Interview with John Redwood




       
       
       
 
 
 
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                              ON THE RECORD 
 
 
RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1                                  DATE: 8.5.94 
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JOHN HUMPHRYS:                         Good afternoon. Last week the Tories 
came to grief in the town halls of Britain. Next week they launch their 
manifesto for Europe. We've an opinion poll that says the voters who deserted 
the Tories want another leader. I'll be talking about the Leadership and Europe 
to John Redwood, that's after the news read by Moira Stuart.  
 
NEWS 
 
JOHN HUMPHRYS:                         If there's one thing that the 
Conservative Party could do with now, it's a breathing space - time to apply 
some healing balm to the devastating wounds inflicted in last week's local 
elections. They're not going to get it. More damaging stories in the papers 
today and David Mellor demanding that Cabinet heads should roll. 
 
                                       Next week they launch their manifesto 
for the European elections and three weeks after THAT they face the voters 
again. Mr. Major says that's a prospect he relishes. In which case, say his 
critics, he must know something we don't know because the conventional wisdom 
says he'll take another hammering. If he does the party's divisions over Europe 
will be a big factor.  Now it seems that the Tory Pro - Europeans are beginning 
to shout the odds. 
 
                                       I'll be talking to John Redwood, who's 
seen as one of the most sceptical of the Cabinet sceptics. We also report on 
how truculent backbenchers, unhappy with Mr. Major's leadership, are holding 
fire... for the time being.  
 
                                       But first, the views of the public, 
specifically those voters who supported the Tory Party at the last general 
election. Millions of them have deserted since then. Why? And how do they want 
to see things change? John Rentoul reports.                 
                                    
*****

 
HUMPHRYS:                              So what is the party to do?  Earlier 
this morning I spoke to John Redwood, the Welsh Secretary, and arguably the 
most sceptical member of the Cabinet.  I began by asking him whether it's any 
longer possible for John Major to keep the party together. 
 
JOHN REDWOOD MP:                       Yes, he can, and he must, and it is time 
for everyone to rally, and to put across our strong and clear messages for the 
European election campaign.  It is only the Conservative Party that will defend 
our veto in Europe.  It is only the Conservative Party who will stand up 
against extra taxes being imposed from Brussels.  It is only the Conservative 
Party that takes British interests seriously, and will put them forward 
strongly in Europe.  We need Conservative MEPs to support the excellent work 
government ministers are doing in the Council of Ministers. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              That's the agenda clearly that you would 
like to be discussed, but it isn't the agenda that at the moment is being 
discussed, and Mr Major's problem is that he seems incapable of being able to 
control the agenda. 
 
REDWOOD:                               Well the media are always trying to 
throw us off the scent, but I think it is time now we are entering a 
pre-election period for Europe, for the media to put some of its fire on to 
the Labour and Liberal parties.  You should be inviting them into the studios 
and finding out why they are proposing these absurd policies that would sell 
Britain down the river.  And remember, it's the socialists who are at the 
moment in charge in the European parliament.   So we are the opposition in the 
European parliament, it is very important to have more Conservative voices to 
control some of the undesirable legislation, and to give support to the strong 
voice of British ministers in the Council of Ministers. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              How is Mr Major going to stop the 
leadership speculation? 
 
REDWOOD:                               Well he must press on with his job as he 
is doing, he has a united cabinet that signed up on Thursday without any 
dissenting voice to an extremely good manifesto, which is going to set out 
clearly the things I've just been saying to you, because we want a Europe that 
creates more jobs, which is friendly to business, which encourages more 
investment, which is geared to more prosperity for the peoples of western 
Europe, not a petty-fogging bureaucratic squabbling Europe where too much power 
is taken to the centre and jobs and prosperity are destroyed.  That is a 
winning message, and one which the Prime Minister will be putting forward very 
strongly from manifesto launch onwards. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Let's assume that he wants to stop the 
leadership speculation, and that's a reasonable assumption.  Wasn't it a great 
mistake for him to appear outside Number Ten, as he did on Friday morning, and 
acknowledge openly that a leadership challenge is on the cards? 
 
REDWOOD:                               Well, there had just been a statement 
from a backbench MP.  He dealt with it very strongly and firmly, he said that 
he is the Prime Minister, he intends to carry on, it is now the time of all men 
and women of goodwill in the Conservative Party to accept that fact and get 
down to the business in hand.  We need to spend the next few weeks on the 
doorsteps, meeting people, talking to them, listening to their concerns.  Of 
course accepting that there are criticisms of some things the government 
has been doing, things that we need to put right, or where we need to take 
things further.  But we also need to get across our very clear messages because 
I believe our European campaign will strike a chord with people on the merits 
of the case. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              But he dealt with it in the sort of 
language that a fighter, that a boxer might use if he was trying to talk up the 
gate. 
 
REDWOOD:                               Well I don't think that's quite true.  I 
think he wanted.... 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Well you heard what he said? 
 
REDWOOD:                               Yes, I heard what he said.  I think he 
just wanted to.... 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              'I'm here, I'm ready for it, I'm ready 
for a fight..." 
 
REDWOOD:                               ....get it out of the way, make it 
very clear that he is the Prime Minister, he is the leader, he has work to do, 
and I think now we should put that behind us, it is not an issue for the next 
few weeks, and we should just get on with the work in hand which is the 
question of the serious elections on Europe, and putting across these vital 
points, which are of great concern to the nation, not just to the future of the 
Tory Party. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              But what he said was bound to be seen,
as it was seen, as an acknowledgement that his position was under threat, or 
at least under attack.  That wasn't a very sensible thing to do, was it? 
 
REDWOOD:                               I think it was just an acknowledgement 
that one backbench MP had raised this question.  It clearly had happened, it 
was a fact, and so he dismissed it in the way you'd expect from someone who is 
in his prime and wishes to get on with the job. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              But he's never felt the need to go on 
the offensive in quite that way before, and it did make him look rather as if 
he was rattled, didn't it? 
 
REDWOOD:                               Well, I don't think we've had before a 
backbencher explicitly saying that he was thinking of running against the Prime 
Minister.... 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              You've had backbenchers saying he ought 
to go, haven't you? 
 
REDWOOD:                               .....in a future leadership election.  
Well, that's a slightly different statement, and so the Prime Minister was just 
making it very clear to that particular member of parliament that he is the 
Prime Minister and wishes to remain as the Prime Minister. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              What if this speculation goes on till 
November? 
 
REDWOOD:                               Well, I don't believe in discussing 
hypothetical questions.  I am interested in the issues that matter to the 
British people, and I think the media should also get interested in them, 
because like it or not, after the European elections the Conservative Party 
will still be governing the country.  The issue in the European elections is do 
you have a right of centre or a left of centre majority in that Parliament, 
which is a big issue.  Do you want people in that Parliament who will actually 
block some of the job destroying measures that the Socialists dream up, or will 
you have a group of people in that Parliament egging them on?  Will you have a 
group of people fighting for Britain or not, that is the issue? 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              But so is the leadership of the Tory 
Party, a very important issue, and the speculation is going to go on until 
November?  There's no way you can stop it, is there? 
 
REDWOOD:                               That is not the issue of this election.  
The choice before the voters is a choice about who they want representing them 
in the European parliament, and the attempt by the media and a few others to 
get us off that agenda is very destructive of democracy.  The issue before our 
democracy in the next few weeks is who will be our properly elected 
representatives in that parliament.  So let's discuss those issues.  Let's 
discuss what kind of a Europe we want.  Let's discuss the issue of taxation, of 
green policy, of job policies, of social policy in Europe, because those things 
are going to be settled within the Council of Ministers, and the European 
parliament has some power to endorse them. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              But you say the attempt by the media to 
get you off these issues, it isn't just...the media doesn't actually make 
these things up, the media reports what it is being told, and it's being told 
by a very large number of people, inside the Tory Party, that there are deep 
concerns about the leadership.  And this is going to go on and on, and what 
you're not able to do it seems, is offer any suggestions as to how you can head 
this off. 
 
REDWOOD:                               But I am telling you what we're doing, 
and you're also being told by a large number of Conservatives that we want to 
fight a positive campaign in Europe, and that there are big issues to be 
discussed, and that every time I come into a studio to talk about those issues 
- what kind of a Europe do we want, how do we create more jobs - you're always 
trying to wobble me off it and say 'Well we want to talk about what might 
happen in November, or what might happen in three years time'.  Well let's get 
on with the immediate task in hand, which is what is going to happen in the 
next two or three weeks. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              But you see it isn't just me that wants, 
as you put it, to wobble you off.  We saw David  Mellor this morning just a few 
hours ago, volunteering what he thought Mr Major might do, and he put it quite 
bluntly, 'sack Michael Portillo'. 
 
REDWOOD:                               Well you always get the odd backbencher 
with very strong views... 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Ex-Cabinet minister. 
 
REDWOOD:                               It's a right of any democracy for them 
to speak out, but the party as a whole is interested in winning.  The 
Conservative Party has a long tradition of winning by adjusting to the views of 
people and sticking to certain core principles.  That's exactly what we have to 
do now.  People have told us in the district elections that there are things 
that they would like improved or changed in the way central government is 
run in the country, and that is something we will heed, because of course we 
listen as well as lead.  But when it comes to the European things, I believe 
that we are striking a chord with the British public, and the important thing 
for us is to do enough work ahead of those elections to persuade people that 
they actually matter, that it is important to vote, and that they should vote 
on the merits of the European case and not on the issues about central 
government. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              But you don't want to listen to 
ex-cabinet ministers and people who are very close the the Prime Minister, such 
as David Mellor, who says 'let's see a bit of blood on the carpet, "pour 
encourager les autres", as you put it. 
 
REDWOOD:                               Well, that is the decision of the Prime 
Minister, who he has in his Cabinet.  I saw a united Cabinet last Thursday sign 
up to a very impressive European manifesto that I am proud to join and to 
co-sign as one of the people who will be helping lead the campaign with special 
responsibilities in Wales, and the task in hand is to get across those messages 
to the British public. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              And we'll come to that in a minute, but 
let's just stay for a moment, if we may, with this question of how Mr Major 
heads off the speculation about his leadership and deals with this particular 
problem.  You say that you don't think he ought to sack anybody, you certainly 
don't think he ought to sack Mr Portillo. 
 
REDWOOD:                               I didn't say anything of the sort, I 
said ... 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Well, let me ask you directly.  Do you 
think he ought to sack Mr Portillo? 
 
REDWOOD:                               I said that is a matter for the Prime 
Minister but I will tell you how he can head off the problems as you describe 
them - which I have not accepted in the way you've put them, and that ... 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              What, you don't accept that the Party is 
divided? 
 
REDWOOD:                               ... and that is to run a good election 
campaign for the European elections and to surprise people by doing better than 
the very low expectations there are now around. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Well, indeed, and one way of doing ... 
 
REDWOOD:                               And that is what I wish to help the 
Prime Minister do, which is why I am keen to talk about Europe and the issues 
before us in that election. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              But it doesn't surprise you that people 
want to talk about the leadership because it is such a live issue and it's 
something that preoccupies MPs, Members of the Conservative Party, Chairmen of 
constituencies, time and time again.  I talked to a very senior back-bencher 
the other day who said: "I can't go into the tea rooms any longer because if I 
go into the tea rooms they think I'm stirring up trouble over the leadership." 
 
REDWOOD:                               Well in my own constituency they are not 
talking about this, they are talking about the success we had in the local 
elections because we put in a lot of hard work and we actually made a nett 
gain, strengthened the Conservative hold in Wokingham, and we are now talking 
about how... 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Pretty rare experience! 
 
REDWOOD:                               Well, but there were some good results 
around the country and where we managed to keep it to local issues and motivate 
our electors they came out and supported us because there are examples of very 
good local councillors and councillors around the country in Conservative 
control.  And of course we held some of our flagship councils because of that 
and what we are now talking about in the Wokingham constituency - not all the 
issuees you've been trying to put before me today - we are talking about the 
big things in Europe: What kind of a Europe do we want?  How can we resist the 
move to federalism in the Liberal and Labour parties? 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              I promise you that I am going to come on 
to that. 
 
REDWOOD:                               You don't, you just want to talk about 
all this other old nonsense. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Yes I do, we have plenty of time yet.  
This is a sensible, long interview and plenty of time, but you are not going to 
suggest to me that who leads the Tory Party - the Prime Minister of this 
country - is not an important issue and there is serious... 
 
REDWOOD:                               It's a very important issue and we have 
a leader, we elected him, the country endorsed him in a big general election 
victory and I am happy with that and I want to get on and follow his lead. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              You are happy with that but there are 
many people in your Party who are not happy with that, who are deeply concerned 
about Mr Major's ability to unite the party behind him.  Now there's another 
suggestion this morning from Lord Parkinson and that is that Mr Heseltine, who 
many people speak of as an alternative leader, should become Chairman of the 
Party.  Might that perhaps be a sensible way of easing this problem? 
 
REDWOOD:                               I'm not in the reshuffle game.  We are a 
few weeks away from a very important election.  We have a united Cabinet who 
want to get out and sell the manifesto.  That is the work in hand and my job is 
to put across why Conservative government is better at all levels - and I 
believe it is and I believe we need to get across that message, because clearly 
people have some worries at the moment which they expressed very forcibly in 
many parts of the country on Thursday in the district and borough elections. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              All right.  Well let's talk about Europe 
then, you were very enthusiastic to do that.  The reality is that your Party is 
hopelessly divided over Europe. 
 
REDWOOD:                               The reality is that only the 
Conservative Party believes there have to be limits to the moves to federalism 
in Europe and there has to be a limit to the amount of power that is 
transferred from the British Parliament to Brussels.  And it is the Labour, 
Liberal and Nationalist parties who would give it all away, sell us out, sell 
us down the river.  They would get rid of our veto on immigration, for example, 
which is something that matters a great deal to the British people.  They would 
probably get rid of our veto on a number of tax measures.  I think they would 
sign up, they have voted in the past for massive increases in expenditure from 
Brussels that would need financing.  The socialist members in the European 
Parliament from Britain actually voted for a huge spending package increase, 
which fortunately didn't go through, which would have meant four hundred pounds 
a head extra from every household in Britain - a huge increase in tax burden 
because of their spending ambitions.  These are the things that need talking 
about. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              If your Party is united on Europe, why 
can't you stop people arguing then? 
 
REDWOOD:                               Well, in a healthy democratic party 
there are always nuances and friendly disagreements.  That's no surprise. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Nuances? They don't sound terribly 
friendly and they don't sound like nuances! 
 
REDWOOD:                               If you turned your fire to the Labour 
Party you would find they have much bigger divisions on the subject of Europe 
because they have some who would leave Europe tomorrow given half the chance, 
get out of the union, out of the community and others who would have a federal 
state tomorrow given half the chance.  But because you are not interested in 
the Labour Party at the moment... 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Well the Labour Party isn't in power at 
the moment and I'm talking about you at the moment and when I talk to the 
Labour Party about Europe I shall put these points to them. 
 
REDWOOD:                               But the Socialists are in power in the 
European Parliament and it's time that you and your colleagues started teasing 
out from them why they voted in the way they have, very often voting to sell 
Britain out and to impose more spending in tax on us. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              The fact is about the only thing you 
within the Cabinet - you say that you have a manifesto with which you agree on 
- but that's a manifesto of the lowest common denominators, isn't it?  About 
the only thing you agree on is telling everybody they ought to vote 
Conservative.  I mean, there is so little agreement even within the Cabinet. 
 
REDWOOD:                               That's not true.  The Cabinet agrees on 
a very positive programme for Europe.  We know exactly the kind of Europe we 
want.  An open free trade Europe, a Europe that recognises its trade and 
responsibilities in the rest of the world, a Europe that cuts down on 
bureaucracy and red tape rather than voting for more of it in the way in which 
Socialists have time and time again in the European Parliament; a Europe which 
is open for business not a Europe which suffocates national identity. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              But the problem is you cannot agree on 
the sort of Europe you want to see.  Mr Portillo himself caused serious 
divisions, added I should say to the serious divisions, with what he had to say 
last week. 
 
REDWOOD:                               But I am just telling you that we were 
all entirely at one on a very detailed and good manifesto which sets out a 
positive vision for the kind of Europe we want and attacks hard the very 
negative federal vision that the Socialists of all kinds, Labour and Liberal, 
would impose on this country given half the chance. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              So you were entirely at one with Mr 
Portillo when he said that a single European currency would mean the end of the 
British Government, in effect? 
 
REDWOOD:                               I believe that Michael is right to say 
that were we to have a single currency it would obviously transfer powers and 
responsibilities from British institutions, under the British Parliament, to 
European institutions.  That's quite self-evident, no-body disagrees with that 
I would have thought. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              He went rather further than that.     
 
REDWOOD:                               The issue is when do you decide?  when 
do you need to decide? and then how do you decide if there is a serious 
possibility of a single currency in Western Europe?  And the Government's 
position is very clear on this.  There is no need to decide because there isn't 
at the moment a serious proposition to create a single currency today, tomorrow 
or in a few months time.  When we get to the point - if we get to the point - 
that Western Europe as a whole is ready for a single currency, we will then 
have to decide at that point what our conclusion is, whether we recommend it or 
recommend against it to the British Parliament. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              But you can't simply sweep this under 
the carpet, can you?  because this is an absolutely fundamental matter of 
principle.  It's going to determine the way Britain and Europe goes for 
generations to come. 
 
REDWOOD:                               It is a very big issue.  We're not 
sweeping it under the carpet. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              But you're saying there's no need to 
decide yet. 
 
REDWOOD:                               Well, there isn't.  Because there isn't 
a proposition. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              You don't have a view on it Mr Redwood? 
 
REDWOOD:                               There is no proposition.  I don't have a 
view on something which hasn't yet come forward as a firm proposition. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Really? 
 
REDWOOD:                               No. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              You literally do not have a view on 
whether Britain should sign up to a single currency in Europe? 
 
REDWOOD:                               I will have a view when there is a firm 
proposition from Europe inviting us to say yes or no.  If you said to me to 
day, "Would you like to get rid of the pound and have the ECU tomorrow", the 
answer is clearly no.  Of course I don't want that. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              But it is in the ... 
 
REDWOOD:                               But you're making my point for me.  
You're saying there isn't a proposition. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              No, no, I'm saying precisely the 
opposite.  It is in the Maastricht Treaty.  That is a fundamental aspect of the 
way Europe is ultimately going to - you have an opt out for ... 
 
REDWOOD:                               We have an opt out for this very reason, 
that we don't think there is yet a firm enough proposal that we can judge.  
When there is a firm enough proposal we'll all have strong views - I'm sure 
I'll have a very strong view and I will argue my case and we'll then see what 
the government concludes... 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              So you're quite open minded at the 
moment as to whether there should be a single European currency or not?  You 
... 
 
REDWOOD:                               I'm saying no to a single currency 
tomorrow because there isn't a sensible proposal and we made it very clear that 
we think economies have to come together, their inflation rates, their 
unemployment rates, their deficits and so forth have to be much closer together 
before you could risk a single currency, but then there's a separate issue.  If 
you got to that point would you want one?  And that is an issue which we will 
settle when there is a proposition, if there's a proposition. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              So when the people on the doorstep say 
to you, "Mr Redwood, I'm worried, because people like you have told me over the 
years that I should be worried about British sovereignty in Europe, but I'm 
worried about this single European currency thing.   You say, "Don't worry 
about it, no need to worry about it, beause it's something we can decide much 
later".  That's what you tell them is it? 
 
REDWOOD:                               Yes, and I say that I'm of course very 
keen to defend British sovereignty, that is obvious and only the Conservative 
Party will preserve the vetoes over crucial matters like the single currency, 
and like immigration policy and tax policy which the Labour and Liberal parties 
would throw away.   So it would be quite bizarre of someone to go and vote 
Liberal in the European elections because they were worried that the 
Conservatives might give away too much ground, because they'd give away the 
whole thing immediately. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              So Mr Portillo was quite wrong to give 
the kind of direct answer he gave to the sort of direct questions I've just 
been asking you, last week? 
 
REDWOOD:                               Michael Portillo was quite right to say 
that a single currency were we to enter one would be a big transfer of 
responsibilities.. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Oh, but he.... 
 
REDWOOD:                               ....to Europe. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              He went much further than that. 
 
REDWOOD:                               But Michael well knows that the 
government's line is very clear on this.  We all are agreed that there isn't 
yet a proposal on the table and so you can't say yes or no to something which 
isn't a formal proposal.  There's no need to. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              You know and I know that he went a good 
deal further than that.  Was he right to go further. 
 
REDWOOD:                               Well, I've made my own statement and I 
am happy to have made that statement.  I am very clear that I don't willingly 
surrender British sovereignty but I will have an open mind should there come a 
time when the single currency is more than just a gleam in a few 
Euro-officials' eyes. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Let me give you another quick escape 
clause there on your problems with Europe, and that is the referendum.  Now 
there seems to be a coalescing around this idea that there ought to be a 
referendum.  What's you view on that? 
 
REDWOOD:                               Well, I think... 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              That's to say of course not a referendum 
about staying in Europe but a referendum ... 
 
REDWOOD:                               No, this has move on.  I think there was 
an argument about a referendum on Maastricht and that has gone, that's an issue 
that is now behind us.   Now some people are saying we should have a 
referendum before entering a single currency.  Well, I would give you the same 
answer to that I've just given you on the whole question of the single 
currency, let's wait and see. There is no proposal on the table. It may be 
many years away, it may never happen. I find it very difficult to believe that 
Greece and Germany are within the space of the next few years going to sign up 
to a single currency together.  It requires all sorts of other decisions to be 
made. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              So you're not saying no to a referendum? 
 
REDWOOD:                               The Germans would have to spend a lot of 
money subsidising Greece in order for them to live happily together in a single 
currency area. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              You're not saying no to a referendum in 
short. 
 
REDWOOD:                               I'm not saying yes or no to a 
referendum, I'm saying you have to wait and see when you get a big enough 
issue. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              Final thought then.   In 1983 the Labour 
Party had an unpopular leader - it was preoccupied with internal philosophical 
arguments and it got twenty-eight per cent in the election, the same as the 
Liberal Democrats.  That is precisely the situation that you, the Tory Party, 
find yourself in today.  How long is it going to take you?  It took them ten 
years to sort that lot out.  How long is it going to take you? 
 
REDWOOD:                               It's a very different position.  They 
then had a lot of loony lefties who were disrupting the party and its 
organisation, they had a lot of wrong policies and wrong themes that needed to 
be dumped, and it took them a long time to try and get rid of those.  We today 
have had disappointing results last Thursday.  There's a message there for us 
about national policy.  I believe that by the time we get to the next general 
election people will be a lot happier with our national policies just as I 
believe that in the European elections it's vital that people concentrate on 
the big European issues. 
 
HUMPHRYS:                              John Redwood thank you very much. 
 

 
 
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