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ON THE RECORD
JOHN HUME INTERVIEW
RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION: BBC-1 DATE: 5.12.93
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JOHN HUMPHRYS: Mr Hume, what is the key?
JOHN HUME: Well, the key is, as I have been making
clear throughout them listening to all this speculation, in the first place,
the key arises from the discussions that I have been involved in with Mr. Adams
and both Governments are now totally and fully informed and as I have made
clear throughout and a lot of people don't seem to hear or want to hear. What
we're talking about in our dialogue is not a solution to the problem that would
be imposed on anyone. We're talking simply about achieving a process that
would achieve a total cessation of violence and that process would not threaten
any section of the community, and written into every statement that we have put
out. We've put the word agreement in so often to make it clear that what we're
talking about is agreement among the divided people and presumably when the
people in the process that we're talking about which is both Governments and
all parties get to the table, that's the stage at which everything will go on
the table including the articles two and three that people are talking about
including everything else because the truth is that up till now everything has
failed so everything should be on the table but the objective is agreement
among the divided people, and what I'm talking about isn't.
There's two processes involved in what
I'm talking about. The first is one which will bring about a total cessation
of violence because in the last twenty years all the talks that have taken
place have taken place against a background of violence. If we can at last
create circumstances where violence is totally ended and the talks take place
in that atmosphere, you don't have two thoughts to rub together to recognise
that it should be a lot less difficult to reach agreement in such an
atmosphere.
HUMPHRYS: But you see a lot of people say that
sort of answer is clearly well meaning but it's so vague as to threaten
everybody and you say it threatens nobody, nothing will be imposed and the
Loyalist population of Northern Ireland hears you saying that and sees all
manner of threats involved in it.
HUME: Well could you tell me what threat they
see in.
HUMPHRYS: Well yes, they're afraid of seeing a
united Ireland imposed upon them.
HUME: Well, I mean, have you listened to what
I said?
HUMPHRYS: Yes, very clearly.
HUME: And have you heard me saying that it's
the people of Ireland who are divided and that the answer is agreement among
the people of Ireland.
HUMPHRYS: Yes I heard you say that
HUME: Pardon?
HUMPHRYS: I heard you say that.
HUME: How could that be imposing Irish unity?
HUMPHRYS: Well ...
HUME: Do you not understand that an agreement
could take any form? Of course it could take the form of Irish unity, but it
could take any other form as well. The only form it will take is the form that
the people of Ireland, North and South agree to, and as I have said repeatedly
in public, whatever form that agreement takes, whatever form it takes, as long
as it's agreement, and I've said repeatedly to the Nationalist Community that
it's people who are divided, not territory. The traditional Nationalist mind
said here is that this is our land, and my argument against that is that it's
people who are here and it's people who are divided. Without people, it's only
a jungle and you can't bring people together, only by agreement and whatever
form that agreement takes as long as it's an agreement, the quarrel is over and
then at last we'll start working together and as we work together, presumably,
the old prejudices will be eroded and away down the road somewhere will emerge
a new Ireland whose model will probably be very different from any of the
traditional ones that we've been arguing about for the last fifty years.
HUMPHRYS: I take that point but as you say that is
a long way down the road, and in the meantime, you have a situation where you
had your talks with Gerry Adams, you apparently agreed upon something and
you've told Dublin what that is, you've told Downing Street what that is, you
may have told people in the United States what that is. You haven't told the
Loyalist community of Northern Ireland what that is, and they're scared.
HUME: In the first place, I have informed both
Governments what it is and I have made, and so has Mr Adams clear public
statements, and everything is in that public statement. Last weekend I made a
major speech to my Party Conference in which I spelt it out in detail, but
commentators don't seem to want to know this. I made very clear in that that I
was addressing the traditional reasons given by the IRA for their use of
violence and that I was asking the British Government to make clear to them
what I had already made clear to them that those reasons no longer existed, and
to come out very clearly with the statement which makes it clear that the
traditional reasons for the existence of the IRA, who are a product of British
history, a product of Unionist history and a product of Nationalist history,
they are the last remaining product of that past and they still believe in the
old historic reasons for Britain's presence in Ireland, and what I have asked
Mr Major to do is to state that those reasons no longer exist, and if he does
so, he then would set up with Dublin a process involving both Governments in
all parties which would include every party with an elected mandate and evey
party then totally committed to totally peaceful means.
HUMPHRYS: But if he does that, Mr. Hume, if he
does that, will he not be saying to the Loyalist community in Northern Ireland,
you may be thrown out at some stage, you may, and I know this is evoctive
language, but this is how they see it, you may at some stage be thrown out of
the United Kingdom.
HUME: Well I think it's quite the opposite of
that. In this sense, the Loyalist people through their spokesmen keep asking
the British Government to reiterate their guarantee. That emphasises there's
always a distrust there that someday, some British Government will sell them
out. They said last week they don't trust the present British Government
because it's talking privately to the IRA, they said they don't trust the
opposition. What I'm actually asking them to do is to trust themselves and
nobody else, and to stand on their own feet and negotiate a relationship for
the first time ever with the rest of Ireland because we can't ... I mean can I
say it any clearer. We can't solve the problem without them and their real
strength is their numbers and their geography, and now is the time for them to
sit down and negotiate their own relationship, whatever form that takes with
the rest of the island, and they're better to do it now than to keep on relying
on asking British Governments to keep restating guarantees because at some
future date they mightn't be a majority in Northern Ireland. Why don't they
stand up now and negotiate an agreement which will protect their heritage,
their ethos and their rights for the future as well as for the present? I
mean, I'm prepared to stand on my feet without the assistance of any government
and stand up for the rights of the people I represent and I know that any
agreement I reach is one that I can put to the people. That's all I'm asking
from the James Molyneuxs' and the Ian Paisleys' of this world.
HUMPHRYS: And what you're asking from John Major,
he hasn't yet delivered?
HUME: No, and he has been sitting on it for
some considerable period of time, and as a result of what was delivered to him,
he was able to say in his Guildhall speech that this is the best opportunity
for peace in twenty years.
HUMPHRYS: So why do you belive he hasn't ...
(talking together)
HUMPHRYS: I beg your pardon.
HUME: Why does he say that if he doesn't
believe it, because I believe it is and I have been here in the front line
against violence for the last twenty five years, and I believe we've a major
opportunity for peace.
HUMPHRYS: So why do you think Mr Major isn't
turning that key, to use your phrase?
HUME: Well I don't understand why he's not,
and I'm not going to indulge in speculation. The speculation is that he's
engaged in private deals with certain parties in Northern Ireland. Now, I
wouldn't do a private deal with Mr Major about Northern Ireland because I know
that a private deal with any section of our people is not a solution, and I'm
not asking for private deals, and if you read all of the statements that have
been made since my talks with Mr. Adams, you will find that I'm underlining all
the time that what I'm trying to get is agreement among our divided people. The
one thing that has never happened throughout this century is that the Unionist
people have never settled their relationship with the rest of the island, and
that's the central relationship to the problem because that's why they
overthrew home rule by force against the wishes of the British parliament in
1912. That's why they opposed Sunningdale (phon) agreement, that's why they
opposed the Anglo-Irish agreement. Until their relationship is settled with
the rest of the island and they no longer have any fear of being subsumed,
nothing is going to be stable, so surely logic says, get the Unionists and the
rest of us all round a table and get governments to agree that whatever
agreement emerges from that we'll endorse.
HUMPHRYS: A final quick thought if I may, Mr.
Hume. Does the prospect of a Loyalist backlash in Northern Ireland now worry
you.
HUME: The prospect of any violence in Northern
Ireland concerns me very deeply, because we've been living with it for so long,
but I find it a bit strange that every time, every time there is talk of
change, there is threat of a Loyalist backlash. I'm not talking, and I mean I
don't see why people should backlash against a suggestion, are you willing to
have your representatives stand on their own feet, not relying on any
guarantees from anybody else, only the guarantees of yourselves, and make an
agreement that will protect your heritage, your ethos and your rights for ever.
HUMPHRYS: Mr. Hume, thank you very much indeed.
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