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ON THE RECORD
RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION: BBC-1 DATE: 12.12.93
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JOHN HUMPHRYS: Good afternoon. As the politicians were
setting off home from Brussels yesterday, leaving their civil servants to find
the language for a peace agreement in Northern Ireland, the gunmen were setting
off on yet another murderous mission. Two more deaths. How many more before
that agreement becomes a reality? As the talks between the British and Irish
Governments enter their final stages I'll be asking the Irish Prime Minister
about the obstacles that still remain.
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But first, Ireland. By the end of this
week we should know whether the British and Irish governments have found the
key which - to use John Hume's words - will unlock the door to peace in
Northern Ireland. By the time Mr. Major and Mr. Reynolds left Brussels
yesterday afternoon it had become clear that real differences still remain
between them. And Mr. Reynolds was insisting that he wouldn't be prepared to
put his signature to anything for the sake of an agreement.
I spoke to him in Brussels just before
he left for Dublin and asked him what was the least he would accept.
ALBERT REYNOLDS: A joint statement that I believe will
command the support of both communities in Northern Ireland and indeed would
hopefully, draw the attention of the two sides that are engaged in the
paramilitary violence and that, hopefully, they might see their way to cease
violence and turn back to the political process.
HUMPHRYS: So if it was ending up as a fairly bland
document, you'd be unhappy about that?
REYNOLDS: I would be unhappy because I think what
the objective of the exercise and I think John Major would be equally unhappy -
I think, the objective of the exercise - for both of us - is to try and produce
a statement that will have enough in it to..not to prejudice the future of
anybody. Not to predetermine the future of either community. But, at the same
time, would point the direction in which the two governments would like to see
the affairs of Northern Ireland taking the future. That we would have a new
beginning and that the starting point for that new beginning would be a
permanent cessation of violence. In other words, peace.
That's the objective of both Prime
Ministers and I don't think any of us want to end up with just a bland
statement that won't..that hasn't a reasonable chance of success to attain the
objectives that I have set out for it.
HUMPHRYS: So, if it were to be little more than a
restatement of known positions - it may be finessed a little bit - you
wouldn't sign that?
REYNOLDS: Well, it's not a question of what I
will, or not will sign here, on a television programme. It's a question of how
far both of us and both the Governments can come down the line to create a
situation in which we hope that the paramilitaries would respond to, on the one
hand. And, that the two communities would give strong support to, because at
the end of the day we're dealing with people here.
It's not just what John Major would like
to have in the statement, or what I would like to have in the statement. It's
basically the objective is: how can we direct a message up there that would be
listened to and that will point a new direction for Northern Ireland for the
two communities in Northern Ireland, while, at the same time doesn't threaten
their futures or indeed predetermine their futures.
In other words, taking account of the
fears and the suspicions that have been expressed over..over some time now that
we might be engaged in some underhand deal, or under the counter arrangement,
or something - no. What we want to do is do it out in the open. Everybody can
see where we want the communities in Northern Ireland to go, in the future and
to provide the environment in which they can sit down and discuss their future
and agree their future and that both governments then will support that new
arrangement, whatever they may agree.
HUMPHRYS: Because you are under a good deal of
pressure to reach some sort of agreement, aren't you? If you fail...
REYNOLDS: What I've said on a number of occasions,
that I would much prefer to have tried and failed than not to have tried at
all. I think, it's an honourable thing to try. It's an honourable thing to
look at a very complex situation that has for hundreds of years marred the
relationships between the peoples of..of Great Britain and Ireland and it's not
going to be simple and it's not going to be a quick fix.
But I mean in regards to failure, in
that regard, I mean I have tried and I'm going to continue to try and I don't
contemplate failure because, I think, there's such a strong mood for peace, in
both communities. And, such strong support throughout the length and breadth
of Ireland and indeed with the people of Britain that I believe there is an
opportunity there, now, to try and test it, to explore it, to grasp it and
hopefully, that we can get the proper response that will see the end of
violence.
HUMPHRYS: But, there is still this enormously
complex and difficult circle to square, isn't there? Satisfying Nationalist
aspirations without terrifying the Unionists, to the extent that we see greater
violence even than there has been.
REYNOLDS: Well, I wouldn't expect to be greater
violence. I mean, we have had a very bad bout of violence about four or five
weeks ago. Thankfully, we have had a de-escalation since. But, what we want
to see is a document that doesn't threaten either, doesn't threaten either
side, doesn't threaten their future. And, that when it's on the table, they
will see it in that light. We don't aim in this document to settle all the
problems in Northern Ireland.
What we aim to do is try and get a
cessation of violence and create the environment for the people and the leaders
of the communities on all sides to sit around the table and see what they can
agree on. In the happy knowledge that both governments will accept and support
whatever the people agree on. So, it is not a question of trying to threaten
one, or take one over, or coerce one group into the other.
I think, what has to be accepted is that
any system for the future has to command the support and allegiance of both
communities. That we can't have one dominating the other, or seeking to
dominate the other. I think, everybody has seen the futility of the last
twenty-five years and they want a new direction and a new way forward.
HUMPHRYS: Would it be helpful if Mr Major brought
a little more pressure to bear on the Unionist community, if he were to be a
little less neutral, perhaps?
REYNOLDS: I'm not going to dictate to Mr....
how he should handle this situation. I think, both of us understand
quite clearly and have a very good personal understanding of the objective that
we are trying to achieve. I think, what we want to do is get the talks process
going, eventually that can go into the complexity of the problems. But that,
at this stage, what we want to do is to create a cessation of violence, that
peace takes over and then a different environment for agreement will follow
that and that's going to take some time. I don't anticipate that we're
going to find an easy solution to the complex problems that are there. But I
think people themselves, in an atmosphere of peace and a permanent cessation of
violence will go a long way to a deal...signal a new way forward for
themselves.
HUMPHRYS: You, yourselves - obviously - could push
that process forward, as far as the Unionists were concerned, if you were to
say, at this stage, we renounce Articles Two and Three of the Constitution.
REYNOLDS: That wouldn't solve the problem and I
think if we're looking or listening to Unionist speakers in recent times, they
accept my position as an open and honest position where I have said
that in the event of an overall settlement the Irish Government will ask the
Irish people to consider a change in the constitution in relation to whatever
agreement or whatever the appropriate changes are. I think everybody accepts
that that's my position, it's an open position, it's an honest position and
many Unionist people have said it to me and indeed, some of the political
leaders have said it as well.
HUMPHRYS: When one listens to you now Taoiseach,
it's difficult to see how the situation has changed, if I'd spoken to you a
month ago - indeed, I did speak to you a month ago - if I'd spoken to you six
months ago, you'd have been saying very much the same. It's difficult to see
where either you or the British government is shifting towards so that you can
meet in the middle.
REYNOLDS: Well I think that you know this is what
negotiation is all about. This is what, you know, two governments that
understand exactly what objectives they're trying to achieve and are headed in
the same direction, that indeed, understand the sensitivities of it and the
fears and suspicions of both communities in relation to this, that's
understandable. But we can't tell you, unfortunately, everything that we're
saying to each other or agreeing with each other. I think that when the
process of negotiation is finished and when hopefully the statement that will
be published at the end of it, hopefully that will command support, I think
then everybody will see where we're trying to get to.
HUMPHRYS: I know you can't tell me the problems
with that particular statement but perhaps you can just help a little more with
the kind of statement it is, what it actually sets out to do, ultimately to end
the violence, of course.
REYNOLDS: Well it's going to point in a new
direction and you know hopefully the people will see it the same way as the two
governments see it and I think it is important that the two governments set out
very clearly in a joint statement how they do see the future and where they
want people to sit down and work out their future. Future by agreement not by
coercion, not by violence. In other words, that there can be no change in the
standards in Northern Ireland without the consent of a majority there. That's
written in there, I mean this is accepted and it's accepted that the
Nationalists have an identity and the Unionists have an identity. They both
have different cultures, they have different traditions and it's a complex area
to try and work out and it'll take some time in talks between all the
communities, hopefully in a peaceful environment but those complexities have
to put down at the table, because a system that doesn't command support of a
very significant minority in any country. If you have a system that doesn't
command the support of a very significant minority in any country, it
won't work and it's as simple as that. It hasn't worked in the past, we want
to try and look at it for the future and provide the people of Northern Ireland
with a chance to live a better way of life for themselves for the next twenty
five years.
HUMPHRYS: The implication of that is that Britain
must acknowledge the value of a united Ireland ultimately.
REYNOLDS: Well I know that that phrase has been
used in a document that was leaked to an Irish newspaper. Those issues are
issues for the talks process, they're not issues to be addressed in this peace
initiative that we're talking about. Those are issues... all complexities
about institutional frameworks and all that for the future as to who does what,
where, all of that are for the talks process. We're trying to keep those
issues away from the peace initiative so they'll be no complexities, keep it
simple but I do know that those type of issues raise fears in different
people's minds, they have different views on them. We're not getting involved
in that at this stage, we want first of all to try and get peace.
HUMPHRYS: So you quite clearly separate the talks
process from the peace process and you have Mr Major's support in that
approach?
REYNOLDS: Very clearly we..I have..we're both
agreed on where we're actually going. We're first of all trying for a peace
initiative but at the same time Sir Patrick Mayhew and his ministers indeed are
also trying, in bilateral talks with the political leaders in Northern Ireland
to try and move them towards a common, a certain amount of common agreement,
enough to take them back to the conference table. When they're satisfied they
have achieved that the talks process will reconvene.
HUMPHRYS: So the British Government has moved in
your direction to that extent at any rate?
REYNOLDS: Yes. That we're dealing with the peace
initiative separately, we're dealing with the talks initiative hopefully as
soon as we're ready to start them. They're not in competition with each other,
those two processes, they're complimentary to each other. If we succeeded in
getting a permanent cessation of violence undoubtedly the talks process would
have a much better chance of success.
HUMPHRYS: If you fail, is there not the danger
that the reaction of the IRA - the men of violence - will be "it has all been
tried now, all we can do is go back to the bomb and the gun."
REYNOLDS: Well I would hope not because we
have...we've had a generation of it now. The next generation will be looking
and questioning the whole validity I would say, or the whole movement, as to
where they should go in the future. I think they do have an opportunity now in
time to ajoin the political process, to take their seats at the table and
indeed the community, the Nationalist community and indeed the Unionist
community, both communities want the men of violence on both sides to turn
away, to stop it, turn away from it and I hope that that moral pressure is
building all the time on the men of violence and that we, in turn, will be able
as governments to give them the opportunity to come away from violence and the
opportunity to get themselves into the political process.
HUMPHRYS: And finally, the last time we spoke, you
said "peace by Christmas was a real possibility" - you still believe that?
REYNOLDS: It's coming very near Christmas,
Christmas is a time of peace, we would like to think and both Prime Ministers
would like to think that we could finish it in time for Christmas but indeed we
can't be..put under too much pressure on time because what's important is the
end result and that is peace.
HUMPHRYS: Taoiseach, thank you very much indeed.
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