinet were signed up
by other candidates at a time when they were being told by the news media I
wasn't even in the field. Now that may or may not have made a difference but
it's certainly a fact.
HUMPHRYS: So they really want you but the names
weren't on that list.
BECKETT: I'm not saying that, I say it may
not have made a difference. What I am saying is that the overwhelming
presumption in the news media was that of course it had to be Tony. Now I
don't dispute that of course Tony has to be considered. He's a very
significant figure in the Party but whether he has to be the leader I think is
something now for the Party to judge. The campaign after all has only just
begun. What we've had now are nominations. You need enough nominations to be
validally placed before the Party as a candidate but the campaign as I say is
only just beginning.
HUMPHRYS: But you wouldn't say just for a moment
that your colleagues in the Shadow Cabinet are so naive as to be goaled by us
in the media in deciding who they're going to nominate for the leadership of
their Party.
BECKETT: I'm not suggesting anything. I'm merely
stating a fact. We had a barrage of publicity that said that I would not be
running. I could have tried to counter that of course
HUMPHRYS: .... said I will be.
BECKETT: Yes I could but that would have been at
the cost to the Party of a focus on our leadership when we should have been
focusing on beating the Tories in the Euro elections and the by-elections and I
took an absolutely clear and conscious decision that even if it sacrificed my
own interests in this contest, the important thing to do for the Party was to
put those elections first and that's what I did, and I don't regret it and I
don't resile from it in any way whatever its consequences.
HUMPHRYS: So let's have a look at those MPs who
have nominated you, nearly all as we saw in that film, nearly all the members
are of the campaign group. Without their support, well eighteen out of twenty
six that's a fairly hefty number isn't it.
BECKETT: That's about perhaps less than half of
those who've nominated me.
HUMPHRYS: No, no but I said nearly all the members
of the campaign group and that's ...
BECKETT: I'm very happy to have had those
nominations by the way.
HUMPHRYS: Indeed and nearly all of the others
apart from those who are members of the campaign are firmly on the left of the
Party, so that tells us a great deal doesn't it about where you stand
politically within the Party.
BECKETT: I hope so because what I hope it tells
you is that I have my origins and my roots in the left of the Party and that I
can work with as I have very successfully over these last years every strand of
opinion within the Party. I hadn't heard Ken Livingstone say before what he
said on your film but I was, if I may say so, rather touched and very pleased
by what he said because he's right. I don't let anybody else pick my friends
and I don't let anyone else pick my opinions. I try always to decide what I
think is right for the Party on the merits of the case and then if I think it's
a cause that has to be fought I fight for it. I don't start off by thinking,
"will this make me popular".
HUMPHRYS: What he said was in part that she has
never repudiated us on the left. You are clearly of the left and that's where
you stand and that's where you stay.
BECKETT: I've never repudiated anybody in the
Labour Party. I work with people successfully. Don't forget for two years
as Deputy Leader I've been exercising a leadership role in running our
campaigns. John Smith was a delegator and what he said to me was "I want you
to take full responsibility for all our campaigning and act with my full
authority" and basically it was sort of don't bother me unless you need to, and
I didn't. And in that capacity I have brought into the Committee structure to
the campaigning structure of the Party MPs of different views from every shade
of the Party. Some of them by the way people who don't altogether like each
other very much. Certainly people of very different shades of view but if
they've got something to offer in the campaigning work of the Party I've
brought them in and we've worked successfully together, and that's part of what
I'm saying to you, people don't have to wonder what I'd be like as Leader, they
know. I worked alongside John Smith, we worked together because he was like
that. In appointing the Front Bench team, in deciding how a portfolio should
go in the Shadow Cabinet. I was part of that discussion and part of that
decision making so people have a record that they can see.
HUMPHRYS: Very very different between working
alongside John Smith and actually leading the Party of course.
BECKETT: Indeed
HUMPHRYS: ... becoming Prime Minister, a lot Ken
Livingstone clearly believes and his friends on the left is that you are of
them and your policies are of them.
BECKETT: What he's saying is that I have strong
principles and that I have the toughness to fight for those principles in
Government as well as out. I think that's quite a compliment.
HUMPHRYS: I think he's going a bit further than
that isn't he.
BECKETT: Well I think you better ask him.
HUMPHRYS: Well we did...
BECKETT: Let's not get into..
HUMPHRYS: This is important..
BECKETT: Let's not get too many...
HUMPHRYS: No, but it's important the difference
between principles and policies can be very important and clearly Ken
Livingstone believes and the other campaign group members, the eighteen
out of the twenty six who nominated you clearly believe that you will support
their policies.
BECKETT: What Ken said and what is certainly true
is that I came into politics out of my own experience and out of what I'd
observed at the experience of others to fight for people who, and actually this
is something John Smith said to me not long before he died. "Why would anyone
be in politics if it isn't to fight for people who don't find it easy to fight
and to win for themselves". That is why I am in politics and that is why I
would be in politics as Leader and Prime Minister, and yes that would be my
priority.
HUMPHRYS: And that's a very broad statement of
principle with which I suspect nobody in your party would agree...however....
would disagree. However, when it comes down to specific policies then it's
different isn't it, as you've said there are very different voices, very
different opinions within the Party. They believe that you are of the left.
BECKETT: Yes
HUMPHRYS: And that's important.
BECKETT: Oh that's fine.
HUMPHRYS: That's fine?
BECKETT: Yes.
HUMPHRYS: You are of the Left? Quite clearly of
the Left...
BECKETT: I haven't been seeking to dispute that
I've merely been seeking to clarify what it means.
HUMPHRYS: So that your policies are in line with
those espoused by the campaign group.
BECKETT: Well I wouldn't in any sense say..I have
never let anybody decide for me what my policies are or what my views are.
There may be some occasions on which I agree with the campaign group, there are
others on which I disgree with them, I am after all no longer a member of that
group because of the occasions on which I disagreed with them. What they're
saying is they think my heart's in the right place and I've also got a head to
go with it.
HUMPHRYS: Well they may be saying rather more than
that may they not, they may be saying we believe that if anybody is going to
push the Left's agenda in Number Ten Downing Street it's going to be Margaret
Beckett, that's what they're saying isn't it.
BECKETT: Well again, I think you go back to them
to ask exactly what they're saying. But what I am saying is that I believe
that I can unite all shades of opinion within the party, I believe that I have
shown that I can do that and it's part of my approach to things, it always has
been to want to take all shades of opinion, to want to hear other people's
points of view and this is again is just how..this is one of the reasons why
John Smith and I got on as people who work together because that was very much
his approach. He didn't say oh X is in that wing of the party therefore they
have nothing valuable and valid to say to me and I will ignore them; he was
always conscious of the fact that everybody has something to contribute.
HUMPHRYS: So you will decide on your policies and
steer them through...
BECKETT: No, hang on a minute, in the Labour
Party the whole party and the movement makes policy, the leader has a voice and
of course it's an important voice and sometimes the leader has to make what can
be quite difficult decisions as to the balance of where those choices lie - but
we make policy together.
HUMPHRYS: So you would sit in Downing Street
waiting for the party machine to tell you what policies to follow.
BECKETT: You know that's not what I'm saying, the
framework of party policy in the Labour Party is decided democratically with
the voice er, through various channels of literally millions of ordinary
working men and women in this country. I actually think that's a rather more
valuable source of advice, information and support than the narrow base that
the Conservative Party draws on at the present time.
HUMPHRYS: So, to be quite clear about this, if the
party conference decides on a particular policy, that is the policy you would
go along with as Prime Minister.
BECKETT: It's always been..it is actually the
constitution of the party and it's always been the practice of the party, that
the party conference sets the framework and shape of policy and gives advice -
sometimes extremely strong advice - to the parliamentary party and to the
leadership of the party. But that it is the job of the parliamentary party,
that's what they are elected to do to see how they can work within the
framework of that overall shape of policy. And of course within the
parliamentary party it's the particular responsibility of the leader and the
Prime Minister as it may be and the Cabinet to see what the detail is of how
they advance, there's no difficulty about that, people have see it work in
practice in successful Labour governments throughout this century - and
incidentally - they've seen it work in practice in Labour governments that
delivered a better growth record than the present one, better inflation record
in some respects, and a better employment record unquestionably than the
present one, so I don't think we need to get too much into the details of this.
Everyone know what the structure of the Labour Party is and I have no
difficulty with it.
HUMPHRYS: So you would stay within the framework
of policy as defined by..as agreed upon, by party conference.
BECKETT: You always work within the framework of
policy but it's for the Prime Minister and the Cabinet to decide what their
priorities are, what they can pursue at the present time, the time-scale on
which they can pursue it and so on - it always has been.
HUMPHRYS: But if party conference is very very
clear about a particular issue decides...
BECKETT: Then you have to take it into account of
course.
HUMPHRYS: Then you have to take it into account,
you have to go with it, ultimately you have to go with it.
BECKETT: You have to take it into account, you
have to listen to all the voices. Look the problem we've got in Britain at the
present time is that we've got a government that doesn't listen to anybody, now
within the framework of the Labour Party we're fortunate that we have the
chance to listen to and draw on the experience of millions of people. But
also, of course, you have to listen to people outside some of the areas on
which party conference advices, are areas in which we have a lesser range of
expertise than in others. So you have to draw on whole groups of people, one
of the things I want to see us do, one of the things I'd like to see every
government doing, even this one, is trying to create a greater consensus of
opinion, greater support for the kind of changes you want to see.
I think that what's happening in Britain
at the moment is that people can see that there are important areas where we
need change, but they're afraid of it because what they've seen is a government
ridden roughshod over their opinions, their understanding, their experience,
for fifteen years. We've got a government that doesn't govern well because
they don't think it matters how they govern, they'll still be re-elected. Now
I want to change that so that doesn't just mean working within although
obviously your own basis in your party movement. It doesn't mean just working
with the Labour Party in the movement, it means drawing in voluntary groups, it
means drawing in business people, small businesses as well as just the big
players who normally hog the headlines.
HUMPHRYS: Right, but on truly fundamental key
issues, that go right to the heart of the governnments of Britain...
BECKETT: There will be no difference between a
government led by Margaret Beckett and listening to the Labour Party as well as
to others than there was between myself and.....
HUMPHRYS: So if conference tells you, as it has
very very very clearly you must cut..a Labour government must cut defence
expenditure to the level of the European average you would respect that and
you'd behave accordingly.
BECKETT: I do indeed respect it but I'm very glad
you asked me that because I think it's an extremely good example of what I'm
trying to say to you. I do very much respect that and I completely understand
the feeling that drives it, the feeling that there is a tremendous opportunity
which is being taken in every country in the world to reduce the burden of
spending on armaments. But I've never been attracted and I have always said
this frankly to friends and colleages who advocated this point of view, I've
never been attracted to that mechanistic approach, to deciding what level of
defence spending there should be. For a start, it seems to be based on the
assumption that defence spending elsewhere will always be lower, what happens
if for example France shoves up its defence spending through the roof and
totally distorts those figures and therefore are we now saying that we will
push up Britain's defence spending, even if it doesn't respond to our defence
needs, so I don't think that's actually the right approach and I never have
thought so.
HUMPHRYS: This is party policy very clearly.
BECKETT: Yes, so it's a very very good example of
exactly what I'm saying to you: you work within the framework of what is
decided. I understand...
HUMPHRYS: You're telling you would NOT work within
the framework of this particular policy.
BECKETT: Are you going to let me tell you what
I'm saying?
HUMPHRYS: Yes, I'm listening to you very carefully
but I'm trying to be very clear about this...
BECKETT: I always try to be crystal clear John
because I'm always prepared to be judged on what I actually say without
necessarily being judged on how it's interpreted. I don't think that that is
the way to pursue it, I don't think..of course it can be a guideline, of course
it's sensible to say if all these other people can properly defend themselves
and still spend a far less proportion of their nation's wealth, how do we
justify what we spend. Let's look at what we spend and see whether we're
wasting a lot of money on admirals who don't do anything, if I may say so, with
respect to admirals; let's see whether there's waste of money that doesn't have
to be spent, that if when we look at it we discover that there isn't waste or
that the money that is spent can be better spent and Britain's defence needs
require spending more, then I am prepared to see that greater spending.
If France doesn't want to spend as much
that's a matter for France, but Britain's defence needs should be decided after
a proper defence review by Britain and we shouldn't be bound by a formula that
is..that comes from other people, that has always been my view.
HUMPHRYS: In other words you also shouldn't be
bound by party conference, and what you've been saying as I understood it,
perhaps I have misunderstood you throughout this campaign is that the party
decides policy. We are all committed - you said it to me a few days ago as a
matter of fact - "to the policies of our party". What you're saying on this
particular, very important issue, is, "No, I'm not committed to that".
BECKETT: No. What I'm saying to you is exactly
what I said to you when we began this part of the conversation, which is that
the signals that come from the party conference are enormously important.
HUMPHRYS: That's all they are, signals?
BECKETT: No. Those signals are saying in this
respect: why do we spend more than say France and Germany?
HUMPHRYS: ......
BECKETT: That is exactly what they're saying.
They say, "How do you justify the fact"? We must justify it and unless it
can be justified we should be spending as little of our national wealth as they
do, and I'm saying to you, I respect that and I accept wholly that the case we
have to justify if we're going to go on spending more than say the European
average, we have to justify that in relation to Britain's defence needs, but I
have never thought that that is the right way to decide what we spend. What we
spend should depend on what Britain's defence needs are.
HUMPHRYS: You've made that very clear, but I
suspect, indeed I am quite convinced that if you went back to those thirty odd
- what forty-two people nominated you - forty-two MPs who nominated you
altogether - if you went back to thirty-seven, thirty-eight, thirty-nine of
them and said "What's your view on this?" they would say absolutely clear,
"Conference has spoken, that is the policy of the party there is no question
about. And it isn't just a signal, it isn't saying, "Please Mrs Becket when
you are Prime Minister have another look at this". It is saying, "Mrs Becket
this is an instruction from the party to cut our defence spending by some
billions of pounds". You're now saying, even though you said earlier in the
campaign, "We abide by the policies of our party" - you're now saying "No, no,
no, no, I will bear it in mind, but then I'm going to do what I think is
right".
BECKETT: I'm saying what I always said, that it's
part - you see one of my good fortunes is that I've enjoyed many years in the
party, and I've worked at all levels in the party's organisation and in the
party's policy-making and I understand its constitution very well, and I
understand that we have a balance of power between the party conference whose
views are of immense importance.
HUMPHRYS: - it's the supreme policy-making body.
BECKETT: Yes, it is the supreme body that sets
the framework of policy, but also as I said to you at the outset it is the
parliamentary party that works within that framework. I mean we always - our
programme is a programme for twenty years, it's not a programme for one
parliament, so there always has to be choice and a range of view expressed
within it, and if there are those, among those that nominated me who feel that
the view I've just expressed is a view that they don't share, then obviously I
would be sorry about that, but it has never been a secret, and one thing that
all my colleagues know about me is that I am open and honest in what I say and
I stick by what I say and I express my own point of view.
HUMPHRYS: There's certainly no if about it is
there? They would very clearly say, we disagree with you. Would you
incidentally, leave CND if you became Prime Minister, the way that Neil Kinnock
did when he became - eventually when he became leader of the party?
BECKETT: I haven't considered that. I remain in
CND because it's the only organisation that is continuing to work for nuclear
disarmament and as the ownership of nuclear weapons seems to be spreading very
dangerously I do think that campaigning for further nuclear disarmament and for
a sound framework of control of nuclear weapons across the world is extremely
important, but I would leave CND if for example if it became a pacifist
organisation. I didn't agree with CND at the time of the Gulf War to give you
a good example, and there was talk then, I'm not sure how soundly based, but
there was talk that CND ought to be against all wars, and ought to have been
against the Gulf War. I wouldn't stay in it if it took that point of view,
but it didn't in the end.
HUMPHRYS: But as it stands you can live with the
policies of CND can you, and you could if you were in Downing Street?
BECKETT: As it stands I continue to be a member
of CND for two reasons, three if you like. One is because I don't join
organisations lightly and I don't leave them lightly. They are the only
organisation continuing to campaign for nuclear disarmament which I think is
very important, and also they as is often the case with many of these
organisations, they do a great deal of research and interesting theoretical
work and they produce interesting policy makers and my subscription is one
small amount of contribution, financial contribution to that work.
HUMPHRYS: But, you might as well get rid of
Trident now then, because as Prime Minister you would never press the button
would you, if you had to. God forbid that you ever had to, but...
BECKETT: And God forbid that any British prime
minister would ever be asked to press the button.
HUMPHRYS: But you clearly wouldn't so you might as
well get shot of Trident now. Couldn't have a CND member..
BECKETT: Well, I think we have been fast moving
towards a position whereby we might not have any missiles for Trident. Let's
not forget ..
HUMPHRYS: But that's not the point is it?
BECKETT: Well, it might very much be the point.
HUMPHRYS: But let's assume that we do have is
sensible assumption to make.
BECKETT: The Trident submarines are built. That
debate in a sense is now over.
HUMPHRYS: Not all of them?
BECKETT: Well, they are so well on the way that I
think it is bacically over. But you know that's a very interesting and
important point again. The propulsion units - the assumption is always made,
all those people who were involved in the Trident work would be out of work,
but that's to assume that if you don't have Trident you don't have anything
else. I think it was in the 1987 general election that I went with Denzil
Davies who was then our defence spokesman to the factory in my constitutency
where they make the propulsion units for those submarines, to tell them that we
would commission new submarines for which their work would be needed, but they
wouldn't be nuclear armed submarines, they might be hunter-killer submarines.
HUMPHRYS: But to go back to the basic point of
this you as a member of CND would keep Trident and you'd contemplate....
BECKETT: Well the Labour Party's policy is to put
Trident INTO those negotiations. Those negotiations are continuing although
not fast enough at the present time, they may well be over by the time the next
Labour government comes to power.
HUMPHRYS: Alright, let's move away from defence
spending, that is something about which your campaign group supporters feel
very strongly, they also feel very strongly about massive public investment in
schools and hospitals and so on. Now are they wrong to insist on massive
public investment as a top priority, as THE priority?
BECKETT: I think there is a general common ground
not only in the Labour Party but outside it, that of course we do need
investment in our schools, our hospitals and so on and there's also very much
common ground, including in the campaign group that there are large sums of
public money being wasted in these areas at the present time - vast sums of
money being spent on bureaucracy in the Health Service, vast sums of money
being spent on a system accounting which goes far beyond, as far as I can
judge, what would be needed for efficient organisation which nobody could
dispute, goes far beyond that into the kind of accounting that you would need
if you were going to completely privatise the Health Service and send people
bills for their health care. Now money wasted like we're all against and we
all want to see it diverted into effective spending on health care, effective
spending on pupils, etc.
HUMPHRYS: They want massive new public investment
don't they, that's what they're after. Now you said..
BECKETT: Well what we want from a Labour
government is a growth that can deliver the resources that can indeed provide
that.
HUMPHRYS: You've been saying that it was a mistake
to have gone into the last election insisting, as you put it, that all the
figures had to add up.
BECKETT: Oh no, I wasn't saying that, no..
HUMPHRYS: Well, you did say that in the Transport
and General Workers' debate..
BECKETT: No, no, no, no, no, no, no you haven't -
if I may say say so - misunderstood what I've been saying.
HUMPHRYS: Well I read it quite carefully, several
times.
BECKETT: Let me make extremely clear EXACTLY what
I'm saying. What I'm saying is that we know that our problem in the Labour
Party is to win and to hold the trust and confidence of the British people and
in particular to win and hold their trust and confidence on this important
question of can we deliver on the economy? Now in an attempt..what we found in
'87 was that the Tories had taken every kind of think tank document, every
proposal, every idea anybody had ever had and added it all up and attached huge
figures to it and they were claiming, by misrepresentation, they were
claiming..
HUMPHRYS: Yes, quite, I do understand that.
BECKETT: ..that the Labour Party was committed to
some huge immediate public spending programme which I mean nobody could have
delivered frankly in the time-scale that they were alleging. So we understood
that was the issue we had to tackle to be able to win trust and confidence and
the way we sought to tackle it, approaching '92, was to have detailed figures
and detailed costings. And we did that successfully, but then they simply told
lies about us.
So now we have to look at what's the
context, how do we deal with that? And the conclusion I have reached is that
of course, insofar as we put forward specific proposals, they have to be sound,
they have to be as far as they can be costed - that is necessary, but I've
concluded it is no longer sufficient. To get that trust and confidence it
isn't enough to have a sound programme, we have to challenge the basis on which
the argument is now conducted. We have to say to the present government it
cannot be true that there can be no choice, that everything else everybody
wants to do has to be on top of the spending that you're doing, has to be on
top of the taxes that you're now raising.
HUMPHRYS: So you're not going soft on public
spending in any way, you're not saying we've really pump more into these vital
services?
BECKETT: I think everybody knows that the Labour
Party would want to put more, for example, into the Health Service, but we're
certainly not going to put more in where there's money already being wasted.
The first step is to..
HUMPHRYS: Right, so no more....
BECKETT: No, the first step is to divert money
that's being wasted to where it's productively used. Now I'm pretty confident
that beyond that in the Health Service for example we will need to look at
putting more resources in, but that will have to be alongside our work to
rebuild the economy and deliver the wealth that can do that.
HUMPHRYS: Let's have a look fairly quickly if we
may, because we've nearly run out of time, it's something else the campaign
group very keen on, they'd like you to re-nationalise water, take water back
into public ownership. Would you do that?
BECKETT: I'm certainly not averse to the notion
of water coming back into public control. It depends on what degree of
ownership is needed for that.
HUMPHRYS: Tony Blair is.
BECKETT: Well I'm certainly - well I don't know
about that. You'd have to talk to Tony about that and I'm not ...
HUMPHRYS: Well he said so in the Financial Times.
BECKETT: Well I'm not going to discuss the
policies of the approach of other candidates. I'm here to talk about my own
candidacy. What I certainly want to see is the water industry taken under very
firm control. I think it's outrageous the way that people are being rooked at
present by an industry which is paying huge salaries to the people who run it
and making huge profits which go to a small group of people, and incidentally
making contributions to the Conservative Party.
HUMPHRYS: If I said to you on the basis of this
conversation, you don't sound very much like a left-winger, what would you say
in a sentence?
BECKETT: I would say that people in the news
media like to attach these labels for their convenience. I would be happy and
proud to be described as a left-winger but what I am is somebody who's always
made up their mind on the merits of the case and tried to argue that case
honestly and forthrightly and the opportunity to do that is all I'm seeking.
HUMPHRYS: Margaret Beckett, thank you very much.
...oooOooo...
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