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ON THE RECORD
RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION: BBC-1 DATE: 7.11.93
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JOHN HUMPHRYS: Good afternoon and welcome to On The
Record. Are we at an historic crossroads in the long struggle over Northern
Ireland? I'll be talking to Albert Reynolds, the Irish Prime Minister.
On Thursday, John Hume told the Prime Minister
that his talks with Gerry Adams had revealed
the greatest opportunity for peace in Northern Ireland for twenty years. He
said afterwards they could bring peace within a week. But both John Major and,
perhaps more suprisingly, the Irish Prime Minister, Albert Reynolds, damned him
with faint praise and say they have embarked on their own odyssey. What are
they up to? Martha Kearney has been to Ireland to find out.
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HUMPHRYS: Martha Kearney reporting. Well
yesterday I went to Dublin to interview Albert Reynolds as he prepared to
address that Fianna Fail conference. By the way, when he talks about Articles
Two and Three of the Irish Constitution, he is referring of course to the
contentious claim that the Republic has rights to the territory of the six
counties of Northern Ireland. But I began by asking him if the Hume/Adams
process was indeed dead.
TAOISEACH ALBERT REYNOLDS: John Hume has been most of his life
working for peace, working for constitutional politics, he has advanced some
principles on which a future formula for peace could be built upon. He knows,
and he has said so, that it is now a matter for two governments to take up the
initiative, see can we put a formula for peace together. That's precisely what
the British Prime Minister, John Major, and myself have indicated quite clearly
in our joint communique from Brussels last Friday night. Both of us are
working towards that end.
HUMPHRYS: So, at the moment, as we speak, it no
longer exists. It has done its work.
REYNOLDS: It has done its work in that it has
created an environment for peace in the North of Ireland, a peace that
everybody wants, a peace that everybody yearns for. Both communities, all the
messages I get from both communities - and I get quite a lot - are saying the
one thing, just a single word: peace. Peace is what's required. We can't wait
for the political process to try and solve all the problems that are there to
be solved. But the one thing that we do want - and we want it now - is peace.
HUMPHRYS: And you're quite clear that any
initiative has to be undertaken only by the two Governments - by yourself and
Mr Major?
REYNOLDS: That's the position. And, I think, the
logic of the position dictates that that's the way it has to be. If you were
to come forward with the initiative we would listen to you, we would hear what
you had to say. As, indeed, we have heard from many others and I have been
taking soundings for quite some time, way back. This is not a new development
as far as John Major and myself are concerned. As far back as the first night
we sat down together, after I was elected Taoiseach, we then decided between
ourselves that if there was one thing we would try to do - while we were still
Prime Ministers - and that would be to try and find a formula for peace. We've
been talking about it, we have been tossing forward back ideas between
ourselves. And, indeed, the upsurge of violence now demands that both of us
must try and bring it to finality. And, that's what I believe we intend to do.
HUMPHRYS: But John Hume said that if you and Mr
Major acted upon his initiative there could be peace within a week.
REYNOLDS: Well, I'd like to think there could be
peace in Ireland within a week. It's a more complex problem, in my view, than
that.
HUMPHRYS: So John Hume is wrong.
REYNOLDS: I'm not saying-I'm not saying. People
can take lines out of-out of speeches that anyone's making, take lines out of
any interviews that-that one-people make either.
HUMPHRYS: But he was quite sincere about that.
REYNOLDS: Well, that's the point I'm going to say.
There is no person in the North of Ireland more sincere about trying to get
peace than John Hume. It's been- I have no doubt about that and he is the
leader of a Nationalist, the best leader they've had. They would tell you
themselves, for the past twenty five years. He's been working for peace. He's
been working for constitutional politics. He has always said that you must
understand the fears and suspicions of the other community. So, he's a proper
rounded balanced peace seeker, and nobody should ever doubt his credentials in
that regard.
HUMPHRYS: But is he right?
REYNOLDS: What he is saying-I-I-I can't say what's
in John Hume's mind, when he says something like that. I'd like to know
exactly what 'tis based on and only then could I give you an honest answer.
HUMPRHYS: But you have talked to him. You've been
briefed on what he has to say and-and the- the content of his talks with Gerry
Adams.
REYNOLDS: The contents. I have spoken to him. He
has given both the Tanaiste and myself a report of his talks. We evaluated
that, we see it as-as a- pointing the finger at principles that can form part
of a peace formula. There are other parts that have to be inputted into it, as
well. And, that's why he says, quite clearly, that it is a matter for the two
governments to take up the initiative and run with it. In other words, as
Seamus Mallon said the other night, for the two Prime Ministers and the two
governments to now run with the ball. We have to make our own evaluation, we
have to make our own assessment of the situation and we have to come forward
with what we believe would command support across both communities.
HUMPHRYS: So, at the very least, when he says
peace within a week is possible, he is being a little simplistic.
REYNOLDS: I think, it's being simplistic. I
don't- I'm not aware of a basis that would bring peace within a week. I'd like
to think it was true and if it is true I-I'm sure we'll hear more from John
Hume on it.
HUMPHRYS: You are more optimistic now than you
have been in the past, is that fair to say?
REYNOLDS: Well, I've been looking for peace for
quite some time. I mean, anybody who has read my speeches, from the first day
I was elected as leader of Fianna Fail and, indeed, as Taoiseach of the
country, I think, I have put this word right up there all the time. I'll put
it up there in lights. I want people to concentrate on it, I want people to
focus on it. I believe now that an atmosphere has been created over a period
of time where both communities are now yearning for peace. Both communities
are saying: Look, can we not produce a formula and, so, one way or another
they can produce peace. Those are the messages I'm getting. I have people
from the North of Ireland coming to see me every week. I don't advertise the
fact. I see people in confidence, because that's the way you have to handle
that-that problem that's there. By saying too much, by trying to say you are
meeting this person or that person can put that person in a wrong position. A
lot of work, hard work, has been put in behind the scenes. And, keep the
confidence of people, keep the confidentiality of certain things that you're
told, and my overall assessment is that there is an opportunity for peace and
it's now up to the two governments to grasp it. It'll take courage, it'll take
a lot of conviction, but I now believe we now have a chance - the best chance
we have had for a long, long time - and it's up to to us to grasp it.
HUMPHRYS: And, is that belief based at least
partly on an impression, or more than that, perhaps, that the IRA is now ready,
indeed, anxious, to stop the war, to stop the violence?
REYNOLDS: Well, they're saying this morning that,
you know, if they could be sure that the other people had stopped the violence
they would stop. And, when you go to the other side, they're saying much the
same thing. I think that-
HUMPRHYS: But that we've heard for a long time,
that sort of talk.
REYNOLDS: You've had that for a long time but
you've never had the upsurge of support for peace from both sides of the-of the
divide up in the the North of Ireland as you have now. And, I'm sure, if
you've been over there, you would know exactly what I'm saying. I've been
saying that over the last three to four months, people are now beginning to
talk openly about it. They want to see that opportunity grasped. The-the-the
mood is there and I believe the mood has been there and been building for some
time. I know that there are political leaders up there that maybe would not
admit that or, maybe, wouldn't say it's there but I know it's there. I know.
I go up to the North of Ireland. I know, I've plenty of friends in the North
of Ireland from all sides. They come down here, I see them, I talk to them,
they write to me, they 'phone me up. I know exactly the way the mood is
building. I was in Derry, not that long ago, and I talked to people from both
sides of the divide. So, my assessment - and it's my assessment I'm talking
about - is that there is an opportunity there that should be grasped.
HUMPHRYS: But if you'd gone to Derry yesterday, if
you went to Derry this morning, you might find, on the part of the
Nationalists, a great mood of anger, that they see John Hume as having been in
some way betrayed, in what he set out to do.
REYNOLDS: Well, I wouldn't like anybody to think
that anybody would betrayed-would betray John Hume because he's the last man in
the world I would betray - no way would I do that. The people of Derry know
John Hume for twenty-five years. I know him all my lifetime as well. I
wouldn't like to think anybody would think that he'd be betrayed. But, what
you are hearing, coming through from them, is a strong belief and a conviction
that the mood is there for peace and they think, possibly, that others maybe
are not seeing us with the same urgency as John Hume is seeing.
HUMPHRYS: Exactly. They say: Why didn't you seize
on what John Hume was doing with Gerry Adams? Why didn't you welcome it openly
and say we will now act on that?
REYNOLDS: Governments have to do things in their
own way. If you-If you're not in government, you don't have the responsibility
that governments have to take on. And, it's very easy for some people outside
and 'hurlers on the ditches', as we call them in Ireland, to tell you what you
should do, when you should do it and how you should do it. But, we have our
own responsibilities as government. We will do that but anybody who thinks
that we're ignoring the possibility and the opportunity that's there for peace
would be very foolish indeed. That is not the view of John Major, in my
opinion, and it's not- certainly not my view.
HUMPHRYS: Would it have been better if whatever
John Hume was doing with Gerry Adams had continued but with that- without it
being made public, as early as it was?
REYNOLDS: Well, it's not for me to say who John
Hume should talk to, when he should talk to them or how he should talk to
them. John Hume is the leader of the SDLP. He is a leader of a political
Party in his own right. I wouldn't tell him what to do and I would not expect
him to tell me what to do.
HUMPHRYS: What do you now believe it would take,
in political terms, for the IRA to say: yes, that is a significant move
forward?
REYNOLDS: Well, I think the worst thing I could do
would be to try and use the media or the airwaves or the television screens,
for to try and do negotiations with anybody, or to lay down what people might
believe would be the conditions under which this might stop or that might stop.
That type of work is best done in confidence. It's best done behind the scenes
because you're always- in that type of negotiation, you're always thinking if
you're talking to people, as to how you would negotiate. You can't do that
over television screens. You have to make judgements, you have to listen, you
have to move things. It's a long, painful process. And, to try and solve it
over the airways - although I'd like to think and John would love to know that
the BBC could do it on the airways - I'm sorry, that's not the way it's going
to happen.
HUMPHRYS: But is it essential, at the very least,
to involve Sinn Fein in this process, at this stage?
REYNOLDS: I have said, quite deliberately, and
straightforwardly, that a cessation of violence would provide a seat at the
conference table for Sinn Fein. That has been accepted as the position of
successive Irish Governments. Martin Smith of the Official Unionist Party
endorsed that same principle. I think, that principle is accepted; that if you
want to get rid of the violence, then, you have to direct your attention and
your ideas and your proposals to those that are carrying out the violence.
HUMPHRYS: And does there have to be any sort of
quarantine period? Does it have to be - let us say - five years, perhaps?
REYNOLDS: Well, I heard- I heard Mr Molyneaux say
five years. You know, I don't think we would fall out about the time. But, I
think, five years is a bit unrealistic.
HUMPHRYS: Two years?
REYNOLDS: Well, I'm not in the business of laying
down what it should or shouldn't be. This is the problem with talks. It
doesn't matter whether you're having talks with political Parties, or whether
you're having talks with trade unionists, the worst thing ever you did is lay
down preconditions. If you want to get a solution at the end of the day,
nobody should box themselves into corners and I'm not going to do it on your
programme today.
HUMPHRYS: But you're saying, quite clearly, that
if violence stops, then, Sinn Fein can come to the negotiating table today.
But I ask- I put it like that because Douglas Hurd restated what the British
Government's position has consistently been and that is that once you reach -
if you can reach - a political agreement between the Constitutional Parties
then violence will die because there will no longer be any support for it.
REYNOLDS: Well, first of all, if you don't get the
people that are carrying out the violence to cease violence, then, I don't
believe political talks are going to bring the end to violence. I state my
position, what I believe is the best position, and that is that we try and get
a cessation of violence, that after a period when we're convinced that a
cessation of violence has occurred, in a real manner, then, there is a place at
the table for Sinn Fein. Those are the kind of circumstances in which I see.
That's the rotation of events, as I see them and, I think, that's the rotation
of events that'll bring the results at the end of the day - not the other way
around.
HUMPHRYS: Rather than trying to persuade the
Constitutional Parties to have another go?
REYNOLDS: The Constitutional Parties can sit down
at the table any day and keep going. But, if the violence continues in that
community and certainly at anything like the level we have seen over the last
two weeks, it's unreal to think that political talks can succeed. Because,
first of all, we have to remove the violence and try and get the people and the
suspicions and the fears and everything else. If we don't assuage those and if
we have violence looking in over the negotiators' shoulders, I don't think
you'll get peace that way.
HUMPHRYS: So, what that is saying, quite clearly,
is that there has to be - to put it very crudely - a deal with the IRA.
REYNOLDS: I'm not saying that. I'm not- I mean-
I know what you're trying to do - put words in my mouth. But, fair enough,
what I'm saying is that we have to try and put a set of proposals together,
that in our view - in the two Prime Ministers' view - can command support
across the communities, in the first place and that the men of violence will
see that the road forward is better in that way than the way they have been at
it for twenty-five years without results.
HUMPHRYS: Do you want a united Ireland?
REYNOLDS: I want peace in Ireland. Peace without
a pre-determined future. That's my position. It's as clear as day. Peace
first and, afterwards - for whatever period it takes - to get all the Parties
around the table and let them work out, by agreement among themselves, as to
how they want to live on this island of Ireland, how they can work out the
structures and agree upon them. The way forward for a better living for all
the people. And that comes first, in my honest opinion, and the politics come
second.
HUMPHRYS: And, if the price of that peace is
dropping Articles Two and Three from the Irish Constitution, so be it?
REYNOLDS: I have made it quite clear, on a number
of occasions, and I repeat it here and now, that Articles Two and Three of the
Constitution or any Constitutional change can be part of - while everything is
on the table. And, in the event of an agreement on the future of this island
then, we, as an Irish Government, would ask the Irish people if they want to
change Articles Two and Three in those circumstances. It is a referendum of
the Irish people that will change Articles Two and Three, not any Government,
not me, or anybody else.
HUMPHRYS: I asked the question, though, because,
as you are far more well aware than I am, there are many, many people in the
Republic of Ireland who say we have our country now, we don't actually need the
Six Counties - we don't want the six counties.
REYNOLDS: Well, to them I have to say that, in my
opinion, that the violence and the division in the North of Ireland is holding
back the fuller development of the island of Ireland in many, many ways. First
of all, say, for instance, in Tourism. What do we hear and what do we see
around the screens of the world for the last two weeks? Is that going to
encourage people to come to Ireland on holidays, North or South? Investment -
which both of us need - is that kind of picture out there going to get us
investment that we need? On the island alone, if we were to have peace and
stability on the island, the North of Ireland domestic market will go up by a
hundred per cent. The South of Ireland market - domestic market - would go up
by fifty per cent. We could have a sharing of the overheads as to how to run
the country and save us all money. How much money are we paying, as Irish
taxpayers, to try and sustain the security position that we have? We're
actually paying four times more than the British taxpayer's paying. And, I
know the British taxpayer is a bit fed up with paying somewhere three and a
half to four billion, too, for the type of situation that's there. The full
development and future development and the economic future of this island is
linked, in my opinion, to the problems and the violence that's up there. Take
out that and you will be surprised how it can transform, first of all, the
atmosphere. Time will give the people the opportunity to heal the wounds that
has been inflicted - very deep wounds - to try and assuage the fears and
suspicions of the Unionist community and, indeed, of the Nationalist
community. And, if they can sit down and work out a future, a better future
for themselves and this island, then, as I say, the Irish Government will
respond in whatever way the people want to respond, because at the end of the
day, it's the people's decision not a Government decision.
HUMPHRYS: Would I be wrong in taking that as a
very clear message to Jim Molyneaux and his Ulster Unionists?
REYNOLDS: You most certainly would be right in
taking a message - a clear, unequivocal message, that in the event of all the
Parties and the groups sitting down and working out their own future, as to how
they want to live on this island, then, the Irish Government will ask the Irish
people to pass their judgement on that situation. In other words, in the event
of an agreement being reached, that a referendum can be held, both in North and
South, but separately - separately North and South - to give our people the
opportunity of saying 'yes' or 'no'. The calls that have come, time and time
again, for a unilateral change in Articles Two and Three, in relation to the
talks, before the talks take place, is not feasible. It's not logical. It
would not succeed and what would it do if it was beaten? It would strengthen
the- the position of the provisional IRA, as being the only people who would
then be seen to be carrying the nationalist flag. We are not going to allow
that in this country.
HUMPHRYS: So, it's quite clear what you're saying
to the Unionists, as part of a potential agreement. It's less clear, perhaps,
what you're saying to the IRA.
REYNOLDS: No. I'm saying to them: Twenty-five
years, twenty-five years of violence. Three- Well over three thousand deaths,
nearly forty thousand people injured and we're not any further down the road to
a solution. Violence, as a way forward, has to be rejected. They must see it.
Everyone else sees it. The people on the street are saying it. Children are
saying it. Everybody is saying it, and I hope that that message is getting
through, that the mood is there. There is a better way. And what I'm saying
to them is: Turn away from violence and turn back to Constitutional politics.
Do that and you have a place at the table to argue your viewpoint, as to what
kind of a future the people of Ireland want to have.
HUMPHRYS: So, you've a message for the Unionists,
a message for the IRA. What about a message for the British Government? Do
you now want to see Mr Major leaning, perhaps, a little more heavily on Mr
Molyneaux and the Unionists?
REYNOLDS: What I would like to see Mr Major do
first is to come with me and join with me in exploiting the opportunity for
peace that I believe is there. Let's together find the framework that is
acceptable to try and get a cessation of violence. If he believes that, as I
believe it, then, I think we will have taken the first step to bringing peace
to Ireland in this century.
HUMPHRYS: Can I-
REYNOLDS: I believe it's there and I want to see
him take the courage and the conviction in his hands, because we have a moment
in history to do it and it may not be there for a long, long time again.
HUMPHRYS: One final thought. Can I ask you to
look ahead ten years and tell me what sort of Ireland you see in ten years from
now?
REYNOLDS: I'll see a different Ireland. I'll see
peace in Ireland. I see an Ireland where North and South will work together.
HUMPHRYS: But there will still be a North and a
South?
REYNOLDS: Pardon.
HUMPHRYS: There will still be a North and a South?
REYNOLDS: If it takes ten years. If it takes ten
years to get rid of the suspicions and the fears. And, it'll - if it takes
that period of time for people to say: "This is a better way". If it takes
that long, that's better than the loss of a single life. That has to be
better. What I say is, the people of the North of Ireland on both sides have a
huge contribution to make to the fuller development of this island. I believe
they're at the stage and they're at the crossroads when they're beginning to
see and look out ahead, as I'm looking out ahead, to see there is a better way
than the way they have done it for the last twenty-five years. And both
communities have resilience that you or I get it very difficult, I'm sure, to
understand, that having gone through twenty-five years, that they're still able
- as the Protestant man in the Shankill was able to do - to put his arms around
the mother of the bomber and send her home in a taxi. That's the kind of
people we're talking about up there. That's the type of people. When you see
on the screen or in the papers, you know, a young child holding his baby sister
and the father and mother gone, then, whatever period of time it takes, and
whatever effort it takes, and whatever vision and conviction and leadership
that it takes from John Major and myself, I believe, there's an onus and
responsibility in us to lead in this situation. We have an opportunity. Let's
maximise it - history will never forgive us if we don't.
HUMPHRYS: The Irish Prime Minister, Albert
Reynolds, talking to me yesterday.
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