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ON THE RECORD
JAMES MOLYNEAUX INTERVIEW
RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION: BBC-1 DATE: 17.10.93
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SHEENA MCDONALD: Well, a short time ago, I spoke with Mr
Molyneaux. He had heard what Gerry Adams had to say - so I asked him first what
circumstances would allow him to sit round a table with Sinn Fein
representatives and talk peace.
Mr. Molyneaux, we're talking about peace
and we're talking in the context of the so-called Hume/Adams proposal. Now
this week your colleague, Martin Smyth, talked about circumstances in which it
might be possible to speak directly with Sinn Fein, and the manner of his
speaking and the timing of what he'd said has been interpreted as flexibility
on the part of the Ulster Unionists - a change in attitude. Is that correct?
JAMES MOLYNEAUX MP: The headline gave that impression, the
content of what he said was no different from what I said at Blackpool in
response to a question on the 6th of October.
MCDONALD: But he did suggest that circumstances
will apply when it will be possible to sit down with Sinn Fein in due course.
MOLYNEAUX: Just as I did at Blackpool on 6th
October and as I did yesterday at the Party Conference - heavily qualified
the qualifications spelt out by both of us, very clearly, as they were by Ken
Maginnis, Willie Ross and Cecil Walker, all my colleagues.
MCDONALD: But within those restrictions it will be
possible - you did add a second one, or a further one, yesterday, quarantine,
a period of quarantine, which would have to be gone through before you would
sit down with Sinn Fein. How long a period?
MOLYNEAUX: The Dublin Minister actually used a
different term which I thought was rather more insulting and that was
decontamination period. I don't think you can put a time on it because given
the whole history of Irish Republican terrorism for most of this century, they
have the gift of splintering at critical moments, so it wouldn't necessarily
follow that even if Mr. Adams were to proclaim a genuine, total cessation of
violence, that it could be implemented and would be implemented throughout the
entire Republican Movement. We've seen all that before.
MCDONALD: But given your scepticism you did
use the term "quarantine", you did talk about it yesterday at Conference, might
it happen before the next millenium?
MOLYNEAUX: I would think it's years, and certainly
years and not months, but it's difficult to put a timescale on it simply
because of that unknown factor of how effectively it could be enforced.
MCDONALD: And simply for clarification, how
long a period of quarantine or decontamination, as you quote, would you like to
see, assuming that you have the authority to decree such a period?
MOLYNEAUX: Well, if I had the authority, I would
say we're talking somewhere five-year plus probably.
MCDONALD: And do you think that would be an
effective mechanism - a cease-fire and then five years of nothing.
MOLYNEAUX: Well, it's not too long in terms of
prison sentences for other crimes - major crimes. The system of when one is
considered for parole and so forth. It's got to be a very lengthy period of
giving evidence of good intent to stop being criminals - that's really what
it's all about, at whatever level we're talking about criminality.
MCDONALD: Let's talk about what the Hume/Adams
proposal might lead to. Now, assuming that talks might be convened, there
is a principle that the people of Ireland should determine how they should be
governed and that principle is enshrined in a proposal that's come from Mr.
Reynolds from Dublin that there might, in due course, be dual referenda to
comment on whatever agreement might be suggested. Now, is that a mechanism
that you would approve of?
MOLYNEAUX: It's a rather odd suggestion isn't it.
It's a sort of.. putting it on the same par with taking a referendum in
Gibraltar and another one in Spain on the same day and then adding the two sums
together. We would all know at a certain point by computer what the result
would be, wouldn't they?
MCDONALD: Well, I don't think people would agree
with your analogy of Gibraltar and Spain, but looking directly at the dual
referenda. Is that an idea you would favour? One for the people in Ireland,
one for the people in Northern Ireland?
MOLYNEAUX: No, it wouldn't be because the greater
number of people - I've used that term which is more accurate than the majority
which can be interpreted as Protestant majority, or Unionist majority - the
greater number of whom I speak are those Protestants and Roman Catholics, the
vast number of them, and according to how Father Fall(phon), the Parish Priest
of Dungannon, only twenty-per cent of his people would take a differing view,
namely, would vote for a United Ireland. So we have a very much greater number
of people who simply want to remain citizens of the United Kingdom.
MCDONALD: Therefore, surely the kind of referendum
in Northern Ireland that I'm hypothesizing about, would actually solidify your
existing vote here in Northern Ireland?
MOLYNEAUX: Well not necessarily my existing vote
because they wouldn't all vote for my Party but what they would vote for would
be the desire to remain part of the bigger unit of the United Kingdom.
MCDONALD: But that's what I'm suggesting, that it
would in fact, protect your position. So, in fact, it would act in your
favour.
MOLYNEAUX: Yes. Yes but that has been the case, it
was the case for instance, in the so-called border poll for which there is
provision in the 1973 Act and so forth. The Republican people, SDLP and Sinn
Fein boycotted that operation and they would only be attracted into it if they
could have it reinforced by a referendum on the same day, possibly on the same
subject in a foreign country and that's quite unacceptable anywhere.
MCDONALD: But the Anglo-Irish agreement confirms
that the Unionist consent is absolutely necessary and would be respected if
such a vote should take place in Northern Ireland. Now surely that, as I say,
would protect your position, it must be quite an attractive proposal assuming
that this proposal could lead to an agreement which might present some kind of
solid basis for peace in due course.
MOLYNEAUX: Yes but I've no objection to a
referendum taking place in Northern Ireland but why do we want to take one in
one foreign country? Do we want to have them in all the European states now
that we're in this great marvellous European Community? Why aren't all
the European states entitled to have a referendum on the same day, on what the
people of Northern Ireland ought to be accorded?
MCDONALD: If dual referenda improved chances of
peace, would you go for it?
MOLYNEAUX: If it could be guaranteed that it would
bring peace, it would be very well worth considering. But if not..it would
simply aggravate the situation because you would have this blatant propaganda
put all around the world that the Island of Ireland had voted for a British
withdrawal and you know what that would lead to on the streets in Northern
Ireland.
MCDONALD: Let's talk about how things might
progress from here. Now, contact with Dublin has been a sensitive area.
However, I understand that there is a proposal that Mr Maginnis will go to
Dublin - possibly next week, to talk with Dick Spring about how things
might progress from here.
MOLYNEAUX: Well, I haven't heard that one because I
mean I was talking to Mr Maginnis after the conference at about six-thirty
last night and he hadn't heard of it. But we're always grateful for any
information conveyed to us. The ground rules for that was agreed by Mr Paisley
and me and our two Parties, four years ago - that, at some point, in the
discussions, under Mr Brooke initially and then Sir Patrick Mayhew - at some
point we would meet openly with Irish Government Ministers and that we did.
That decision has never been rescinded but it can only be of any real value if
it comes at a time when there is a willingness on the other side of the table
to take real account of the position of, what I call, the greater number of
people in Northern Ireland.
MCDONALD: Well, we have heard Dick Spring, the
Foreign Minister, say that he's very interested in meeting with Unionists from
Northern Ireland, can you..can you tell us when that meeting might take place?
MOLYNEAUX: Well, we can't put a date on it but what
I'm saying is: the mandate for such meetings, was given to Mr Paisley and me,
four years ago, so that there isn't any sort of bar. We don't have to invent
any new rules or engage in anything very dramatic. But, I think, I'd- it's
part of the flaw, you see, in the surface operation in which those two earlier
series of talks were carried on under Mr Brooke and, then, Mr Mayhew. You saw
it far off - the dish aerials spinning around on the lawn at Stormont,
conveying news of imaginary breakthroughs day after day and all that rubbish.
The practical way forward is to have quiet deliberations - even, initially, by
communication by document and memos and what not. A good deal of the ground
can be cleared for all that. And, if it's necessary to have face-to-face
meetings at the appropriate time, then, so be it. But, this is not the
appropriate time when we have all the confusion over the Adams/Hume initiative,
as it's so-called.
MCDONALD: Are you suggesting that that kind of
not-open, but that kind of quiet discussion is going on at the moment?
MOLYNEAUX: Yes. Well, it is, at different levels
because-especially 'cos-
MCDONALD: At informal levels?
MOLYNEAUX: Yes, mainly with Her Majesty's
Government.
MCDONALD: With the Dublin Government?
MOLYNEAUX: Well, the Dublin Government will have
knowledge of what our views would be and updates on our position. And, I did
say to a journalist at Blackpool, "The Irish Times" (Mr Miller) that if
clarification were desired by the Irish Government as to what I had said
publicly we would be very happy to provide that.
MCDONALD: You see, there is a momentum, at the
moment. This proposal - the Hume/Adams proposal - is on the table. We've had a
cautious welcome from the Dublin Government. We haven't heard from Westminster
yet. But, what would you say to Dick Spring informally or openly...?
MOLYNEAUX: Well. I would say to Dick Spring-
MCDONALD: .. there's something in this.
MOLYNEAUX: Yeah. I would say to Dick Spring what
I'm saying to you. There is a far bigger, greater and more promising momentum
for the initiative which I launched on the 20th of March of this year. And, I
recounted that yesterday in my speech. The curious thing is people don't want
to know that although that is the real secret.
MCDONALD: I do want to know it, I do want to ask
you about it, but I just want to get position clear on the Hume/Adams
proposal. Is there something in it? Can we progress from that standpoint?
MOLYNEAUX: Yes, well we know what's in it. The
basic position is that her Majesty's Government would be required on Day
One to declare that they were going to withdraw from Northern Ireland
on a given date - roughly a generation ahead. That may be one interpretation
but it's twenty-five to thirty years.
MCDONALD: It's a basis to work from.
MOLYNEAUX: Yes, that's right and at in the interval
they - Her Majesty's Government - will make..do everything they possibly
can as Mr McNamara is very keen on doing to persuade the greater number of
people in Northern Ireland to change their nationality. Now, you can imagine-
MCDONALD: Clarify. Hume/Adams is a basis for
progress?
MOLYNEAUX: Well, that's-that's what they-
MCDONALD: In your view, you can move forward from
this proposal? You do not entirely reject Hume/Adams?
MOLYNEAUX: Of course, we reject. Yeah, we reject
that. It would be sheer lunacy because just imagine what would happen on the
streets of Belfast and every town in Northern Ireland, if they were told today
that the Brits are getting out in twenty-five years time. You know what the
so-called Loyalist paramilitaries would make of that. They would say: ho, ho
we've got to step up our operations to stake out our claim...
MCDONALD: Well, let's look at your blueprint for
stability. Now, you want to see changes in the legislative process, select
and....Committees and we gather the Select Committee, although it's not in the
Queen's Speech is in the offing and the establishment of regional government in
Northern Ireland. Are you confident that's going to come?
MOLYNEAUX: It's far more than that because I have
had the help of fifty-three..fifty-seven people from different walks of
life, different political Parties in Northern Ireland and they're agreed on the
necessity, first of all to establish that this is, basically, one community in
Northern Ireland and it's our job to draw together all the strands of that
community. Mr Adams is hell bent on proving that Northern Ireland is a failed
entity, that its people cannot live together unless he's there with his coils
of barbed wire and all that to keep them apart. I reject that utterly. It's
basically one community.
MCDONALD: But the elements that I mentioned
are elements that you are looking for, do you expect them to be delivered
within the lifetime of this government?
MOLYNEAUX: Yes, but with very great respect,
the delivery is not coming, in that sense. The great achievement will be
- and the only thing which can bring back real peace and stability in Northern
Ireland is to provide for low-key mechanisms in Northern Ireland starting - as
I said yesterday - in those areas where we do not even need legislation, on the
ground here in Northern Ireland, allowing people and giving them the
opportunity to exercise far more power over their own affairs. And, that can
be done without any disadvantage whatsoever to any section of the community.
MCDONALD: So, you're rejecting Hume/Adams, you're
putting forward your blueprint, but is there not...do you not have a fear that
given that the British government has re-stated it has no selfish or
strategic interest in Northern Ireland, that it may get together with the
Dublin government and come up with a new form of the Anglo-Irish Agreement
which does not suit your purposes as you've stated them?
MOLYNEAUX: But has anybody thought and I
wonder has Mr Adams thought through the implications of what he was saying
about a British withdrawal. A British withdrawal wouldn't mean a United
Ireland, it would mean that the British troops would be out, that Northern
Ireland would be an entity of itself. It wouldn't be in an Irish Republic.
MCDONALD: Mr Molyneaux, thank you.
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