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ON THE RECORD
DAVID HUNT INTERVIEW
RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION: BBC-1 DATE: 12.12.93
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JOHN HUMPHRYS: And having listened to all that, David
Hunt, the Employment Secretary, so what was all the fuss about, they've got
what they want, everybody's happy including presumably the British government?
DAVID HUNT MP: Yes, I don't think there's much point
John, in trying to play up divisions. There was some originial divisions, the
idea of compulsory work sharing, the idea of compulsory reductions in working
weeks, that was very much the socialist language that existed at one time
within the European Community. That's now past history, I think we have a
White Paper which is very much closer to the imput that both Kenneth Clarke and
I put into the Commission as to what we wanted to see and the magic words,
"improve the flexibility of the labour markets", is in this White Paper and I
very much appreciate the way in which the Commission have responded to the
contributions they received.
HUMPHRYS: You say playing at differences but these
are pretty fundamental things we're talking about here. I mean the Chancellor
of Exchequer, John Major, yourself, had said "we don't want masses of extra
borrowing on the part of Europe", because we can't afford it, it's as simple as
that. What Padraig Flynn has just been telling us, as you've heard, is that
they have carte blanche to do what they set out in the White Paper in the
first place to do.
HUNT: Well we quite rightly, together with a
number of other member countries, objected to the idea of union bonds, an idea
thrown up seemingly at the last momment.
HUMPHRYS: But you've accepted it now.
HUNT: No, we haven't.
HUMPHRYS: But Padraig Flynn just said you had.
HUNT: It's not in the communique and the
Commissioner made that clear.
HUMPHRYS: But he also said that if that was what
was needed then that was what they could do, he was quite clear about that.
HUNT: Well we don't believe it's needed and
can I just say about trans-European networks. At Edinburgh, we agreed the
importance of trans-European networks, we made very substantial funds available
most of which have not been spent. We believe the private sector has a very
critical role to play in building up these networks which are of vital
importance but the most important thing about this White Paper is the
recognition that the only way to create jobs is not for member governments to
create more jobs, not for public money to create more jobs but to create an
enterprise atmosphere in which we see more jobs being created.
HUMPHRYS: And to make very large sums of money
available which the European Commission will borrow and then will make
available to people who need it. Maybe through Euro-bonds because you heard
what Mr Flynn said. Jean-Luc Dehaene, the Prime Minister of Belgium said
"we have decided to exclude no means of raising money". Now either that is
true or it isn't true.
HUNT: It's been remitted to the finance
ministers, which is, of course, what our Chancellor wanted in the first place.
What he objected to was that the White Paper was produced just after a meeting
of the finance ministers which was not able to consider this...
HUMPHRYS: But it can still happen then, so it can
still happen, it's gone to the finance ministers, the finance ministers may
well say 'fine, we can have these Euro-bonds, we can borrow the money the way
we choose to borrow it'.
HUNT: I think we're going down a side alley
with trans-European networks. The most important thing is what the
Commissioner has said that we find a way of creating the jobs and the
atmosphere for the creation of jobs in Europe that we need. Unemployment is
too high. We believe in the UK that we are winning by increasing flexibility
of labour markets. We're seeing unemployment falling in the UK, the only major
country which is below the European average in unemployment and where it's
falling and we believe our language is the best language and there's no doubt
our language is reflected in this document and I greatly welcome that.
HUMPHYRS: But Mr Delors certainly wouldn't agree
you were going down a side alley, we at the moment going down some sort of side
alley, he would say this is the M1 of the argument because what this money is
needed for to build these trans-European networks, to create the infrastructure
that is going to lead in the long term to creating tens of millions of new
jobs.
HUNT: When I talk about a side alley, I think
in a way I don't want to look for division. There was rightly a protest, there
was rightly a protest about the way in which union bonds were introduced.
That's all past history now. I believe we have an agenda on which we can unite
particularly John, you may remember, I've always been calling for an audit of
competitiveness. For all the regulations that come forward at national and
Community level, we should just ask what are the effects on employment of these
regulations. Now that's contained in the communique, I greatly welcome that
but the important thing is to create a high wage, high productivity economy in
Europe. I don't want to see any businesses moving outside Europe, I don't want
to see any businesses moving to the Far East or to the Pacific rim. We want
quality jobs, good jobs, good opportunity. I want a free trade, free
enterprise Europe and I think that's much closer after this summit.
HUMPHRYS: I do understand that but what I'm trying
to explore is what it is you're united on and whether you are now united on,
to put it crudely, the Delors plan. That is to say a plan which will enable
Europe to borrow billions of pounds to spend on these trans-European networks,
these TENs, as they're called. Now that is fundamental, is it not, to
free...
HUNT: But Edinburgh agreed twenty four billion
pounds for trans-European networks, so we had very largely made these
decisions. When I talk about a side alley, the most important thing now is to
see the labour market in Europe freed up so that we can create the jobs we're
going to need.
HUMPHRYS: I do understand that but can I just be
quite clear that you are now agreed and this is really a sort of yes or no
issue isn't it? You are now agreed that this money that Mr Delors wants to
spend as he spelled out in this White Paper which was rubbished by John Major
and by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, you have now agreed the fundamentals of
that White Paper, we can be clear about that?
HUNT: Yes, but do reflect though on the
communique that we are all agreed about....
HUMPHRYS: Yes, yes........
HUNT: No, it isn't because if you look at the
communique, it is does not contain some of the things that were in the White
Paper which we objected to. The sort of artificial target of fifteen million
jobs, there were various other things. You will now see we are united. Yes we
are united behind the communique that all the heads of government have signed
up to and I believe that's very good news for Europe.
HUMPHRYS: But why was it necessary to rubbish it
in quite the way it was rubbished? Mr Clarke - perverse. A government
official - cynical and transparent. John Major - silly. Why the need for that
kind of language, that tone?
HUNT: Well I greatly regret that the whole
idea of union bonds was thrown in at the last moment. I think we rightly
criticised that but there are some huge issues here John, which really push
that into the background. The biggest issue is GATT, that's going to mean more
jobs, we believe four hundred thousand more jobs in the UK in the long run.
It's going to mean more exports, lower prices for consumers. There's some
enormous issues here, we could see a turning point for the unemployed in Europe
with greater opportunities ahead.
HUMPHRYS: But Europe is in itself an enormous
issue and a relationship between the countries is an enormous issue. The tone,
the content of your relationships with each other is enormously important and
what you seem to be saying is that John Major and Kenneth Clarke and everybody
else rubbished this document before they've even properly read it because when
they finally got to Brussels, they all said, "well, that's okay, we can go with
that, we're happy with it".
HUNT: I think the reaction of the British
media did distort our approach. We have, of course, read.... we had read the
White Paper, there is much in this White Paper with which we agree, we strongly
disagreed with the idea of union bonds being thrown up at the last moment. But
there is so much we can unite on. So let's focus on unity, let's focus on
harmony rather than division because there is here an agenda which is good news
for the unemployed of Europe. We in this country have pioneered a number of
things like the YT guarantee, you don't get that sort of guarantee in other
countries in the Community. We pioneered a new concept of modern
apprenticeships which I'll be wanting to talk to my European colleagues about.
So there are lots of good ideas coming forward, lots more hope for the
unemployed.
HUMPHRYS: So you say let's focus on harmony. Does
that mean that we will see a difference then in tone, in the British
government's tone towards Europe and all its works, in future we'll hear less
of the kind of language we've been hearing this past week for instance.
HUNT: Well I believe the Commission has
shifted its ground in recognition of the real concern in a lot of member
countries that we want to see more flexibility in labour markets, a move away
from the language of the past. Now I welcome that and I believe now we have an
agenda on which we can unite.
HUMPHRYS: So, the language of the past, move
away from that you said. No more to use a phrase that you famously used in
Blackpool just a few months ago, "Jumped up socialist bureaucrat", referring
presumably to Jacques Delors - no more of that?
HUNT: Don't expect me for a moment to start
trying to build bridges with socialism.
HUMPHRYS: ..... Jacques Delors?
HUNT: No, no, no. I'm talking about a
Socialist, a Socialist vision, a Socialist ... there are Labour members of the
European parliament who want to see a socialist super-state. Now I will fight
that as long as I have political breath in my body. I don't want to see a
return to that old corporate socialism that I fought so hard in my home city of
Liverpool. I don't want to see that coming back. I believe in a free
enterprise, free trade Europe and that I believe now is closer than every
before.
HUMPHRYS: So, no apology to Jacques Delors then.
He's still a jumped up Socialist bureaucrat?
HUNT: Well, I'll fight Socialism and if he's
standing as the next Socialist President of France I will continue fighting
Socialists wherever they are, because I believe they have the wrong philosophy.
Don't forget, I remember the last Labour government introducing a bill to make
registered dock workers compulsory in a five mile radius of a port. That's
just the wrong emphasis, the idea of a compulsory working week, reductions in
working hours, compulsory work sharing. That I will continue to fight, but
that's not in this White Paper. It's not only a White that you ought to look
at what's in it, you also ought to look at what's not in it and that's why it's
an agenda on which we can unite.
HUMPHRYS: But I'm looking for some harmony in the
sort of response you've just given me, and I look, I seek a harmonious response
to Jacques Delors and I hear you repeating the same charges that you made and
caused such ructions with only a few months ago.
HUNT: But you mustn't confuse my attack on
Socialism ....
HUMPHRYS: No, no, your attack on Delors.
HUNT: No, no, You mustn't confuse my attack
on Socialism. I shall continue that war as long as I live politically. But
you mustn't confuse that with my vision of Europe. Europe was the issue that
brought me into politics. Europe is the future, but it's a free enterprise,
free trade Europe, a free Europe that I want to see.
HUMPHRYS: But it didn't sound like an attack on
Socialism you see, because if it had been you'd have said "Jumped up", no, you
wouldn't have used the phrase jumped up, would you, you'd have just said
"Socialist bureaucracy or something, but you didn't, you used a very specific
phrase (Jumped up Socialist bureaucrat). That was pretty personal, pretty
unpleasant.
HUNT: But you forget what preceded that
comment. What preceded that comment was that what brought me into politics was
my belief in Europe, my vision of Europe, and I didn't want to see that vision
tainted by a socialist super-state, and that is the language still being used
by the Socialists in Europe, so we mustn't confuse the political argument with
the real vision of Europe that lies ahead, and I believe this has been a very
successful summit. I agree with the Commissioner it has been tremendously
successful. We must now build on that success.
HUMPHRYS: Michael Heseltine says we - presumably
he includes you in this, "We must not be the club bore on Europe, sitting just
inside the door moaning". Isn't that what you're doing?
HUNT: No, not at all. I mean the
commissioner will verify that at our social affairs meetings I always put very
clearly what we believe in in the UK, what I believe in personally, and I find
that we strike a chord which each other. The army of unemployed in Europe has
grown far too large. We have to do something about that, we are doing
something about it in the UK. The Commissioner mentioned the long term
unemployed, over half the unemployed are long term - not in the UK. A third,
two-thirds of the those becoming unemployed in the UK find a job, come off the
register within six months. Now we've still got to focuss on the longer term
unemployed, we've got to find a way of getting them back in touch with the
world of work. That's where we unite.
HUMPHRYS: And you're united with Mr Flynn on
saying we should borrow if necessary the billions of pounds Europe in which you
passionately believe, you've just been saying, should if necessary borrow these
billions of pounds for the sake of the long term unemployed. That's what
you're saying.
HUNT: Well, what we have said very clearly
is that we should not borrow our way to full employment. That is the last
thing.
HUMPHRYS: .....a contradiction...
HUNT: No, no, no, it isn't, because if you
read carefully the communique that's been issued by the heads of government
they are turning their back on that road. You see if you spent public money to
try and get the unemployed back to work it would only be a temporary
palliative, you couldn't...
HUMPHRYS: Not if .....infrastructure ...
HUNT: No, no, you couldn't continue that
without the injection of private sector money, and you'll see that reflected in
the language of the communique. I want to see the private sector - I want to
see a positive partnership between the public and the private sector. That is
very much in tune with my vision of a free trade, free enterprise Europe, and
that's going to come and that's very good news for the UK and for Europe.
HUMPHRYS: David Hunt, thank you very much indeed.
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