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ON THE RECORD
RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION: BBC-1 DATE: 11.12.94
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JOHN HUMPHRYS: Good afternoon. It was a terrible week
for the Tories and there's more to come. A landslide defeat predicted at the
Dudley West by-election and the rebels as defiant as ever. What IS the
leadership to do? I'll be talking to the Tory Party Chairman after the news
read by Jennie Bond.
NEWS
HUMPHRYS: But first - the troubled Tories. At the
time it must have seemed pretty straightforward: if you have a bunch of rebels
you threaten them with expulsion from the party and that'll bring 'em into
line. If they persist, you chuck 'em out and then wait for them to come
crawling back - as they surely will. Well, it's no longer looking that simple.
On the contrary, the nine who no longer answer to the Tory Whip are looking
more and more like a party within a party and they show no sign at all of
remorse, let alone a desperate desire to be re-admitted. So, the Government's
in a minority and the Opposition are saying the Commons committees which must
scrutinise new Bills should no longer be dominated by them. And that raises
the prospect of a Government effectively paralysed when it tries to get new
legislation through.
With me is the Chairman of the Tory Party
Jeremy Hanley. Mr. Hanley good morning.
JEREMY HANLEY MP: Good morning.
HUMPHRYS: You've got to do something about these
people haven't you, either with threats or with promises, you've got to get
them back into line?
HANLEY: Well it would be nice for them to retake
the Whip, but that's a matter for them. They have to show a clear and
consistent support for the government's programme, and of course within the
voting lobbies in the House of Commons, and then the Chief Whip will decide
when they can come back in, if they should of course want to.
Now at the moment you concentrate of
course on those nine, what you don't mention are the three hundred and twenty
one Conservative Members of Parliament who did support the government. And in
the confidence motion, the fact that we got a majority of twenty seven shows
that whilst you regard it as a minority, there is still very much a majority in
the House of Commons, for the government to continue with its programme of
legislation. Indeed, Sir Richard Body said over night, as you may have seen,
that he will consistently vote for the Conservative Party, except of course on
this issue. Now it is for them, therefore, to decide when they want to come
back, and we would welcome them of course.
HUMPHRYS: I also heard Sir Teddy Taylor say this
morning" we have our agenda quite clearly, and we're not cyphers for the Tory
Party".
HANLEY: Well you say 'we', of which you speak,
you give the impression that they are a party within a party.
HUMPHRYS: Well they give that impression don't
they?
HANLEY: Well if you look in the papers today
you'll see that they are not a party within a party, they are individuals, they
are Conservatives, they were elected as Conservatives, they will vote according
to their particular wishes, which I hope will be in accordance with our own
policies, because thet are after all, representing Conservative voters and the
Conservative Government has a full programme, and I would expect them, and hope
indeed that they will support our policies consistently in the future.
HUMPHRYS: But you're not sitting here telling me
this morning that it doesn't much matter whether they come back under the whip
or not, are you?
HANLEY: Well what I'm saying is that's a matter
for them, naturally we would like them to, as the Prime Minister said yesterday
the door is open, we will discuss, we need to discuss matters before the IGC in
1996, we want to take on board all of the views in the party when the Prime
Minister goes to negotiate on our behalf, and indeed it is only right that we
should, because every party of course has a coalition of views. We want to hear
people, but people who have deliberately kept themselves outside the party, who
have lost the Whip because that was exactly what they knew would happen if they
took that particular course of action, they're not now part of the debate.
HUMPHRYS: But you know how to bring them back into
the debate, as you put it, bring them back under the Whip and that's to say you
can have the referendum that you want, and I'm slightly puzzled here by what
Mr. Major has been saying, because yesterday he seemed to offer that bribe, if
bribe it is, and I dare say you'll say it isn't, but today he's on the attack
he's calling them self-indulgent, they've got to back us persistently and
consistently, what's his position here?
HANLEY: Well, I think you're confusing two very
different issues, as far as a referendunm's concerned the Prime Minister's made
it absolutely clear that that is a matter for debate, that is a matter that has
yet to be decided. After all if you take the two issues that he's said could
be possibly put to a referendum and only possibly, one of them is the result of
the inter-governmental conference, and that depends what the results of that
conference happens to be. There may be some very important issues, there may
be some comparatively minor issues, whether that result is put to a referendum
also determines...or is determined by the question that is put, and as far as a
single currency is concerned, the Prime Minister's made it very clear that that
is a matter that is in the long grass and therefore doesn't have to considered
at this very moment, but is a matter which he says might be considered later
on, that's just the debate which is there at the moment, and as you mentioned,
as far as Michael Portillo this morning, that is part of the debate, that's a
good debate, a healthy debate.
HUMPHRYS: But very different language between Mr.
Portillo and Mr. Major. I mean Mr. Portillo was saying, 'let's be kind to these
folks, peace, reasonableness, let's be generous and patient and tolerant'.
But Mr. Major's talking about self-indulgent people. There's a very different
tone there isn't there?
HANLEY: No, there's not a different tone, in
fact. If you actually...you're misinterpreting I think what Michael Portillo
was saying. What Michael Portillo stands for of course is the fact that he
recognises that when people on a matter of confidence in government, when they
vote against he recognises enitrely, and there was no dispute at all in
Cabinet on the matter, that they should lose the Party Whip if they decided not
to support the government on that issue. Now there's no disagreement there.
There's also no disagreement that we would willingly take these people back if
they show a consistent support for the government, there's no difference there
at all.
HUMPHRYS: But there is a lot of difference isn't
there over the circumstances in which you do take them back, I mean, you are
assuming that they positively want to come back. They're not giving any
indication that they want to come back at all, they're perfectly happy to carry
on as they are doing.
HANLEY: Well that's for them but they must
reapply for the Whip, in other words it's up to them to reapply in the first
instance and secondly, then if they want to reapply for the Whip and if the
Chief Whip believes that they've shown that consistent support then they could
be admitted but the time scale is a time scale that can be completely unknown.
Who is to say exactly what the time scale is?
HUMPHRYS: Yes but there is a clear difference
isn't there, within the Party over how they should be treated. We learn this
morning that Sir Marcus Fox berated the Chief Whip, they had a stand up row, he
and the Chief Whip over whether the Whip should have been withdrawn in the
first place and whether they shouldn't now be invited to come back. 'Let's
bring them back into the fold' is what he was saying.
HANLEY: But that as far as I'm aware is just a
bit of journalistic talk, people like to hype up differences between people and
every discussion...
HUMPHRYS: You're not suggesting to me that there
aren't differences over this issue are you?
HANLEY: Well I'm certainly not aware of a
difference between Sir Marcus Fox and the Chief Whip, after all Sir Marcus was
the strongest in calling for loyalty before the particular vote in question,
so I think it's most unlikely that the press reports are totally accurate on
that issue. No, Sir Marcus knows full well that unity is vital. I spend a lot
of my time travelling around the country. Last night I was speaking in the
Midlands and there the view of the association was absolutely clear that what
they want is unity within the parliamentary Party and indeed without unity, the
Party is diminished. It is not as strong unless you have unity and I believe
that the Prime Minister, not only deserves unity but indeed, the Party needs
that unity and I think that we will get that unity with the programme of
legislation that we have ahead.
HUMPHRYS: But you talk about the constituencies,
your problem really is that you can't threaten these characters, you can't
bring them back in under any kind of threat because their constituencies
support them. And that's what changed in the Tory picture over the last
several months, maybe years.
HANLEY: Well if you have a person who is a
Member of Parliament and if they espouse a particular view and if they
espouse that view against the views of the Party, remembering of course that
there are many people who would have helped them to become Members of
Parliament, who would have stand at the streets and raised subscriptions and
collected money and done all the local events which are necessary for the
support of a local party. There are many people there who might disagree
fundamentally with an individual Member of Parliament's view, particularly if
they are being disloyal to the Prime Minister or to the parliamentary party or
indeed give a picture of disunity. And therefore you're judging, let us say, a
small group of people around a Member of Parliament, people who have chosen to
support that Member of Parliament as being typical of the views of all
Conservatives in that area. Now most of these people are finding that there
are a very great strand of opinion, there are many strands of opinion within
each of their areas, so you can't actually judge a constituency exactly..
necessarily by all of the views that are held.
HUMPHRYS: But I know you are missing something. I
haven't heard their constituencies sayin: "they were wronged, support the
Prime Minister, be loyal to the Conservative Party" - I must have missed that.
HANLEY: Well I think you have missed it in
one or two instances...
HUMPHRYS: One case in Ruislip, the officer said
yes, you've got to be loyal but then there is already a little Friends of the
MP Association building up and in every other constituency, not a peep out
of the Chairman.
HANLEY: But that isn't really of the main issue,
the main issue....
HUMPHRYS: ...think of the men and women who are
meant to support the Prime Minister, these are the ultra-loyalists. The Tory
Party Chairmen in the constituencies....
HANLEY: But you will know from reading for
instance even the Sunday Times this week, the Sunday Telegraph last week, that
the polls show overwhelming support...I mean the vast majority of support for
the Prime Minister and the government and for unity in the Party and look, I'm
not trying to get these people de-selected in the slightest, absolutley
not. I want them to come back into the Party fold, they were elected as
Conservatives and they should remain Conservatives. The fact that they have
taken a positive action not to support the government on a matter of confidence
is an extremely serious matter and the Whip being withdrawn is an automatic
consequence of that but we want them back.
We don't want precipitive action taken
necessarily but that is up to the associations, that's not up to Conservative
Central Office or the Parliamentary Party. If local people want to reselect
then that is up to them.
HUMPHRYS: You say you don't want precipitive
action taken necessarily against the constituencies, that implies that maybe
you do want it, maybe it has to happen?
HANLEY: No not at all, you can't say that. No,
what I have said...
HUMPHRYS: So you leave them alone?
HANLEY: No, what I have said is that it's upto
their own local associations to decide what to do. Now that is for them, we've
decided of course, within Conservative Central Office to do absolutely nothing
with regard to these individuals, the support for the constituencies is there,
their associations are still being supported of course they are, and naturally,
if these individuals come back and assume the Party Whip again then they will
be supported at the next general election.
HUMPHRYS: And if they don't come back?
HANLEY: Well if they don't come back they are
not a member of the parliamentary party, if they have had the Whip removed at a
time of a general election, then they cannot be selected as an official
Conservative Party candidate, and another official candidate would have to be
chosen.
HUMPHRYS: And if their constituencies say, well,
no we don't want to choose another candidate, we like the guy we've got.
HANLEY: Well then they are not a member of the
National Union of the Conservative Associations, that is, I am afraid, one of
the rules of the National Union and that is something of which they are well
aware. But that's not a threat to the Member of Parliament at all, it is a
fact that if a person happens to have the Conservative Party Whip when they are
a Member of Parliament, then they will be endorsed as a Conservative Party
candidate come the election. If they don't, then, of course, they are most
unlikely to be selected, indeed, the rules say that they should not be.
HUMPHRYS: So come the next election, if they hold
out and they are giving every sign at the moment that they intend to hold out,
if they hold out, their constituencies are told you may not re-appoint him as
your candidate, reselect him or her as your candidate, therefore you have got
to find someone else, they say we are sticking with who we've got, you have got
a split in your party haven't you?
HANLEY: Well we're talking about remember, eight
or nine individuals as opposed to the three hundred and twenty one who have
loyally supported the government in this motion. Now, what happens when we
come to a general election is a different matter. All I am setting out is what
the National Union rules are, the fact is that if a person, let us say an
association of people want to put up for an election - an individual who
doesn't have the Party Whip in parliament, then they are perfectly free to do
so, but they can't stand as an official Conservative Party candidate and there
will then be an official Conservative Party candidate. All the surveys show
that at least ninety to ninety-five per cent of people vote for the party and
not the individual, that goes for me too. Even in my constituency I'm very
well aware that people support the party first and there may be some who'd
vote for me as an individual, but those figures are very small. Party loyalty
is very deep within the associations it's deep within the country as a whole,
and that's why people want unity as all the surveys are showing.
HUMPHRYS: Well that rather depends on how you
define party loyalty doesn't it. The Sunday Times surveyed a hundred
constituency chairmen this morning only seventy per cent of them thought they
were..the rebels were wrong to vote against the Government over the budget
measure, that leaves thirty per cent who thought they were right, where's the
party loyalty that you talk about.
HANLEY: But you said at the very beginning of
this programme John, that there are splits on the subject of Europe. Now
Europe was the reason for that split, and indeed, there is a split in our party
over how we go forward over Europe, but the vast majority of our party support
the Prime Minister, congratulate him on what he achieved in Essen, particularly
I see that Helmut Kohl congratulated him and Jacques Delors has accepted that
John Major's vision of the future of Europe is far more realistic than the
future of Europe, which, indeed, was being espoused by some Europeans earlier
and as far as the Labour Party is concerned, I'm sure that you will bring out
later on in your programme that some forty Labour MPs ....
HUMPHRYS: Yes I'll be talking about that later.
HANLEY: Well you will but I hope you will be
saying forty voted against on the second reading, over twenty voted against on
the third reading, the split in the Labour Party is just as great and actually
talking of splits, the Conservative Party in Parliament has had two defeats
caused by its own backbenchers in this Parliament. In the last Labour
Government the Labour Party were defeated twenty three times by their own
backbenchers, and nineteen times by a combination of other parties, so these
things aren't terribly surprising when you have a small Parliamentary majority.
HUMPHRYS: Not terribly surprising for a Government
to be defeated over a budget measure by its own backbenchers, that is an
extraordinary thing to happen.
HANLEY: It's extremely disappointing, but it is
something that happens and it's exactly what happened with Mr. Denis Healey
when he was Chancellor.
HUMPHRYS: But the fact is that you can't leave the
rebels alone now, can you, you've got to get them back....
HANLEY: It also happened with Geoffrey Howe
when we had a much bigger majority, so these things happen.
HUMPHRYS: But the problem for you is that your
minority is getting smaller and smaller, you've got a by-election in Dudley
West this week and you are going to be absolutely hammered, so there's another
seat you've lost.
HANLEY: Well we shall see. This is what happens
when Governments have a small...we're certainly fighting to win and we've got
the best candidate as the local press all seem to agree.
HUMPHRYS: Are you forecasting a win here this
morning?
HANLEY: What we are talking about here is the
matter that we've got a small majority, this happens to Governments with small
majority, it's very difficult of course to win by-elections when you're mid
term, when all of the difficult issues that you've had to tackle, when the
Prime Minister has had to tackle one of the worst recessions we've ever had,
and when now we have the strongest growing economy in Europe and the fruits of
that recovery will come out over the next...
HUMPHRYS: No Government has ever been this
unpopular even mid term, no Government has been anywhere near this unpopular.
HANLEY: Each time over the last..each time over
the last few General Elections the mid term has been lower than the time before
yes, it has been worse, now this is a continuing challenge...
HUMPHRYS: This is spectacularly worse...
HANLEY: But the economy has now recovered to an
extent when we have the strongest growing economy, and we will have a very
strong economy which will be felt in time by people, because of the low
inflation people don't feel the recovery, there isn't that feel good factor
which I believe will come over the next two years.
HUMPHRYS: But the significance of this split
within your party this time is that the rebels believe they have support on
their side, they believe that when they stand against the Prime Minister,
against the Government as they are doing now, it doesn't do them any harm
because they believe they are right, there are effectively now two parties,
indeed, they even call themselves the confident Conservatives, confident in
their policies rather than your policies and they believe they have support out
there.
HANLEY: Of course they have some support,
individuals will write to them and they then get great strength by that, of
course they do, I mean that happens to all Members of Parliament, they tend to
be a bit selective on the letters that they receive and they tend to quote the
ones that are supportive rather than the ones that in fact attack their
position, but you yourself earlier on said the constituency chairmen are in
support of loyalty, you've admitted that by...
HUMPHRYS: I don't believe I actually said that..
HANLEY: Yes you did because you...
HUMPRHYS: I quoted to you the fact that a third of
them believed that the rebels were right in what they did.
HANLEY: But the survey that you were referring
to clearly said that people...that constituency chairman and indeed, people
throughout the nation want unity in the Party, that is not in dispute, and not
only that the vast majority, as I said earlier on, three hundred and twenty
one, not these nine, three hundred and twenty one support us, and we had that
majority on the conference issue.
HUMPHRYS: But there's not even unity within the
Cabinet, there's a deep split over whether or not there ought to be a
referendum. We heard Mr. Portillo coming out against it this morning, John
Major is saying he thinks it's probably a good idea, Michael Heseltine thinks
it'a a bad idea, there's no unity even in the Cabinet.
HANLEY: Well just a minute, you are making far
too much out of what is after all a debate. This is exactly what the Prime
Minister said, nothing has been decided upon as yet, it is not the right time
..
HUMPHRYS: Michael Portillo has decided, he said so
this morning.
HANLEY: One doesn't even know whether there
would be a referendum because you don't know what the question would be,
you don't know what the circumstances are, when a referendum would come
out...
HUMPHRYS: It's the principle involved as you know
and Michael Portillo is opposed to it in principle.
HANLEY: No I think you'll find that as with
every party there is a wide strand of opinion, the debate continues, the
debate will continue. You talk about a divided Cabinet, I've been in that
Cabinet for the last four or five months and I've seen the reality of that
Cabinet, I've seen that most of the press stories of a divided Cabinet, of
votes in the Cabinets, of people being defeated, of arguments, absolute
rubbish, they are pure nonsensical. It is a most united Cabinet, and I can
tell you that the Prime Minister enjoys the confidence of his Cabinet, and he
deserves the confidence of all of those who are elected Conservative MPs.
HUMPHRYS: It looks increasingly like a lame duck
Government, doesn't it?
HANLEY: No it's not, judge us by each of the
votes, if you look at that confidence vote, with twenty seven majority, our
majority's half of that, I mean, therefore, that was a tremendous result. Now,
as far as I am concerned, you've got to judge us by each vote and I am certain
that those who lost the Party Whip will be supporting the Government throughout
the next year, there may be the occasional issue that people may disagree upon,
that's what Parliament's about, that's what democracy is about, but the
Conservatives who were elected last time will be Conservatives and I hope they
will come back in and accept the Conservative Party Whip.
HUMPHRYS: Jeremy Hanley thank you very much.
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