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ON THE RECORD
RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 8.5.94
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JOHN HUMPHRYS: Good afternoon. Last week the Tories
came to grief in the town halls of Britain. Next week they launch their
manifesto for Europe. We've an opinion poll that says the voters who deserted
the Tories want another leader. I'll be talking about the Leadership and Europe
to John Redwood, that's after the news read by Moira Stuart.
NEWS
JOHN HUMPHRYS: If there's one thing that the
Conservative Party could do with now, it's a breathing space - time to apply
some healing balm to the devastating wounds inflicted in last week's local
elections. They're not going to get it. More damaging stories in the papers
today and David Mellor demanding that Cabinet heads should roll.
Next week they launch their manifesto
for the European elections and three weeks after THAT they face the voters
again. Mr. Major says that's a prospect he relishes. In which case, say his
critics, he must know something we don't know because the conventional wisdom
says he'll take another hammering. If he does the party's divisions over Europe
will be a big factor. Now it seems that the Tory Pro - Europeans are beginning
to shout the odds.
I'll be talking to John Redwood, who's
seen as one of the most sceptical of the Cabinet sceptics. We also report on
how truculent backbenchers, unhappy with Mr. Major's leadership, are holding
fire... for the time being.
But first, the views of the public,
specifically those voters who supported the Tory Party at the last general
election. Millions of them have deserted since then. Why? And how do they want
to see things change? John Rentoul reports.
*****
HUMPHRYS: So what is the party to do? Earlier
this morning I spoke to John Redwood, the Welsh Secretary, and arguably the
most sceptical member of the Cabinet. I began by asking him whether it's any
longer possible for John Major to keep the party together.
JOHN REDWOOD MP: Yes, he can, and he must, and it is time
for everyone to rally, and to put across our strong and clear messages for the
European election campaign. It is only the Conservative Party that will defend
our veto in Europe. It is only the Conservative Party who will stand up
against extra taxes being imposed from Brussels. It is only the Conservative
Party that takes British interests seriously, and will put them forward
strongly in Europe. We need Conservative MEPs to support the excellent work
government ministers are doing in the Council of Ministers.
HUMPHRYS: That's the agenda clearly that you would
like to be discussed, but it isn't the agenda that at the moment is being
discussed, and Mr Major's problem is that he seems incapable of being able to
control the agenda.
REDWOOD: Well the media are always trying to
throw us off the scent, but I think it is time now we are entering a
pre-election period for Europe, for the media to put some of its fire on to
the Labour and Liberal parties. You should be inviting them into the studios
and finding out why they are proposing these absurd policies that would sell
Britain down the river. And remember, it's the socialists who are at the
moment in charge in the European parliament. So we are the opposition in the
European parliament, it is very important to have more Conservative voices to
control some of the undesirable legislation, and to give support to the strong
voice of British ministers in the Council of Ministers.
HUMPHRYS: How is Mr Major going to stop the
leadership speculation?
REDWOOD: Well he must press on with his job as he
is doing, he has a united cabinet that signed up on Thursday without any
dissenting voice to an extremely good manifesto, which is going to set out
clearly the things I've just been saying to you, because we want a Europe that
creates more jobs, which is friendly to business, which encourages more
investment, which is geared to more prosperity for the peoples of western
Europe, not a petty-fogging bureaucratic squabbling Europe where too much power
is taken to the centre and jobs and prosperity are destroyed. That is a
winning message, and one which the Prime Minister will be putting forward very
strongly from manifesto launch onwards.
HUMPHRYS: Let's assume that he wants to stop the
leadership speculation, and that's a reasonable assumption. Wasn't it a great
mistake for him to appear outside Number Ten, as he did on Friday morning, and
acknowledge openly that a leadership challenge is on the cards?
REDWOOD: Well, there had just been a statement
from a backbench MP. He dealt with it very strongly and firmly, he said that
he is the Prime Minister, he intends to carry on, it is now the time of all men
and women of goodwill in the Conservative Party to accept that fact and get
down to the business in hand. We need to spend the next few weeks on the
doorsteps, meeting people, talking to them, listening to their concerns. Of
course accepting that there are criticisms of some things the government
has been doing, things that we need to put right, or where we need to take
things further. But we also need to get across our very clear messages because
I believe our European campaign will strike a chord with people on the merits
of the case.
HUMPHRYS: But he dealt with it in the sort of
language that a fighter, that a boxer might use if he was trying to talk up the
gate.
REDWOOD: Well I don't think that's quite true. I
think he wanted....
HUMPHRYS: Well you heard what he said?
REDWOOD: Yes, I heard what he said. I think he
just wanted to....
HUMPHRYS: 'I'm here, I'm ready for it, I'm ready
for a fight..."
REDWOOD: ....get it out of the way, make it
very clear that he is the Prime Minister, he is the leader, he has work to do,
and I think now we should put that behind us, it is not an issue for the next
few weeks, and we should just get on with the work in hand which is the
question of the serious elections on Europe, and putting across these vital
points, which are of great concern to the nation, not just to the future of the
Tory Party.
HUMPHRYS: But what he said was bound to be seen,
as it was seen, as an acknowledgement that his position was under threat, or
at least under attack. That wasn't a very sensible thing to do, was it?
REDWOOD: I think it was just an acknowledgement
that one backbench MP had raised this question. It clearly had happened, it
was a fact, and so he dismissed it in the way you'd expect from someone who is
in his prime and wishes to get on with the job.
HUMPHRYS: But he's never felt the need to go on
the offensive in quite that way before, and it did make him look rather as if
he was rattled, didn't it?
REDWOOD: Well, I don't think we've had before a
backbencher explicitly saying that he was thinking of running against the Prime
Minister....
HUMPHRYS: You've had backbenchers saying he ought
to go, haven't you?
REDWOOD: .....in a future leadership election.
Well, that's a slightly different statement, and so the Prime Minister was just
making it very clear to that particular member of parliament that he is the
Prime Minister and wishes to remain as the Prime Minister.
HUMPHRYS: What if this speculation goes on till
November?
REDWOOD: Well, I don't believe in discussing
hypothetical questions. I am interested in the issues that matter to the
British people, and I think the media should also get interested in them,
because like it or not, after the European elections the Conservative Party
will still be governing the country. The issue in the European elections is do
you have a right of centre or a left of centre majority in that Parliament,
which is a big issue. Do you want people in that Parliament who will actually
block some of the job destroying measures that the Socialists dream up, or will
you have a group of people in that Parliament egging them on? Will you have a
group of people fighting for Britain or not, that is the issue?
HUMPHRYS: But so is the leadership of the Tory
Party, a very important issue, and the speculation is going to go on until
November? There's no way you can stop it, is there?
REDWOOD: That is not the issue of this election.
The choice before the voters is a choice about who they want representing them
in the European parliament, and the attempt by the media and a few others to
get us off that agenda is very destructive of democracy. The issue before our
democracy in the next few weeks is who will be our properly elected
representatives in that parliament. So let's discuss those issues. Let's
discuss what kind of a Europe we want. Let's discuss the issue of taxation, of
green policy, of job policies, of social policy in Europe, because those things
are going to be settled within the Council of Ministers, and the European
parliament has some power to endorse them.
HUMPHRYS: But you say the attempt by the media to
get you off these issues, it isn't just...the media doesn't actually make
these things up, the media reports what it is being told, and it's being told
by a very large number of people, inside the Tory Party, that there are deep
concerns about the leadership. And this is going to go on and on, and what
you're not able to do it seems, is offer any suggestions as to how you can head
this off.
REDWOOD: But I am telling you what we're doing,
and you're also being told by a large number of Conservatives that we want to
fight a positive campaign in Europe, and that there are big issues to be
discussed, and that every time I come into a studio to talk about those issues
- what kind of a Europe do we want, how do we create more jobs - you're always
trying to wobble me off it and say 'Well we want to talk about what might
happen in November, or what might happen in three years time'. Well let's get
on with the immediate task in hand, which is what is going to happen in the
next two or three weeks.
HUMPHRYS: But you see it isn't just me that wants,
as you put it, to wobble you off. We saw David Mellor this morning just a few
hours ago, volunteering what he thought Mr Major might do, and he put it quite
bluntly, 'sack Michael Portillo'.
REDWOOD: Well you always get the odd backbencher
with very strong views...
HUMPHRYS: Ex-Cabinet minister.
REDWOOD: It's a right of any democracy for them
to speak out, but the party as a whole is interested in winning. The
Conservative Party has a long tradition of winning by adjusting to the views of
people and sticking to certain core principles. That's exactly what we have to
do now. People have told us in the district elections that there are things
that they would like improved or changed in the way central government is
run in the country, and that is something we will heed, because of course we
listen as well as lead. But when it comes to the European things, I believe
that we are striking a chord with the British public, and the important thing
for us is to do enough work ahead of those elections to persuade people that
they actually matter, that it is important to vote, and that they should vote
on the merits of the European case and not on the issues about central
government.
HUMPHRYS: But you don't want to listen to
ex-cabinet ministers and people who are very close the the Prime Minister, such
as David Mellor, who says 'let's see a bit of blood on the carpet, "pour
encourager les autres", as you put it.
REDWOOD: Well, that is the decision of the Prime
Minister, who he has in his Cabinet. I saw a united Cabinet last Thursday sign
up to a very impressive European manifesto that I am proud to join and to
co-sign as one of the people who will be helping lead the campaign with special
responsibilities in Wales, and the task in hand is to get across those messages
to the British public.
HUMPHRYS: And we'll come to that in a minute, but
let's just stay for a moment, if we may, with this question of how Mr Major
heads off the speculation about his leadership and deals with this particular
problem. You say that you don't think he ought to sack anybody, you certainly
don't think he ought to sack Mr Portillo.
REDWOOD: I didn't say anything of the sort, I
said ...
HUMPHRYS: Well, let me ask you directly. Do you
think he ought to sack Mr Portillo?
REDWOOD: I said that is a matter for the Prime
Minister but I will tell you how he can head off the problems as you describe
them - which I have not accepted in the way you've put them, and that ...
HUMPHRYS: What, you don't accept that the Party is
divided?
REDWOOD: ... and that is to run a good election
campaign for the European elections and to surprise people by doing better than
the very low expectations there are now around.
HUMPHRYS: Well, indeed, and one way of doing ...
REDWOOD: And that is what I wish to help the
Prime Minister do, which is why I am keen to talk about Europe and the issues
before us in that election.
HUMPHRYS: But it doesn't surprise you that people
want to talk about the leadership because it is such a live issue and it's
something that preoccupies MPs, Members of the Conservative Party, Chairmen of
constituencies, time and time again. I talked to a very senior back-bencher
the other day who said: "I can't go into the tea rooms any longer because if I
go into the tea rooms they think I'm stirring up trouble over the leadership."
REDWOOD: Well in my own constituency they are not
talking about this, they are talking about the success we had in the local
elections because we put in a lot of hard work and we actually made a nett
gain, strengthened the Conservative hold in Wokingham, and we are now talking
about how...
HUMPHRYS: Pretty rare experience!
REDWOOD: Well, but there were some good results
around the country and where we managed to keep it to local issues and motivate
our electors they came out and supported us because there are examples of very
good local councillors and councillors around the country in Conservative
control. And of course we held some of our flagship councils because of that
and what we are now talking about in the Wokingham constituency - not all the
issuees you've been trying to put before me today - we are talking about the
big things in Europe: What kind of a Europe do we want? How can we resist the
move to federalism in the Liberal and Labour parties?
HUMPHRYS: I promise you that I am going to come on
to that.
REDWOOD: You don't, you just want to talk about
all this other old nonsense.
HUMPHRYS: Yes I do, we have plenty of time yet.
This is a sensible, long interview and plenty of time, but you are not going to
suggest to me that who leads the Tory Party - the Prime Minister of this
country - is not an important issue and there is serious...
REDWOOD: It's a very important issue and we have
a leader, we elected him, the country endorsed him in a big general election
victory and I am happy with that and I want to get on and follow his lead.
HUMPHRYS: You are happy with that but there are
many people in your Party who are not happy with that, who are deeply concerned
about Mr Major's ability to unite the party behind him. Now there's another
suggestion this morning from Lord Parkinson and that is that Mr Heseltine, who
many people speak of as an alternative leader, should become Chairman of the
Party. Might that perhaps be a sensible way of easing this problem?
REDWOOD: I'm not in the reshuffle game. We are a
few weeks away from a very important election. We have a united Cabinet who
want to get out and sell the manifesto. That is the work in hand and my job is
to put across why Conservative government is better at all levels - and I
believe it is and I believe we need to get across that message, because clearly
people have some worries at the moment which they expressed very forcibly in
many parts of the country on Thursday in the district and borough elections.
HUMPHRYS: All right. Well let's talk about Europe
then, you were very enthusiastic to do that. The reality is that your Party is
hopelessly divided over Europe.
REDWOOD: The reality is that only the
Conservative Party believes there have to be limits to the moves to federalism
in Europe and there has to be a limit to the amount of power that is
transferred from the British Parliament to Brussels. And it is the Labour,
Liberal and Nationalist parties who would give it all away, sell us out, sell
us down the river. They would get rid of our veto on immigration, for example,
which is something that matters a great deal to the British people. They would
probably get rid of our veto on a number of tax measures. I think they would
sign up, they have voted in the past for massive increases in expenditure from
Brussels that would need financing. The socialist members in the European
Parliament from Britain actually voted for a huge spending package increase,
which fortunately didn't go through, which would have meant four hundred pounds
a head extra from every household in Britain - a huge increase in tax burden
because of their spending ambitions. These are the things that need talking
about.
HUMPHRYS: If your Party is united on Europe, why
can't you stop people arguing then?
REDWOOD: Well, in a healthy democratic party
there are always nuances and friendly disagreements. That's no surprise.
HUMPHRYS: Nuances? They don't sound terribly
friendly and they don't sound like nuances!
REDWOOD: If you turned your fire to the Labour
Party you would find they have much bigger divisions on the subject of Europe
because they have some who would leave Europe tomorrow given half the chance,
get out of the union, out of the community and others who would have a federal
state tomorrow given half the chance. But because you are not interested in
the Labour Party at the moment...
HUMPHRYS: Well the Labour Party isn't in power at
the moment and I'm talking about you at the moment and when I talk to the
Labour Party about Europe I shall put these points to them.
REDWOOD: But the Socialists are in power in the
European Parliament and it's time that you and your colleagues started teasing
out from them why they voted in the way they have, very often voting to sell
Britain out and to impose more spending in tax on us.
HUMPHRYS: The fact is about the only thing you
within the Cabinet - you say that you have a manifesto with which you agree on
- but that's a manifesto of the lowest common denominators, isn't it? About
the only thing you agree on is telling everybody they ought to vote
Conservative. I mean, there is so little agreement even within the Cabinet.
REDWOOD: That's not true. The Cabinet agrees on
a very positive programme for Europe. We know exactly the kind of Europe we
want. An open free trade Europe, a Europe that recognises its trade and
responsibilities in the rest of the world, a Europe that cuts down on
bureaucracy and red tape rather than voting for more of it in the way in which
Socialists have time and time again in the European Parliament; a Europe which
is open for business not a Europe which suffocates national identity.
HUMPHRYS: But the problem is you cannot agree on
the sort of Europe you want to see. Mr Portillo himself caused serious
divisions, added I should say to the serious divisions, with what he had to say
last week.
REDWOOD: But I am just telling you that we were
all entirely at one on a very detailed and good manifesto which sets out a
positive vision for the kind of Europe we want and attacks hard the very
negative federal vision that the Socialists of all kinds, Labour and Liberal,
would impose on this country given half the chance.
HUMPHRYS: So you were entirely at one with Mr
Portillo when he said that a single European currency would mean the end of the
British Government, in effect?
REDWOOD: I believe that Michael is right to say
that were we to have a single currency it would obviously transfer powers and
responsibilities from British institutions, under the British Parliament, to
European institutions. That's quite self-evident, no-body disagrees with that
I would have thought.
HUMPHRYS: He went rather further than that.
REDWOOD: The issue is when do you decide? when
do you need to decide? and then how do you decide if there is a serious
possibility of a single currency in Western Europe? And the Government's
position is very clear on this. There is no need to decide because there isn't
at the moment a serious proposition to create a single currency today, tomorrow
or in a few months time. When we get to the point - if we get to the point -
that Western Europe as a whole is ready for a single currency, we will then
have to decide at that point what our conclusion is, whether we recommend it or
recommend against it to the British Parliament.
HUMPHRYS: But you can't simply sweep this under
the carpet, can you? because this is an absolutely fundamental matter of
principle. It's going to determine the way Britain and Europe goes for
generations to come.
REDWOOD: It is a very big issue. We're not
sweeping it under the carpet.
HUMPHRYS: But you're saying there's no need to
decide yet.
REDWOOD: Well, there isn't. Because there isn't
a proposition.
HUMPHRYS: You don't have a view on it Mr Redwood?
REDWOOD: There is no proposition. I don't have a
view on something which hasn't yet come forward as a firm proposition.
HUMPHRYS: Really?
REDWOOD: No.
HUMPHRYS: You literally do not have a view on
whether Britain should sign up to a single currency in Europe?
REDWOOD: I will have a view when there is a firm
proposition from Europe inviting us to say yes or no. If you said to me to
day, "Would you like to get rid of the pound and have the ECU tomorrow", the
answer is clearly no. Of course I don't want that.
HUMPHRYS: But it is in the ...
REDWOOD: But you're making my point for me.
You're saying there isn't a proposition.
HUMPHRYS: No, no, I'm saying precisely the
opposite. It is in the Maastricht Treaty. That is a fundamental aspect of the
way Europe is ultimately going to - you have an opt out for ...
REDWOOD: We have an opt out for this very reason,
that we don't think there is yet a firm enough proposal that we can judge.
When there is a firm enough proposal we'll all have strong views - I'm sure
I'll have a very strong view and I will argue my case and we'll then see what
the government concludes...
HUMPHRYS: So you're quite open minded at the
moment as to whether there should be a single European currency or not? You
...
REDWOOD: I'm saying no to a single currency
tomorrow because there isn't a sensible proposal and we made it very clear that
we think economies have to come together, their inflation rates, their
unemployment rates, their deficits and so forth have to be much closer together
before you could risk a single currency, but then there's a separate issue. If
you got to that point would you want one? And that is an issue which we will
settle when there is a proposition, if there's a proposition.
HUMPHRYS: So when the people on the doorstep say
to you, "Mr Redwood, I'm worried, because people like you have told me over the
years that I should be worried about British sovereignty in Europe, but I'm
worried about this single European currency thing. You say, "Don't worry
about it, no need to worry about it, beause it's something we can decide much
later". That's what you tell them is it?
REDWOOD: Yes, and I say that I'm of course very
keen to defend British sovereignty, that is obvious and only the Conservative
Party will preserve the vetoes over crucial matters like the single currency,
and like immigration policy and tax policy which the Labour and Liberal parties
would throw away. So it would be quite bizarre of someone to go and vote
Liberal in the European elections because they were worried that the
Conservatives might give away too much ground, because they'd give away the
whole thing immediately.
HUMPHRYS: So Mr Portillo was quite wrong to give
the kind of direct answer he gave to the sort of direct questions I've just
been asking you, last week?
REDWOOD: Michael Portillo was quite right to say
that a single currency were we to enter one would be a big transfer of
responsibilities..
HUMPHRYS: Oh, but he....
REDWOOD: ....to Europe.
HUMPHRYS: He went much further than that.
REDWOOD: But Michael well knows that the
government's line is very clear on this. We all are agreed that there isn't
yet a proposal on the table and so you can't say yes or no to something which
isn't a formal proposal. There's no need to.
HUMPHRYS: You know and I know that he went a good
deal further than that. Was he right to go further.
REDWOOD: Well, I've made my own statement and I
am happy to have made that statement. I am very clear that I don't willingly
surrender British sovereignty but I will have an open mind should there come a
time when the single currency is more than just a gleam in a few
Euro-officials' eyes.
HUMPHRYS: Let me give you another quick escape
clause there on your problems with Europe, and that is the referendum. Now
there seems to be a coalescing around this idea that there ought to be a
referendum. What's you view on that?
REDWOOD: Well, I think...
HUMPHRYS: That's to say of course not a referendum
about staying in Europe but a referendum ...
REDWOOD: No, this has move on. I think there was
an argument about a referendum on Maastricht and that has gone, that's an issue
that is now behind us. Now some people are saying we should have a
referendum before entering a single currency. Well, I would give you the same
answer to that I've just given you on the whole question of the single
currency, let's wait and see. There is no proposal on the table. It may be
many years away, it may never happen. I find it very difficult to believe that
Greece and Germany are within the space of the next few years going to sign up
to a single currency together. It requires all sorts of other decisions to be
made.
HUMPHRYS: So you're not saying no to a referendum?
REDWOOD: The Germans would have to spend a lot of
money subsidising Greece in order for them to live happily together in a single
currency area.
HUMPHRYS: You're not saying no to a referendum in
short.
REDWOOD: I'm not saying yes or no to a
referendum, I'm saying you have to wait and see when you get a big enough
issue.
HUMPHRYS: Final thought then. In 1983 the Labour
Party had an unpopular leader - it was preoccupied with internal philosophical
arguments and it got twenty-eight per cent in the election, the same as the
Liberal Democrats. That is precisely the situation that you, the Tory Party,
find yourself in today. How long is it going to take you? It took them ten
years to sort that lot out. How long is it going to take you?
REDWOOD: It's a very different position. They
then had a lot of loony lefties who were disrupting the party and its
organisation, they had a lot of wrong policies and wrong themes that needed to
be dumped, and it took them a long time to try and get rid of those. We today
have had disappointing results last Thursday. There's a message there for us
about national policy. I believe that by the time we get to the next general
election people will be a lot happier with our national policies just as I
believe that in the European elections it's vital that people concentrate on
the big European issues.
HUMPHRYS: John Redwood thank you very much.
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