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ON THE RECORD
JACK STRAW INTERVIEW
RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION: BBC-1 DATE: 12.2.95
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JOHN HUMPHRYS: Terry Dignan reporting there and with me
now is Jack Straw, the Shadow Home Secretary and the Chairman of the Commission
on Constitutional Reform. So you have a problem there Mr Straw and the way
out seems to be that you give your regional assembly similar power to that of
the Scottish parliament.
JACK STRAW MP: Well let's start at the beginning shall
we? I don't accept Terry Dignan's analysis either that this is a revolutionary
set of proposals that we've got or the way which he puts the so called West
Lothian question. The demand for changes in the way the British constitution
currently operates comes from real practical concerns about the way in which
the British Government over the last fifteen years particularly have
centralised power in this country, right across the country, and have
concentrated power both in Whitehall and in the hands of Quangos. Right across
the country in the United Kingdom, Ireland, Scotland, Wales and in England
there is deep anger about this, about the sense that people feel that control
over their lives, what happens in the Health service, Education service,
Further Education, all sorts of things is slipping away from them, that it's
moved into private government. So that's a sort of universal view across the
nation. Where there's differences is in terms of, if you like, the solutions
and in Scotland and in Wales, or I think in Greater London there is I think a
pretty substantial measure of agreement about what needs to be done. So far as
the rest of the country is concerned that's something we'll look at no doubt
we're going to ...
JOHN HUMPHRYS: Yes well let's ...
STRAW: But let me just make this point to get
this out of the way. What we're concerned about is evolutionary change.
There's no...the proposal for a Scottish parliament, it's something that's
being discussed over a period of thirty years and refined. It was put to the
Scottish people in a referendum and approved by them by the way, by a majority
in late 1978 early 1979, it didn't meet an artificials for (phon) but it was
approved by them, it's taken a long long time. Now on this, look do you want
to deal with the West Lothian question, because that was a very artificial
statement about that.
HUMPHRYS: You tell me that the West Lothian
question isn't as it was analysed there by Terry Dignan. Gordon Brown seems to
think it is and he seems to think that the solution and many other of your
colleagues as we saw some of them on that film seem to think that the solution
lies in English regions. Now let's have a look at what you're going to do with
the English regions. What powers will those assemblies in the English regions
have.
STRAW: What we're doing, we're involved at the
moment in a consultation process. We spoke to the parliamentary party. Last
Wednesday I was speaking to regional groups inside the parliamentary party and
across the country, and I'm not going to tell you what's going to be in our
consultative document John which is coming out in June, or in the manifesto
which will come out at the General Election. But what we are trying to do is
to answer a practical problem which, for example, Howard Davis (phon), the
Director General of the Federation of British Industry, himself addressed in a
speech which he gave last Tuesday. Now what did he say? He said "look the
Government itself has already created an enormous tier of regional government
in this country" but, use my phrase, not his, that's one of the great secrets
of English politics. You'll never hear about this ...
HUMPHRYS: Well we heard about it in that film.
STRAW: Well very very briefly, very briefly
indeed but it's a huge tier it employs thousands of people at the moment and
it's grown. The Government itself at the last election said if you vote for
us, we'll set up what they call integrated regional offices to coordinate the
work of four departments. So you've got this very substantial tier of regional
government through the regional offices, and also for example in the South
West, through thirty five separate regional offices. So that's there, you've
then got quangos running at a regional level, running things like the Health
Service, Training Enterprise, things like that, coordinating that. And then
you've got a sort of invention of a regional tier by local authorities and by
businesses on a very ad hoc basis because there are functions of government
which have to be maintained and run best at a regional level. Now let me just
make this, we've got time, I think it's very important, that this is spelled
out. So we see we're not parachuting into England with this invention of
assemblies which have no argument for them.
HUMPHRYS: Well assemblies is your word, your
party's word not mine, I didn't make up that word.
STRAW: No I understand that. What I'm trying
to say is where does this proposal come from? And it doesn't originally derive
as an answer to the West Lothian question as if we're foisting on people in
England something they would otherwise not want.
HUMPHRYS: Yes but Gordon Brown does seem to think
that that is the answer to the West Lothian question. He made that perfectly
clear. We saw him again on that film.
STRAW: Yes if people watched what Gordon was
saying, what he spoke about there was the offer of English regional government.
HUMPHRYS: Let's remind people that Scottish
parliament goes hand in hand with greater regional ... that's what he said.
STRAW: No, it was the offer, well the word is
very important.
HUMPHRYS: Verbatim quote but anyway.
STRAW: The word is very very important and it
wasn't put there by accident because we want to achieve ...
HUMPHRYS: Yes but I want to put this word offer
you're using, what does it mean. You're saying to people in the regions, you
can have one of these assemblies if you want, but if you don't, you don't have
to.
STRAW: It's a much more serious set of
proposals than that and Tony Blair illustrated that in the interview...
HUMPHRYS: Well let's try and look at what they are
then because I think there is genuine confusion on the part ...
STRAW: What I'm, of course let us look at what
they are. What I'm trying to do is to explain to you John how we would get
there. Let us look first of all at the problem that we're addressing and then
say what's the solution in England, OK?. Now the problem in England, it's an
English problem. The problem in England is there's been massive over
centralisation, power moving away.
HUMPHRYS: You explained that, I take that point.
STRAW: And concentration of power in the hands
of quangos, unelected bodies, unaccountable.
HUMPHRYS: Indeed.
STRAW: And also then local authorities and
businesses trying to create their own regional structures to try and compensate
for this over centralisation. Now that has led to very great concern in the
regions, that these arrangements are not working properly. And Howard Davis
during ...
HUMPHRYS: As you say he drew attention ...
STRAW: And what he said, there's centralisation
has gone too far, there a real concern amongst businesses that there ought to
be a shift back towards the regions. He also described the people running
these integrated regional offices as prefects, his words...
HUMPHRYS: Yes, OK
STRAW: Well no it's not OK because none of that
HUMPHRIES: Yes but you've explained this and I'm
trying to move on from that you see.
STRAW: None of that was brought out in the
film.
HUMPHRYS: Well the purpose of the film was to
establish the problems that you face with the West Lothian question. You say
that problem doesn't exist. There are others in your party including Gordon
Brown who says it does.
STRAW: I'm very happy to deal with that but
just let me finish off the point about Howard Davis. What Howard said is the
current arrangements really are very unsatisfactory. It's the government, the
Conservatives who, in a sense, who've already started the hare of regional
government out of the trap. He described it as a slippery slope for the
government because they have accepted that there is a real problem at a
regional level, that current arrangements are not working satisfactorily so
they've set up these integrated regional offices but they're not working
satisfactorily either. What Howard talked about was establishing a proper and
coherent focus for the regions to speak out for their different areas.
HUMPHRYS: Your policy isn't dictated by Howard
Davis, however important and significant a fellow he may be. He's terribly
important, but he he doesn't tell you what to do. And what I'm asking you
about is your policy with the greatest of respect.
STRAW: Sure.
HUMPHRYS: You've told me a great deal about Howard
Davis, I'd like to know what you think. Let me just ask you a question. Let
us look at these regional councils and try to have some idea of the sorts of
bodies they may or may not be. Will they have any powers to raise or lower
taxes? That's a very simple direct question now.
STRAW: They will not have ...
HUMPHRYS: Right. Will they have any legislative
powers over education?
STRAW: They would not have legislative powers.
What I'm doing here John is explaining to you the process by which they would
be achieved. I've established I think, despite your resistance...
HUMPHRYS: No resistance at all.
STRAW: I've established the problem we're
dealing with is that there is already an extensive tier of English regional
government which is undemocratic, unaccountable and secretive. That's accepted
I think so there's then the issue, what do you do about that? Well we see this
as a two stage process.
HUMPHRYS: So you democratise them.
STRAW: So the first stage is to democratise
them. If you take regional health authorities. Government at the moment is
putting through a bill to abolish regional health authorities altogether, but
there'll still be a regional health function under a regional health prefect or
gauleiter. Well you've got, in our judgement, to have some proper
accountability and democracy in the running of the regional health function and
we're consulting about how that should be done, whether you have it by an
indirectly elected health authority, which would almost certainly be separate
from another regional body to begin or what other process. We've also proposed
that there should be a regional development agency in each region. That was
put forward by Robin Cook in a policy paper he put forward about a year ago.
It's achieved very substantial support including from the Trades Union Congress
and from the CBI. There's then a question how do you appoint people to that
regional development agency.
HUMPHRYS: Appoint I thought you elect people. I
thought that's what this was all about
STRAW: Just a minute. How do you appoint
people to that regional development agency? There's then the issue of the
oversight of the integrated regional offices and then there's this question of
a say in Europe. One of the reasons why Howard Davis was so concerned about
the current arrangements is because the regions at the moment without any
question are losing out in Europe, no question about that, under the
government's arrangements. Regions are...individual towns, are losing cash so
there's a case for the regions to be far better coordinated in terms of the say
they have in Europe. What we say from that is that in the first stage, and
what we're looking at and consulting about internally and then there'll be this
policy document which we'll publish in June, is that there should be a new
regional focus, much more coherent regional focus which would deal with
economic planning, industrial planning, economic development, transport, land
use planning, and also coordinate the work of the integrated regional offices.
HUMPHRYS: Regional focus, but what there will not
be is an elected authority, assembly, parliament, call it what you will for
each region. There will not be that.
STRAW: There is a two-stage process we are
looking at here. First of all, it has never been, never ever in a million
years, been part of Labour's plans for there to be regional parliaments with
tax raising powers.
HUMPHRYS: Well look I've got your document here -
Renewing Democracy,
STRAW: I've read it.
HUMPHRYS: Of course you've read it. You probably
wrote it! Renewing Democracy, Rebuilding Communities. And it says here quite
clearly on page four: "Labour believes we should provide for an elected
authority for each English region. Now that's...that was published a few days
ago.
STRAW: Yes we do. But what we are looking at
in much more detail is the process by which you achieve that with a degree of
concensus.
HUMPHRYS: But that is your intention? There is
absolutely no question that when we have your manifesto that's going to be in
it?
STRAW: I can't speak for what's going to be in
the manifesto, let me make that clear, okay? What we're doing at the moment is
consulting very carefully about how these changes are agreed and ...
HUMPHRYS: You've been talking about this for six
years, you know. You've had a long time to think about it.
STRAW: This is set against a back... yes, but
there's one, for example, very major change that's occurred which without any
question extends the timescale here. When we developed our plans between '92
and '93 there was the clearest expectation that there would be a unitary system
of government at local level right across the country. The shire counties
would be abolished, without any question. That was our expectation, it was
also the government's intention and they gave an instruction to that effect to
the Banham Commission on local government.
Now, owing to most extraordinary
incompetence and inconsistency of approach by this commission we have now got a
situation where of thirty nine shire counties only eight are going to have -
even if the recommendation is accepted - no this is very important - only eight
are going to have ...
HUMPHRYS: Yes but you are telling me what happens.
I'm trying to get you to talk about what will happen under a Labour government.
You seem very reluctant to do that.
STRAW: I'm explaining to you the problems that
we now face which have intervened. There was an expectation that as a result
of a Conservative change there would be unitary system of government right
across the country - in all thirty nine shire counties as well as the six
metropolitan areas and in London. Now, that's not going to be the case now and
the one thing we've all been clear about in England is that you could not
conceivably establish elected regional assemblies as well as having a tier of
shire counties and districts underneath that.
HUMPHRYS: Right so you are backing away then.
Let's try and get this quite clear. You will move...the Labour Party is moving
away from this idea of elected assemblies for the English regions which would
have real powers. That is not at the moment on the agenda as far as you are
concerned.
STRAW: It's certainly on the agenda and we will
put forward detailed ideas about it when the consultative document is published
but...
HUMPHRYS: It is on the agenda.
STRAW: Just a second. But what is clear is
that the timescale in which that could take place is longer than had previously
been anticipated.
HUMPHRYS: OK so it's not going to happen ...
STRAW: And not least because of the
inconsistency of approach of the Banham Commission, the fact that of thirty
nine shire counties only eight are going to have anything like unitary
districts within them.
HUMPHRYS: Well let me suggest a problem to you
then in that case, if you say that's not on the immediate agenda because that's
all going to take time and it's going to be - for reasons you've explained very
fully - extremely difficult to do. This is where the West Lothian question
rears its ugly head for you. Clearly the sorts of regional assemblies for
England that you are talking about, or not talking about, are not going to
answer the West Lothian question - a question which does exist and which many
people in your party regard as terribly serious. So you do have this problem,
don't you? You've got to deal with it somehow.
STRAW: Let me deal with it, with the West
Lothian question. First of all, there has never been symmetry in the
arrangements between England and Scotland. The assumption behind those who
simplistically say here's the West Lothian question...Let me finish - otherwise
I shall have to write to Mr Birt.
HUMPHRYS: (Laughing) A low blow, if I may say so.
STRAW: A very low blow, but I was only three
words into the answer before you...
HUMPHRYS: I was trying to get you to clarify.
STRAW: Well I am clarifying the situation. The
assumption behind those who parrot the West Lothian question is that there has
always been complete symmetry in the arrangements between England and Scotland.
This isn't the case. Scotland has its own legal system and effectively that is
being controlled by Scotland and by Scots - not by England. It's got its own
educational system and even through the Eighties the Scots were following a
quite different educational agenda. For example, on credability of testing.
HUMPHRYS: All that was agreed by a British
Parliament.
(Unintelligible because both talking together)
STRAW: Of course and under devolution we are
talking not about a transfer of sovereignties - this is the crucial answer to
the West Lothian question - but a transfer of power and to quote Gordon Brown
again from the speech - but part of it which you didn't mention: "Power
devolved is power retained." This is not establishing a federal system, not
for a moment. We are establishing a process by which a good deal of power
which currently in practice is not actually retained by the Westminster
Parliament but is exercised unaccountably by the Scottish Secretary of State
and Scottish quangos is transferred to a Scottish Parliament. But the
Westminster Parliament would remain and continue to be sovereign. All the
powers of the Scottish Parliament would derive from that.
HUMPHRYS: But let's put this in terribly simple
terms. An English voter, an English voter, or indeed a Welsh voter for the
purpose of this, is not going to like the idea that a Scottish MP can vote on
his affairs. But what's going to happen is that an English MP - Scottish MPs
can put up their own tax, lower the tax, threepence either way, that's your
plan - English MPs can't vote on theirs but Scottish MPs can vote on his. You
see there is a colossal problem here and people will say very simply "It's not
fair!"
STRAW: I think people will understand the
fairness of it. What they understand at the moment is how incredibly unfair,
if you like, the West Lewisham question is ... rather, the West Lothian
question, because the reverse has happened. Let's take the Scottish poll tax.
There is an issue domestic to Scotland which English Tory MPs forced on
Scotland before the '87 General Election against huge popular hostility in
Scotland. It's all very well Michael Heseltine later coming out and opposing
the poll tax in England. He was silent on the poll tax in Scotland, they
didn't bother about...the English Tory MPs weren't bothered about the Scots.
It's almost as if the Scots are some sort of colony: We won't worry about what
happens up there. This is where this issue of symmetry - or its lack of it -
arises. Time and again what is fuelling the concern in Scotland for a degree
of devolution, of control over people's lives is that people in Scotland - of
all parties - have seen, in a sense, foreign propositions forced on them by
English Conservative Members of Parliament.
HUMPHRYS: Look, for there to be fundamental reform
of the constitution - and this is a fundamental change, you wouldn't deny that
for a moment - there has to be a consensus. Some sort of national consensus.
Now, Mr Major has made it perfectly clear - the Conservative Party has made it
perfectly clear - that if you push these changes through, and let us assume you
have one parliament and then you are thrown out and Mr Major again, possibly,
takes over...
STRAW: I doubt that's the case...
HUMPHRYS: Well you may doubt it but other people
may think it's a reasonable proposition, he is going to make changes of his own
then. He is going to reduce the number of MPs in Scotland to balance this up
because there has to be an element of symmetry. That's what happened in Ulster
- something to which you refer in your own documents. Now, that's a danger for
you. That's a serious problem but it is one way out.
STRAW: Well I find Mr Major's position now very
curious. Mr Major stood in 1974...
HUMPHRYS: But it doesn't matter how you find it,
that's what he's going to do, he said so and that's why the problem is a real
one.
STRAW: You can't just change the composition of
the Commons by edict in the way in which you are suggesting.
HUMPHRYS: One of your own MPs thinks that entirely
acceptable and understandable - McKinley, Mr McKinley.
STRAW: Of course these changes have to be based
upon very substantial consent. There's no question about that. And it's very,
very interesting that in 1974 when the Conservatives, John Major, Ian Laing,
all the rest of them, were putting forward their own proposals for a Scottish
assembly with virtually the same degree of powers except over tax - and after
all Parish Councils can raise taxes in the same way as other bodies can, so
it's scarcely a major constitutional shift - there was no suggestion that the
number of Members of Parliament should be reduced. Neither - let's be clear
about this - in all the proposals for devolution to an Irish assembly in the
North of Ireland are there any proposals for the current number of seventeen
Members of Parliament to be cut by Mr Major. So the inconsistency is not
ours...
HUMPHRYS: But Mr Major is making it absolutely
clear that that is what he will do if you push through these changes in the way
that you propose, so you've got to take account of that because you've accepted
there has to be a national consensus. There isn't a national consensus.
STRAW: Of course there has to be a national
consensus and the reason why I am engaged at the moment in a very careful
process of consultation within the Labour Party and with many others, including
Federation of British Industry, is to ensure that the changes that we bring in
in terms of the constitution do have a proper foundation within the nation.
And that's why, for example, over the process to achieve English regional
assemblies we will take our time. We are not going to foist these on areas
that do not want them. We do believe unquestionably that across the country
there is now a demand - without any question - for a democratisation and
improvement in the accountability of the existing system of English regional
government which is extensive but unaccountable.
HUMPHRYS: A very weak version of English regional
government which isn't going to deal with the problem. That's the difficulty.
STRAW: There is never going to be - even once
we have achieved a situation of English regional assemblies - never going to
bee complete symmetry between those assemblies and a Scottish parliament.
HUMPHRYS: Not complete symmetry but a lot more
than your suggestion in this programme today. There has been a considerable
running back, hasn't there.
STRAW: There was never going to be that. The
Scottish parliament would have legislative control over various domestic issues
- education, health, local government and so on, within Scotland. It would
have a power not just to raise tax, by the way, but also to lower tax within
the Scottish domestic area. Now that's never been on the agenda for the
English regions nor, let me say, has it been on the agenda for Welsh assembly
either. It would have a high degree of devolution but not a tax raising power.
HUMPHRYS: Right, so the regions aren't going to be
the answer to the West Lothian question. What you do in the regions is not
going to be the answer to the West Lothian question. What's going to happen to
you then in the next parliament - if it's a Tory parliament - is the number of
Scottish MPs will be cut.
STRAW: The constitutional answer to the West
Lothian question is that we are not here transferring sovereignty we are
transferring power and as Gordon Brown, just to repeat the point, said: "Power
transferred or devolved is power retained." Those powers could in theory be
taken back and if the Conservatives got a majority in Scotland they would be
able to do that. What we are doing here is saying right across the United
Kingdom there is really serious anger about the current way in which the
government of Britain operates and we are seeking to secure changes which are
sensible in each of the countries and regions of the country.
HUMPHRYS: Jack Straw, thank you very much.
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