Interview with Sir Norman Fowler




       
       
       
 
 
 
................................................................................
 
                                 ON THE RECORD 
 
 
RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1                                DATE: 12.6.94 
................................................................................
 
JOHN HUMPHRYS:                         Good afternoon. Labour needs a new 
leader, I'll be talking to one of the contenders. Some say the Tories need a 
new one too. I'll be talking to the chairman of the party. That's On the Record 
after the news read by Jennie Bond. 
 
NEWS 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Imagine the weekend from hell for the 
Conservative Party - and this is probably it.  Still trying to recover from the 
devastating blow of the by-elections which delivered some of their worst results 
this century and now waiting for the European election rseults with the polls 
telling them they won't be much better, they could even be worse.  So what's to 
be done?  I'll be talking to the man who's chairman of the Tory Party now, but 
isn't expected to be for very much longer - Sir Norman Fowler. 
 
 
                              *******************         
                                       
 
HUMPHRYS:                              So there we are, Sir Norman Fowler, all 
your fault, you fought the wrong campaign. 
 
SIR NORMAN FOWLER:                     Well I think that's not remotely the 
case, and I think that the point you have to remember is that we...allied and 
and we were with the MEPs throughout the planning of this campaign and 
throughout the campaign itself.  Quite interesting really, Christopher Prout 
was telling me on Friday that after..during the campaign he'd received no 
complaints from candidates, no complaints had come through to him about the 
handling of the campaign, and the fact is that most commentators in this 
country have said that it was a good campaign, it was a united campaign, and 
the lesson I would draw from it is this.  Clearly we couldn't actually undo 
everything that had been done over the last eighteen months in terms of 
disunity.  But I think that the lesson of it is, we showed a united campaign 
could be fought and I think one needs to do more of that over the next two or 
three years, not less. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              So you weren't able to hold the party 
together for eighteen months, you've managed to hold them together for just 
these few weeks.  That's not a great achievement is it? 
 
FOWLER:                                I think the campaign showed that we 
could fight and we put together a united campaign.  What the opinion polls show 
quite clearly, and there's one today which shows it, is that over eighty per 
cent of the public regard us as disunited on the European issue, we've got to 
address that, it's commonsense we have got to address it, but the comfort that 
I take from that campaign was. First of all I don't...do not believe that John 
Major fought a sceptical campaign, I think that is just absurd, that is just a 
silly point.  I mean the fact is that his position as far as the Social Chapter 
for example, he'd made it clear that we weren't going to sign up to everything 
that came from Brussels, that's not sceptical, the fact is that it was a 
positive campaign, his campaign was positive, he fought for the free enterprise 
single market all the things that Tories stand for, the real division was 
between us and the other parties, and I tell you the other thing which came 
over. You've just had one clip on there, the enormous enthusiasm that John 
Major got in his rallies, from party workers who rallied to him in those 
rallies. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              But you've got problems haven't you, if 
it takes a campaign, an election campaign to get the party to stick together 
for only three weeks. I mean you've had eighteen months when you weren't able 
to hold the party together, and it takes an election campaign to achieve that 
for you.  And then on what they think, some of your members think, was a 
Euro-sceptical basis. 
 
FOWLER:                                Well I don't think..I can't be bashed 
from all sides on this, doubtless I will.... 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Don't worry about that, I thought you
perfectly well could be bashed from all sides, you are being bashed from all 
sides. 
 
FOWLER:                                Doubtless, I'll correct that, doubtless 
I will be bashed from all sides, and doubtless we all will.  But what I would 
say on it is this, that I think it was a good campaign, we...I mean frankly we 
were the only people fighting it on the European issues, and I think that 
everyone who appeared on your programme beforehand, that snippet beforehand, 
would confirm that.  It was only we who were actually settling out the European 
issues, whether it was the Social Chapter, or whether it was the veto and the 
rest.  John Major, in using the campaigning techniques that he does so well, 
took that to the public, and I thought took the party with him. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              So the operation was a success, pity 
that the patient died. 
 
FOWLER:                                Ha! ha!  Well it's ...I come back to 
what I said, you're not going to actually correct everything that has gone 
wrong over a period on Europe in a matter of a two or three week campaign. What 
you can do, I mean let's look forward, we've got a general election, a general 
election does not need to come until the best part of three years, we've got a 
long way to go before that general election.  Now I think that the Party would 
be very sensible to take the lesson from this, that more campaigning of the 
kind that we've been doing over the last month is substantially better than 
having whoever it may be, having debates in public in the Party.  If I think 
that, I tell you that's actually what the Party in the country feel and they 
feel it very strongly. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              But you're perfectly happy to concede 
then something that you denied in the past that the Tory Party has been badly 
split over these issues for the last eighteen months? 
 
FOWLER:                                Well I mean I can hardly deny the fact 
that if you look at a Gallup Poll it actually shows that eighty two per cent of 
the public think that we are divided on the European issue. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              You've denied it often enough in the 
past and so have many other leaders in the Tory Party. 
 
FOWLER:                                I'm not sure that I have actually denied 
that that has been a public perception, the public perception is there. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              More than a public perception, it's the 
reality is it not. 
 
FOWLER:                                What has happened is that we have had a 
debate on Europe which has divided the Parliamentary Party in particular, and 
we've had debates in public on that, what I am saying is that over the last 
month we avoided that, we avoided it almost entirely and I think that that was 
good, is showed what we could do and I think if we have any sense we will keep 
on that particular tack, and what I don't think is it's going to do anyone any 
good at all, is having kind of inquest after inquest and saying you know, that 
the campaign didn't do that and the campaign didn't do that, I mean I think 
that's absurd. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              But, the implication from what we've 
just been hearing is that there isn't - in your words - a great deal of sense 
out there because, clearly, the Party is still divided.   
 
FOWLER:                                Yes, you have put together an interview 
with a few people.  I don't think that is necessarily the view of the 
Conservative Party.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Well.. 
 
FOWLER:                                I tell you this, John.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              You can't have it both ways.  You were 
just telling me eighty-two per cent of the population think there is a 
profound split.  
 
FOWLER:                                No, sorry, I mean, on the way forward.  
As far as the way forward is concerned, the - I'm sure - that the Conservative 
Party in the country - up and down the land - what they want us to do is to 
come together and what they want us to do is to do what we did during this 
campaign: set out the differences between the Conservative Party and the Labour 
and the Liberals.   We set that out very clearly, indeed, and that is the way 
to do it. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              But, what you did was you came together 
by peddling a Euro-sceptic club. 
 
FOWLER:                                No. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Well, let me quote you.  You heard them.
Never let me remind you.  Peter Price: trying to hold everyone together in a 
broad church blunted the message.  Margaret Daly: you were led by the 
Euro-sceptics and that's why we got into trouble.  
 
FOWLER:                                 Well. Look, Peter was round my table 
during the campaign. Peter knows perfectly well the factors that went into this 
campaign and certainly it is not remotely the case that we set out a 
Euro-sceptic message. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              But, why do your MPs think you did?  Why 
did Margaret Daly think you did?  A Euro-sceptic led by the Euro-sceptics, she 
said. 
 
FOWLER:                                No, no.  But, I mean, it is simply not 
the case.  It is simply not the case that the Prime Minister set out - I mean, 
he was at pains to set out clearly his belief in the European Community, his 
belief in our position there.  But, if our belief in Europe is going to be 
judged by the fact that we agree with everything which comes from Brussels.  I 
think that is simply an absurd judgment. 
 
                                       That actually is not Margaret Daly or 
Peter Price, that is actually the issue that Mr Ashdown and the Labour Party 
have been putting against us.  They've said: we're not real Europeans because 
we don't agree with everything.  I agree we don't agree with everything but 
we took this country into the European Community and the issue now is what 
kind of Community we want and that is the issue.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              We know what kind of Community Bill Cash 
wants and he was delighted with the approach you took during.....campaign...
But, he said, and I quote "We could have gone further.  We've got to make sure 
now that we get it right." And you know what Bill Cash- I mean, Bill Cash 
would like to blow up the Channel Tunnel and sack the Commission.  Slight 
exaggeration there, but you take the drift! 
 
FOWLER:                                I think that is a total exaggeration and 
I take- 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              But, do you take the drift?  
 
FOWLER:                                I mean I take what you're saying but, I 
think that the exaggeration of your point speaks for itself.  I don't think 
Bill Cash actually does believe in the sort of thing that you set out.  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Bill Cash is a Euro-sceptic and that is 
not beyond dispute.   
 
FOWLER:                                That is not beyond dispute that Bill 
Cash and the Government have been at conflict on, for example, the Maastricht 
debate. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              And, he now thinks you're heading in the 
right direction. 
 
FOWLER:                                Well, he-I mean.  What I think that 
John Major and the Government put together very skilfully was a campaign which 
brought the Party together on the issue of Europe and it isn't... 
 
                                       It isn't a matter of just looking at the 
personalities.  If you talk to the bulk of the Conservative Party.  If you talk 
to the great majority of the Conservative Party, doubtless, you can find people 
on both extremes of this argument.  You can in the Tory Party, you can in the 
Labour Party and God help us you can in the Liberal Democrat Party as well.   
 
                                       But, if you talk to the vast majority of 
the Tory Party, you will find that the kind of campaign that John Major fought 
was exactly the one that they wanted.  They want someone who actually stands up 
for British interest and that was what John Major did.  With great skill, he 
negotiated at Maastricht.  He got us the opt-out as far as the Social Chapter 
is concerned but, also, what we're committed to is the Single Market.  What 
we're committed to is the kind of free enterprise deregulated community. That's 
the kind of Europe that we're fighting for. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              It was certainlyt the kind of campaign 
that Bill Cash and his fellow Euro-sceptics wanted and your problem is... 
 
FOWLER:                                No, I don't- No, no! 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Let me finish the question.  
 
FOWLER:                                But, it isn't right! 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Once you pay the danegeld, it's 
very difficult to get rid of the Dane and Bill Cash wants more now because 
you've gone down his road and he wants you to keep going down his road.  
 
FOWLER:                                Well, I think, that you know we're in 
danger of actually having an argument on the two extremes in the... 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Ah, but there are extremes within the 
Party and this is the point, isn't it? 
 
FOWLER:                                But, there are two-But, there are two 
extremes in every Party.  Not just the Tory Party.  In the Labour Party: what 
do you think Peter -Do you think Peter Shaw believes in all this stuff that the 
Labour Party's set out? 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              The Tory Party is profoundly divided. 
 
FOWLER:                                No, it's not profoundly divided.  The 
bulk of the Tory Party stands, and this was the..I think what was shown in the 
campaign is that you were telling me - I mean you tell me what I was telling 
you - you were telling me only weeks before the campaign that the whole 
campaign was going to be a shambles.. 
 
HUMPHREYS:                             I don't recall saying anything of the 
sort. 
 
FOWLER:                                ..or interviewers like you and there was 
going to disputes all over the place, there weren't disputes all over the 
place.  As far as I can remember there was only about one or two incidents in 
the whole campaign. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Right.  So you managed to hold, well 
we'll concede this then, that you managed to hold the party together for three 
weeks, you've got to hold the party together for the next two and a half years 
now and you've got to do rather more than that, you've got to persuade people 
to vote for you and to return you at the next election.  There's precious 
little sign at the moment that you've won their confidence isn't there?  
 
FOWLER:                                I think you're now onto the central 
point, I mean the position I think is this: that we have seen above all 
economic recovery, we've seen low inflation, low interest rates, growth in the 
economy.  But what hasn't happened is that that hasn't translated itself to the 
well-being and the feelings of individuals themselves, that's not at all 
surprising given that we've had to take tax increases to deal with the PSBR.
It was necessary to deal with but obviously it has had an impact upon 
the public's own feeling. 
 
                                       Over the next two or three years and I 
keep on..I underline this point, we have two or three years to recover from 
this, over the next two or three years the opportunity is there with the 
strength of the recovery I believe to come to a reduction of taxation not an 
increase in taxation and I think that.. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Is that a promise? 
 
FOWLER:                                No it's not, I mean I'm in no position 
to make promises.  As you know I'm not a member of the government but if you 
want my assessment of what is going to take place over the two or three years 
or the opportunity that is going to take place over the next two or three years 
it is this: you have got a strong economy that has been fought for, we have had 
to take tough measures to do it, the tax increases were the tough measures, 
obviously we've paid a penalty for that and the recession obviously we paid a 
penalty for that.  I think over the next two or three years the opportunity of 
the Chancellor of the Exchequer is much greater in terms of tax reductions. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              So your advice - you say you're not in 
the government, but you are Chairman of the Tory Party - your advice as a very 
seasoned politician to John Major is "cut taxes or you're in real trouble next 
time around". 
 
FOWLER:                                I don't think I said.... 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              No, I'm asking you whether that is your 
advice? 
 
FOWLER:                                No, my advice is that the..or rather my 
judgement is that the opportunity is there and is going to be there over the 
next two or three years.  We've taken a lot of punishment obviously and the 
public have over the last two years, they have taken it, I'm afraid for good 
reasons because we needed to deal with the PSBR, we needed to increase tax and 
we have dealt with that.  And now we have got a fast growing economy, the 
fastest growing in Europe.  The fact is now that over the next year, the year 
after that and indeed the year after that we'll be in a much stronger position; 
the punishment has been taken.  I think that you will find now.. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              It's finished now, the punishment's 
finished. 
 
FOWLER:                                No I'm not saying that but I think that 
the Chancellor will be in a much stronger position as we go to the..along 
towards..over the next two or three years. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              So what you are saying - because look, 
you've had two years of this recovery now, much longer than that if you believe 
what Mr Major said during the election: vote for us on Thursday the recovery 
begins on Friday, but it hasn't  - by your own admission - affected the mood of 
the voters, they're still against you and that's because of tax increases...  
 
FOWLER:                                But it has been a recovery, I mean 
people were.. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Let's not dispute that.. 
 
FOWLER:                                Well a few months people were even 
disputing that.  The recovery has taken place, unemployment's coming down, all 
that is you know, good news as far as the economy is concerned.              
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Alright, well let us not dispute that, 
let's say it has been a recovery but people don't have that feel good factor as 
a result of it, and what you seem to be saying is that unless you can now 
deliver on your promises to cut taxes rather than to keep putting them up 
you're going to lose the next election because people won't trust you. 
 
FOWLER:                                My diagnosis is that obviously that 
although the recovery has taken place that has not translated itself to 
individual people.  That must be, I think the case, given that taxation has had 
to be increased; it was necessary for taxation to be increase, no-one I think 
denies that that is the case. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              I accept all that.  
 
FOWLER:                                The opportunity I believe - and I'm 
talking for myself - I believe, now raises itself over the next two three years 
that the burden of taxation, I don't know where, I don't know how or the 
timescale, all those are opportunities and decisions for the Chancellor of the 
Exchequer, but the opportunity I think is there. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              But you're in trouble if it doesn't 
happen, if that opportunity isn't taken.  
 
FOWLER:                                Well I wouldn't say that because I think 
that the opportunity is there and I am sure that the Chancellor and the 
government will understand that. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Isn't the real problem that the people 
of Britain have actually lost faith in the confidence and the competence of the 
leadership of the Tory Party.  You heard what David Nicholson had to say there, 
what the party is seeking is strong, clear and consistent leadership, the 
electors don't think we've got it now. 
 
FOWLER:                                No, and again I don't agree with that.  
I think that the position is as far as John Major's own leadership is concerned 
he won the 1992 election, he got a mandate.. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              That was before he broke his promises on 
taxation. 
 
FOWLER:                                Well you say he broke his promises, I 
was with John Major.. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              ..promises to cut taxes and then puts 
them up. 
 
FOWLER:                                Well I was with John Major throughout 
that 1992 campaign and what John Major said consistently everywhere was that 
his first requisite, his first priority was a strong economy, that actually he 
kept his word on that, he actually did..he has provided that and he has taken a 
lot of punishment as a result.  But I tell you this, I think if every time we 
had been in difficulties in terms over..since 1979 and we then said "my golly 
we're in such difficulties we must change the leadership" we would have had a 
lot of changes of leadership during the 1980s. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              This isn't difficulty, this is crisis 
isn't it.  
 
FOWLER:                                No it isn't crisis, we have had..I mean 
the by-election results were not good and we've been...  
 
HUMPHRYS:                              They were disastrous. 
 
FOWLER                                 No, they were not good obviously and 
we've been through that before... 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              "Ghastly" in the words of Cecil 
Parkinson this morning and "this is more than just a blip" he said.        
 
FOWLER:                                Well I didn't see or hear Cecil 
Parkinson but what I do say and I would imagine as he is a former Chairman of 
the Conservative Party would agree with this, is that first we can recover from 
this and secondly it would be a great mistake for you or anybody else to write 
us off at this stage.  I warn you against writing the Tory Party off, we can 
recover, we will recover and we will recover under John Major's leadership. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Sir Norman Fowler, thank you very much. 
 
FOWLER:                                Thank you. 
 
 
 
 
 
                                  ...oooOooo...