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ON THE RECORD
SIR PATRICK MAYHEW INTERVIEW
RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE 27.3.94
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JOHN HUMPHRYS: Sir Patrick Mayhew, Unionists have been
saying it for quite a long time, now we're hearing people like John Alderdice
saying it, the Downing Street Declaration has, basically, backfired.
SIR PATRICK MAYHEW: Well, I've just heard John Alderdice say
it's an excellent basis for political progress. And, he's quite right because
it is a declaration of foundation principle and a declaration of foundation
reality. And, it has, now, got the support of ninety per cent of the people -
nine out of ten - North and South in Ireland and it has led to Mr Reynolds
saying at Saint Patrick's time, in North America, that the dispute of the IRA
is not with the British Government but with the Irish people.
I don't see any failure there. I see
substantial success.
HUMPHRYS: Well, substantial success. But, it's
achieved the opposite of what you wanted. The IRA hasn't stopped bombing and
you wanted them to. You wanted the Unionists to accept the Declaration as-as
the British Government underpinning its commitment to the Union and they
haven't.
MAYHEW: Well, what I wanted was this: the two
Governments wanted to have a foundation declaration established, which showed
the two Governments standing side by side, stating that the future of Northern
Ireland would be based upon consent. That's the principle - the democratic
principle. The reality is - which is also set out in the Declaration - that
coercion has no place - and, should have no place - in the future of Northern
Ireland. Now, both Prime Ministers sign up to that. And, that is a great
advance because it has never been the case before.
Now, when you have the Irish Prime
Minister, in consequence, saying to the people of America at the time of St
Patrick's Day: don't subscribe money to Republican organisations, you are
moving a long way down the road in the direction you want to go. Of course,
it's a long, slow business and there's only one person who can actually bring
an end to violence and that is the person who is committing violence.
HUMPHRYS: But, if it's so reassuring - as it's
meant to be - as you say, it is being, then, why are the Unionists not
reassured?
MAYHEW: Well, I think, that you've got to look
at what people are saying. Now, if you look at what Doctor Paisley said,
incidentally, before he could have read the thing. He said it was a sham in
Downing Street, just before the two Prime Ministers came out and announced that
it had been agreed. Other Unionists have said: well, now, here is something
which we are prepared to live with but we wish to see the talks process
continue. Mr Molyneaux has said that he wants the talks process to continue on
the basis that it is going on, at the moment.
Bilateral discussions between Parties
and Michael Ancram, the Minister for special responsibility here. So, I think,
it has to be looked at, in the light of what we said about it, at the time:
that it is not in competition with the talks process. It supplements it and it
underpins it and it provides a platform for what will, then, develop in the
talks process.
HUMPHRYS: You quote Mr Molyneaux there but Mr
Molyneaux seems to want you to resign because of it.
MAYHEW: Well, I've seen a number of people say
from time to time that they would never (phon) like to see a Secretary of State
resign. I think, I saw Mr Molyneaux saying some time ago that he thought, in
due course, I would be reshuffled as a Minister associated with a failed policy
and I have to recognise that things get said - and, particularly, as Elections
come along. What I'm actually concerned about is what people do.
What Mr Molyneaux has done is to
authorise his people - his representatives - to continue to talk and that's
what the people of Ireland want. The people of Northern Ireland make it very
clear to me that they want to see the politicians talking. And, so, Mr
Molyneaux is very sensible - it seems to me - to want to do that.
HUMPHRYS: Well, you say they want to talk. They
want to see the talks going on.
MAYHEW: Yes, indeed, they do.
HUMPHRYS: But, all you've got going, at the
moment, are those bilaterals. And, the different Parties to whom you're
talking in those bilateral talks - or Mr Ancram is talking - are working from
diametrically opposite agendas.
MAYHEW: No, I don't agree with you. I love the
way you say: all you've got is the Parties talking to you bilaterally. Cast
your mind back a few years and think what would have been said. Supposing I,
as the, then, Secretary of State had prophesied that the Parties would be
speaking to the Government - and, also, now, speaking to each other - about the
possibility of getting an overall accommodation - the basis, the goal of the
three stranded talks, which began in Ninety-Two.
HUMPHRYS: Well, I'll certainly cast my mind back
and what I recall is that they were talking. They were talking long before the
Downing Street Declaration. They've been talking for many years now.
MAYHEW: No, no. Well, no. But, here is a
structured process, set up by my colleague-my predecessor, Peter Brooke, back
in Ninety-One, which got them round the table in Ninety-Two - they sat there
for six months, round the table in Ninety-Two - that process resumed
bilaterally in Ninety-Three, in September. And, with the same overall - very
ambiitious - objective of getting a new beginning, an overall settlement,
accommodation, across the three sets of relationship.
Now, to have that started and to have it
continuing that is something which, a few years ago, people would have said:
but, that's amazing progress.
HUMPHRYS: Well, I wonder would they because you
say to have it started, to have it continuing, what is continuing? This is the
question. As I say, they are working from completely different agendas. Mr
Hume and Mr Molyneaux don't even pretend that their aims are compatible.
MAYHEW: Well, just, just wait and see. You're
not privy to those talks.
HUMPHRYS: That's certainly true.
MAYHEW: They're going on confidentially but
they're going on under the same umbrella that was over them from the very
beginning. Listen to Mr Hume, listen to Mr Mallon, listen to Mr Molyneaux, who
is saying: I have authorised my people to continue to talk. He said, not very
long ago - I think, you would have heard him about a week or ten days ago -
saying the important thing is that this talks process continues.
HUMPHRYS: Oh, indeed.
MAYHEW: Now, I'm not going- I really am not
going to get into the business of opening up the confidentiality of this
process. What I do just invite you to acknowledge is that so long as
politicians are talking on this broad subject, with that broad objective, they
are doing what the vast majority of people in Northern Ireland want them to do
and it is positive and not negative.
HUMPHRYS: But Mr Molyneaux's broad
objective/narrow objective/medium objective, however you want to describe it is
about the internal government of Northern Ireland. It is about securing the
Union of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
MAYHEW: I think, Mr Molyneaux's objective is one
which both the Governments share. He wants to see more devolution. He wants
to see more democratic responsibility shouldered by politicians in Northern
Ireland. I want that. The Irish Government wants that. Both governments said
so in Article Four of the Anglo Irish Agreement eight years ago. Now, the
question is: how are you going to get that, which everybody wants, everybody
sensible wants? How are you going to get it attracting the broad support from
both sides of this divided community, that it will have to have, if it is going
to work.
Now, that is what the talks process is
about and I think Unionists recognise that they're not going to get the broad
support of the Nationalist side of the community for devolved administration in
Northern Ireland, unless there is progress on North/South relationships - the
second strand of the talks - and that is what we're going on about.
HUMPHRYS: But, the whole point - and, that is what
Mr Molyneaux, who said he will have no part in...but, at the same time-
MAYHEW: No, no. Well-
HUMPHRYS: -he's made it perfectly clear. He made
it clear on this programme-
MAYHEW: No, cheer up! Cheer up!
HUMPHRYS: -a few weeks ago.
MAYHEW: Cheer up! He hasn't. That's not the
position of the Unionists. That is not the position. If it were the position
of the Unionists, it's not one that would have suddenly dawned upon them now,
when they accepted it three years ago. Everybody recognises that there has to
be progress across the three strands.
HUMPHRYS: But-
MAYHEW: Now, there are differences of emphasis
as to how far you get on one before you move into another. And, you will find
Mr Molyneaux - I'm quite sure of this - you will find him saying: I'm not
suggesting that there should be a devolved administration up and running before
we get into discussions of Strand Two.
HUMPHRYS: There was as a time when Mr Molyneaux
said precisely the kind of thing that you've now just said - but he has changed
his positon. He is now worried about the relationship, the growing and
burgeoning relationship, as he sees it, between Dublin and London as one
effect, one side effect, of the Downing Street Declaration. And, that's what
is concerning him.
MAYHEW: Well, let's examine it - if we can.
What is this burgeoning relationship between Dublin and London? The
relationship between Dublin and London, so far as Northern Ireland is
concerned, has been shaped, most recently, by the Anglo-Irish Agreement eight
years ago. Now, I don't make any bones about this. The way in which that
agreement was brought-was negotiated and brought about got right up the noses
of a lot of Unionists and there is, undoubtedly, a lot of resentment that
remains. But, that is-there's nothing in the joint declaration that has caused
the relationship between the two Governments to burgeon, to burgeon.
All that has happened there has been
that both Governments have said: the future of Northern Ireland is to be based
upon consent, the consent of the numerical majority living there and coercion
should and could have no place. So, that anybody can join the Democratic
forum, the Democratic table, sit round the table and discuss these
Constitutional matters, except those who use violence.
Now, that is a major plus.
HUMPHRYS: What you heard John Alderdice say, in
that short film, was that this cannot go on. We cannot wait around.
MAYHEW: That's a very different matter.
HUMPHRYS: Ah!
MAYHEW: Well, very different matter.
HUMPHRYS: Is it a very different matter?
MAYHEW: Of course, it is.
HUMPHRYS: So long as you wait around, you're going
to see an increase in violence, which is what we are now seeing.
MAYHEW: No. But, no, no. That's a very
different matter, indeed. Now, John Alderdice says it's an excellent basis for
political progress. I agree.
HUMPHRYS: But something must be built on that.
MAYHEW: How are we-
HUMPHRYS: You can't stop it. You can put it to one
side, by all means - he said that. You can put it to one side. It's there.
MAYHEW: Yes.
HUMPHRYS: Forever.
MAYHEW: That's right. Now. I'll accept that.
That is why it's such a mistake to say it has run its course. It is
something...
HUMPHRYS: I've not used that phrase.
MAYHEW: Well, Mr Molyneaux used that phrase and
I respectfully take issue with it. And many other people have said it has run
its course, it's failed, I think your introduction to this programme said that
it's failed and 'can Sir Patrick Mayhew get anything...
HUMPHRYS: No. I simply said 'to one side'.
MAYHEW: ...'Can Sir Patrick Mayhew get anything
out of the wreckage?' This is the dramatic language which I am quite used to,
particularly when it's in a negative sense, but it is misleading. It is
something which is free-standing and it is there, it hasn't got a course to
run, it is there and we stand beside it. Now we continue as we always said we
would with this search for political progress, cautiously probing but steadily
and that depends as much upon Dr Alderdice, as it does upon the other political
leaders and upon we who represent the Government.
HUMPHRYS: The problem is that what the other
political leaders, the other Unionist leaders in Northern Ireland see, is that
the IRA is being encouraged to believe that it actually can in some way bomb
its way into some sort of talks.
MAYHEW: Oh do tell me how. Let me tell you what
I think about that. The IRA now see themselves isolated with nine out of ten
people North and South saying that the Declaration is right and only three per
cent, I think, in the whole of the island saying that they should continue with
their violence. Now just let's look at it. Once you have them isolated in
that way and assuming they have a political objective, they are not being
terribly clever by continuing. Perhaps they will, perhaps they will continue,
and if they do they will continue with less and less toleration in the
Nationalist community for what they are doing.
HUMPHRYS: But what the Unionists see is Dublin and
hear is Dublin listening to John Hume, for instance, saying Sinn Fein must come
further into the negotiating process, and they worry about that.
MAYHEW: If they worry about Dublin listening to
Mr Hume I suggest that they should simply concentrate on the correct analysis
of the Declaration. I have made...and on the correct analysis of the
Government's position - their Government's position. Their Government has said
and has constantly demonstrated that there is to be no part in negotiations
about the future of Northern Ireland with any...for anybody who seeks to
fortify their argument in this democracy by the use of a bomb or a bullet - nor
will there be.
HUMPHRYS: So that if Dublin were to suggest that
perhaps the time was right for Sinn Fein to be invited to some sort of talks,
some sort of forum, on the basis of a cease-fire as opposed to a permanent
cessation of violence, you would say 'that can't happen'.
MAYHEW: Yes I would. I would. And it won't.
And they won't suggest it either. You have got the Taoiseach, Mr Reynolds,
saying in the Dail only the other day, this week, that they are looking for a
permanent cessation of violence before there is any question of the IRA, Sinn
Fein joining their own peace forum or forum for peace and reconciliation.
There is nothing here between the two Governments. And let me just tell you
why. A temporary cease-fire is a cease-fire with the threat hanging over the
victim that it will stop. Right. What does that amount to? It amounts to
nothing more than passing a suspended sentence of death upon the successor to
young Tim Parry who was murdered one year ago in Warrington. A temporary
sentence of death...suspension of a sentence of death on the successor to
Constable Hagan, murdered beside his pregnant wife in a bar a few weeks ago.
HUMPHRYS: So you...
MAYHEW: That is not something which I regard as
anything other than an insult. And certainly nothing that should attract any
response of any positive character from either government.
HUMPHRYS: So you as the Secretary of State for
Northern Ireland would unreservedly condemn any invitation from Dublin to Sinn
Fein to take part in any talks for a peace and reconciliation, for instance,
unless and until there is this total cessation of violence.
MAYHEW: Yes I would and there are not going to
issue it either, I am confident of that.
HUMPHRYS: Are you absolutely confident of that?
MAYHEW: Yes, I am not telling you things that I
am...when I say I am confident in that I am confident in that! And I have this
advantage over you, if I may say so, that I deal with Mr Spring and I have
dealt with Mr Reynolds in the process leading up to this Declaration and I see
Mr Spring at the regular conferences under the Anglo Irish Agreement and I
believe that he means what he says. I mean, on behalf of the Irish Government
he says 'we are not interested in temporary cease-fires'. How can anybody be
interested in a temporary cease-fire when it is no more than a threat to pick
it up again in six months time or six minutes time unless you play ball with
me? Nobody is and they certainly aren't, in my judgement.
HUMPHRYS: Something else that the Unionists worry
about is this so-called channel of communication to the IRA. Is that still
open?
MAYHEW: I have said to the House of Commons that
if there is to be any further communication with the IRA or with Sinn Fein
before they have declared a permanent end to cease-fire and to violence and to
stop supporting it, if there is to be any - and I am not saying whether there
is or isn't or will be or won't - nothing will be passed down that chain of
communication that is other than what is being said publicly by the Government.
More than that I am not going to say to you, I am not going to say it to the
House of Commons, I've told them so and they understand why.
HUMPHRYS: But it's closed as it stands.
MAYHEW: I'm not saying anything more than I have
said to you just now and what I have said to the House of Commons in a written
answer to my colleague David Wilsher.
HUMPHRYS: But can't you understand when you give
me that sort of answer the worries that the Unionists have when they hear that.
MAYHEW: It's no good talking to me in those
terms. I'm simply telling you that I am not going to say more to you than I
have said to the House of Commons. The House of Commons understands why and I
think people listening to this programme will understand why.
HUMPHRYS: In political terms isn't your moment of
truth going to come with the European elections because Ian Paisley has turned
it into a kind of referendum on your policy.
MAYHEW: Well, let's wait and see. The European
elections, I hope, will be fought and I hope that they will produce a result
which reflects people's views about European issues. They're extremely
important issues, indeed. I would just mention, since you're making this
connection between views about the Declaration and electoral results...
HUMPHRYS: Mr Paisley's made the connection.
MAYHEW: Well all right, he's made it, but he
made that connection in a by-election - all right, fairly small beer - in East
Belfast just immediately after the Declaration, a very short time after the
Declaration, when the DUP candidate fought it entirely upon an anti-Declaration
ticket and there were those who said, oh well the Ulster Unionists (who have
been much less unfavourably disposed towards the Declaration) are going to get
a hiding - well that didn't happen. I don't know what's going to happen. I'm
the last person to underestimate Dr Paisley's ability to strike a very negative
note and a doom-laden note and attract votes, so I'm not forecasting the answer
to that. What I am saying is that people actually round Ireland believe, to
the extent of nine out of ten, that the Declaration is a good thing. He
declared it a sell-out before he could have read it and I don't believe people
agree with that.
HUMPHRYS: Sir Patrick Mayhew, thank you very much.
MAYHEW: Thank you.
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