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ON THE RECORD
ROBIN COOK INTERVIEW
RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION: BBC-1 DATE: 11.12.94
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JOHN HUMPHRYS: So there you are Mr Cook, you've
got to tread warily, you've got a problem, you're more pro European than the
Tories, therefore they will be able to play the patriotic card against you.
ROBIN COOK MP: Well let's be quite clear about this.
Labour believes that Britain's place is in Europe and indeed in a leading place
in Europe, because it's in Britain's interests to be in Europe. That's where
the majority of our trade goes, that's why inward investment comes to Britain,
because we're part of Europe, it is fundamentally important to our future as an
industrial nation, and that's why other industrial nations in Europe that are
outside the European Union are queueing up to get in at the present time. But
that doesn't mean to say that we are uncritical of Europe, that we don't want
to change it, that we don't have major disagreements with some of those in the
Commission. Indeed, the irony of your piece there suggesting that we're too
pro Europe is that only a fortnight ago in the House of Commons, the big debate
in Europe turned in our amendment, demanding major cuts in spending of
the common agricultural policy and elimination of fraud which has marred the
record of the Commission. Actually it was a Tory Government that voted that
amendment down so it hardly makes the case that we are pro European.
HUMPHRYS: Well I think the message of that film
was not that we think you are too pro Europe but that many members of your
party think that you are too pro Europe, and therein lies your problem.
COOK: Can I say that I've had difficult briefs
before, and I've had divisions before behind me which on the whole I've
managed to conceal from you, but on this occasion I do have to say that I have
a comparatively easy ride presenting the clear areas where Labour does have
fundamental agreement, and which in the two months that I've been in the job,
nobody's disagreed with. If I can just run over them. Let me go over Labour's
agenda in Europe.
First of all, Labour's agenda in Europe
is to make sure that Britain opts into the Social Chapter, because the social
dimension of Europe is so important. I agree entirely with one of those you
interviewed saying, we can't just have a Europe of businessmen. We've got
to have a Europe of the people, that means that we've got to have the same
rights for our working people as in Europe. Everybody in the Labour Party's
agreed with that, secondly on the common agricultural policy. I know of
nobody in the Labour Party who is objecting to our demands for fundamental
change in the common agricultural policy, real structural changes.
HUMPHRYS: Nor indeed in any other party, but
still, yes?
COOK: I think you will very quickly find
people in the Tory Party who represent the farming interests, who will have
some anxieties on that score and who'll certainly will be dragging their feet,
and if the Tory Party was serious about changing the common agricultural
policy, it is rather odd that they've allowed spending on it to more than
double in the time that they've been in government.
HUMPHRYS: So you'd veto the budget, just before
we leave that one, very quickly then, you'd veto the budget would you, if you
weren't happy with the way the CAP was going, you'd be prepared to veto the
budget of a Labour Government.
COOK: Well can I just say that your
reference...you're raising the issue of veto here, it does of course bring us
to the heart of the problem of the Conservative strategy, and that is to be
always the odd one out, always the one sitting at the end of the table carping
.....
HUMPHRYS: Yes, but.....
COOK: Let me just come to the point. Never
the one that's actually in there arguing for change. Now the problem over
agriculture is precisely because the British Government keeps raising the
importance of veto, the French Government therefore has a right of veto of
agriculture. I actually do think there's a strong case for saying that we
should not have the veto in agricultural matters, because until we do so we're
not going to get round that objection of the French Government. This is a
case where Britain ought to be taking the lead, not hanging back, not being got
round, taking the lead in the Europe which is increasingly recognising that we
cannot afford the common agricultural policy, we certainly cannot afford it if
we're going enlarge the....
HUMPHRYS: So two areas so far, the Social Chapter,
weakening the veto on the CAP, in order to get reform, what about single
European currency.
COOK: On the issue of the single European
currency we passed a statement at our Party Conference, it was actually passed
unaminously as a matter of fact, none of the people we interviewed voted
against it, and nobody in the Conference Hall voted against that statement,
and that statement does recognise the very considerable advantage that could be
there for a single currency, greater stability, great predictability for
bussinessmen, the removal of the Exchange costs for tourists and others
travelling across Europe, also it would end the speculator playing with the
British pound. So there are advantages, BUT if we are going to go into them,
then it has to be on the right conditions, and here actually the point that
you were quoting there from Peter Hain are points that are actually in
in party's policy.
First of all the Central Bank must be
accountable politically, it must be accountable to make sure that it
pursues policies of sustainable growth and full employment, and secondly also,
the convergence criteria must be convergence of the real economy of output, of
productivity, of growth, and tragically of course, after fifteen years of the
Conservative Government, we are now further away from convergence of the real
economy.
HUMPHRYS: Right, so what you would do in order to
get back in there, to argue Britain's case, is you would end Mr Major's opt
out.
COOK: Well I do believe it is very important
that Britain should play a part in debating the future of the monetary union,
actually I have some sympathy with the point that's made by David Martin on
that, that we ought to be in there arguing over the nature of monetary union
because what's important is that we get it right. We ought to be in there
trying to design the vehicle, not standing by saying 'well, we'll decide later
on whether we're going to join for the ride' because by then the vehicle
will have been designed.
HUMPHRYS: So you would end the opt out?
COOK: I'm not saying that a Labour
Government would necessarily join the single currency..(interruption)..
HUMPHRYS: But if you don't end the opt out, how
are you going to get in there to argue your case because your whole criticism,
one of your main criticisms with the Tory Party's policy, the Government's
policy has been that it stands alone all the time, it stands outside, you want
to get back in there, you can't get back in there unless by definition, unless
you opt in.
COOK: Well actually, frankly, I disagree with
you on that point. I'm bound to say that there are going to be very
substantial discussions within the European members as to whether they can
proceed with a single currency. There are going to be real debates over the
design of the single currency, over the Central Bank, over the conditions, I
want to be in there pitching to make sure we get it right. I don't think we
can stand on the sidelines on this one.
HUMPHRYS: So therefore you have to end the opt out
in order to be admitted to those councils because you cannot, you can't argue
those cases from that..those points from outside.
COOK: Well I think come the time in 1999 which
is the one written in the Treaty, I should be myself surprised if every other
member state of the European Union is going to be ready...(both talking
together)....
HUMPHRYS: You're talking about wanting to change
the conditions that apply..(interruption)..so that you given the right
circumstances, if I understand you correctly, could sign up to a single
European currency.
COOK: We would want to join a single currency
if the conditions are right, if we achieve the correct nature of convergence,
that correct nature of convergence being the real economy, not just monetary
target, and if we did have a designer single currency which made clear that
we're a Central Bank, which is open, which is accountable to democratic
(interruption)..
HUMPHRYS: So there are plenty of 'ifs' there and
those are the 'ifs' that have to be cleared up.
COOK: Hang on, hang on, those are not just
'ifs', those are very important conditions. They're vital to British economy
and of the British people and I may say, other countries as they approach it
will be looking at the conditions that are in the interest of their people and
their economy would have to be equally tough but you've got to be in there
taking part in the argument.
HUMPHRYS: Absolutely, you have to be in there
taking part in the argument and the reason you say that we are not in there at
the moment taking part in the argument is because Mr Major chooses not to be.
He wants us to stand alone and therefore, he exercised the opt out which
pleased many members of his own Party. Now you must hear this morning me
saying, we would end that opt out on behalf of a Labour Government.
COOK: What John Major did was get an opt out
which of course need not apply if the terms of convergence were not themselves
met. He got....they were in the Treaty, there are quite clear, specific terms
of conversion, now we want to go back in the context, perhaps in 1996, and look
at those conditions again. It's a debate which would be perfectly legitimate
to reopen in 1996 when there will be another inter-governmental conference. It
is perfectly true that the EMU debate is one that is not actually prescribed in
the Treaty for revision in 1996 but it would be astonishing if the European
Union in 1996 was to have an inter-governmental conference that was not looking
at these matters afresh.
HUMPHRYS: So a Labour Government comes to power
in the early part of '96, you go along as Foreign Secretary to represent
Britain at the inter-governmental conference and you say 'I know our Prime
Minister wanted to opt out, chose to opt out at Maastrict but I want to be
readmitted now to these councils on behalf of a Labour Government, I want to
be readmitted to those councils, therefore I'm ending the opt out and given
that we can win the argument over change in the convergence criteria in this
way and that way, we will then sign up to a single European currency. We'll
get rid of the Queen's head off the fiver.
COOK: If there is a single currency then it
would be an advantage to the British economy, the British industry and the
British people to join, then yes, a Labour Government would join it but only on
the grounds that the conditions were right for it and that we had achieved
the convergence of real economic performance, which, of course, you are more
likely to do with a Labour Government.
HUMPHRYS: Which is Mr. Major's position
effectively, and he thinks it's so unlikely that those convergence criteria
will come right within a sensible period of time that it isn't actually likely
to happen, so you see, you want it both ways here don't you, you want to win
this argument without actually taking it any further forward.
COOK: John, we want a single currency that
would work and would work in the interests of Britain, you are not going to get
that if you don't take part in discussion, you are not going to get that if you
stand on the sidelines saying our option is just simply staying out of Europe,
not taking part in these negotiations, not getting around the table, not taking
part in the shaping of the single currency, because I'll tell you this, the
danger of that is that at the end of the day, a Conservative Government even
would find itself in a position which it played no part in devising a single
currency but might then find itself impelled one day to join up to an
organisation which itself hadn't helped to shape, now that is what we've
got to avoid. First of all, and the other point I want to make is that all the
way down the line in your examining, you are pre-supposing that we are going to
fail to get these conditions.....(talking together)... that's the only point at
which the question of staying out applies, why don't we go into these
negotiations and see if we can succeed for once....
HUMPHRYS: Because we can't just go into those
negotiations, since you ask the question, you can't go into those negotiations
with the opt out prevailing, that's the whole point of the opt out.
COOK: In the real world in 1996 is going
to be taken up throughout Europe with an inter-governmental conference is going
to happen anyway and that inter-governmental conference provides the
opportunity, provides the vehicle for re-opening these questions.
HUMPHRYS: Well exactly, so if what you're saying
is in the real world the IGC is going to come along and a Labour Government
would say forget about the opt out, we're in there, we're arguing the case,
with the eventual intention of Britain joining a single European currency, then
I fully understand....
COOK: If the conditions are right.
HUMPHRYS: Of course if the conditions are right,
then I fully understand what you are saying.
COOK: Right, well then I think we've reached
agreement on that.
HUMPHRYS: Yes, we've reached agreement that you
would end the opt out in order to get Britain into a single currency on our
terms.
COOK: What we're saying is if a Labour
Government is elected in 1996, given that you have an inter-governmental
conference that would be taking place in 1996 in any event, we would want to go
into those negotiations to seek ways in which we could change the design of the
single currency, to try and get accountability at the central bank and to make
sure that when the issue of convergence came up it was convergence for a real
industrial performance. Now if we got those changes, then a single currency
could be in Britain's interest.
HUMPHRYS: But once you have a single currency,
even given the sorts of conditions you describe there, you lose control of
over your own economic destiny, you for instance are a Keynesian, most of your
colleagues are Keynesians, you can't be a Keynesian if you've got a central
bank and a single European currency, by definition.
COOK: Well there are very serious problems
raised by the issue of a single currency and of course they were absolutely
right that one of the issues that will be raised by that is that of course, you
lose control of the right to devalue your own currency....
HUMPHRYS: And there are all sorts of other things
as well...
COOK: That is the primary economic tool you
lose. Now, that is of course a very serious tool to lose, unless you can
achieve the same kind of economic performance as the countries of the
continent. That is why it is so important that we do have an industrial
strategy that starts to gear us up to match the output, match the productivity,
match the export rates of the continental countries, a kind of industrial
strategy we've not had for the last fifteen years...and during which time we've
fallen further behind, now that's why it is so important that we start getting
that right and that's what should be the test, the condition for whether or not
we join up to a single currency. On the issue of the Keynesian reflation,
we of course have said that what we want to secure is co-ordinated
measures of growth across Europe and here we come back to the issue of the
central bank, it is very important that in the design of a single currency,
the design of the new economic structures you are creating, that the prime
objective is growth, is full employment, is jobs, is not just monetary targets
and those are issues that would need to be very carefully examined, and put
back on the table.
HUMPHRYS: And as far as people like Peter Hain and
Peter Shore in your party are concerned, and many others like them, they are
convinced that if you sign up to a single European currency, a Central Bank and
everything that goes with European Monetary Union, you effectively
institutionalise unemployment in the Union?
COOK: I think what Peter Hain was saying was
that if you signed up on the present conditions, particularly the rather......
HUMPHRYS: I didn't hear any conditions attached to
what they had to say?
COOK: Oh, no, no, with respect I've discussed
this on a number of occasions with Peter Hain. I know his views, and actually I
thought his views were fairly reflected there. If you signed up on the present
conditions, then yes, you would indeed have problems. That is why it is so
important that we make sure that those conditions are changed and that is why
Britain cannot stay out of discussions on them.
HUMPHRYS: Let me just ask a terribly simple
question. Is it more likely...
COOK: I don't believe it's going to be simple
- never for one minute.
HUMPHRYS: Well let me try. Is it more likely that
a Labour Government would take Britain into a single European currency than a
Tory Government would?
COOK: I believe it is more likely that a
Labour Government could secure changes in Europe that are important to the
British economy. I believe that because a Labour Government would be committed
to making Europe a success, I think Europe as a whole, now does not make
concessions to British interests because they know Britain stands on the
sidelines, doesn't want to make a success of the project and indeed has a Prime
Minister who daren't go to Europe with proposals to make Europe a success
because they're divided on party.
HUMPHRYS: So therefore the answer to that question
is yes, it is more likely?
COOK: It is more likely if we get the right
conditions and if you got the right conditions, then of course we shall join,
yes.
HUMPHRYS: Right. So if we look at the sorts of
things we've been talking about this morning. Social Chapter, reform of the
CAP, if that means as it inevitably would mean, a weakening of the veto,
entering into the single European currency.
COOK: On the issue of agriculture.
HUMPHRYS: On the issue of agriculture. Given the
circumstances that you describe, you are a pretty pro European party.
COOK: We want to make a success of Europe
because we want to make a success of Britain's membership of Europe. I may
say all these things that you have listed would be immensely in Britain's
interests. if we could get those major changes in the common agricultural
policy, it would save us considerable expenditure and it would make sure that
we are freeing resources within Europe for spending on other issue such as the
regional budgets out of which we'd do much better. So these are all changes
that are not just Europe's interests, they're changes we want because they're
in Britain's interests.
HUMPHRYS: But they are, as you'd accept, massive
changes, these are fundmantal changes, would you give the British electorate a
chance to decide for themselves on them?
COOK: On the issue of referendum, yes we've
made it qyuite clear that we have an open mind on the question of a
referendum, for instance perhaps on the single currency. And indeed Tony Blair
has in the past week said that he can recognise a very strong case for letting
the people decide. It's got to be a Europe of people, not just a Europe of
politicians, and that's why it's got to be the people who decide. Now whether
in the event it is a decision taken through a General Election or through a
referendum, is something we'd have to consider in the particular context and
given the time when these changes were taking place. But the people must
decide, we're quite clear about that.
HUMPHRYS: Right, so if we had a Tory Government
that was returned to power the next time, or indeed if you get into power the
next time......in your election, you're going to make it absolutely clear that
you are either in favour, under these conditions of a single European currency
or whatever it make be, if you get voted in on that basis, you'll say well OK
we have a clear mandate, but otherwise you're going to be arguing for a
referendum, strongly arguing for a referendum.
COOK: I won't necessarily rule out that
we'd have a referendum in the event of being elected, if this question of a
single currency came up some time after the General Election. We're not
simply saying that the General Election is a way in which you can avoid having
a referendum, it's a question of whether it comes together at the right time or
whether the issue's fairly before the people. May me say, that Labour actually
has got quite a good record on it, I mean Labour did after all give the people
of Britain a referendum on membership of the European Community, a referendum
that was denied by the Conservative Government that took them in without a
referendum.
HUMPHRYS: So why don't you just come out now at
this stage and say: yes we will definitely on these fundamental issues have an
referendum, come what may, we will have a referendum.
COOK: We're a long way away from any decision
being taken.
HUMPHRYS: The principle's there?
COOK: The principle is a very clear and very
important principle, and as I said, we have said that we recognise a very
strong case for the people deciding. We have got a very favourable inclination
towards letting the people decide, one way of doing it may be a referendum.
We've already had, as a result of Labour governments, two referendums
in Britain, we're committed to a referendum on electoral reform. It would be
entirely consistent with our position if eventually we were to decide on a
referendum on a single currency.
HUMPHRYS: I'm not sure that your members who are
anti-Europe or at least deeply sceptical will be persuaded by what you've said
this morning, that you're less than an Euro-enthusiast. Forty voted against
the European Finance Bill remember, you were more deeply divided over this than
the Tories, sixty six against the third reading of Maastricht. You do have a
problem....you've been enjoying the Tories' discomforture, the reality is
that you have just as big a problem as they do, isn't it?
COOK: If you look at the Labour Party today,
it is an united Party with a leader who's just been elected...(interruption) a
leader who's just been elected with a massive majority in all sections of its
Party, I'd like to see John Major try that. He has a Shadow Cabinet that's
united against him, you do not have Shadow Cabinet figures coming out in the
way that Portillo and Lilley are coming out against the government's line
Europe and that is why of course, in the programme that preceded, you were
unable to find a single figure in the Shadow Cabinet arguing against Tony
Blair's line.
HUMPHRYS: Robin Cook, thank you very much indeed.
COOK: Thank you.
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