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ON THE RECORD
RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 19.3.95
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JOHN HUMPHRYS: Good afternoon, the Conservatives have
just launched their local election campaign - but it's been swamped by waves of
rows and Ministerial gaffes. We'll be talking to a senior backbencher who says
the Chancellor and the Chairman must go and to the Cabinet Minister who's meant
to stop this sort of thing happening. That's after the News read by Jon
Sopel.
NEWS
HUMPHRYS: There was a time when the Tories could
rely on their old stagers to provide a bit of ballast when the political waters
got choppy. Not any longer it seems. Last week Lord McAlpine, much loved of
Lady Thatcher, proved about as helpful as a shifting cargo in high seas. Mr.
Major, he said, had stuffed the Party. Today we have one of the most senior
backbenchers - Sir George Gardiner - laying into Kenneth Clarke. I'll be
talking to David Hunt, the Cabinet Minister who's meant to keep the ship
steady, in a moment. But first this from Mark Weston Turner.
********************
HUMPHRYS: Well, David Hunt, can you say the same,
can you tell Sir George we have absolute total confidence in the Chairman of
the Party?
DAVID HUNT MP: Yes, we do, I don't agree with George
but I think the key message that comes this weekend is we have to show the
people of the United Kingdom who's in charge, and follow the Prime Minister's
example in demonstrating that with a thousand people leaving the dole every
working day with steady prices in the shops, that Britain is top of the premier
league, but I'm afraid we've got to get back on top of the premier league for
presentation.
HUMPHRYS: And, the Chairman of the Party, is the
man who runs the premier league in that sense, isn't he? And if you're not
getting on top of it, then it's got to be his fault, hasn't it?
HUNT: No, no, not at all. I think that the
Prime Minister has set a marvellous example in very courageous leadership.
Negotiating the opt out on the single currency, on the social chapter, policy
on Northern Ireland, and what Jeremy Hanley and I have got to do is to get
through to all ministers they've got to follow the Prime Minister's example,
and get out, and show who's in charge.
HUMPHRYS: So you've got to get through to all
ministers, you say, now that's the Prime Minister's job, clearly, it's the
Chairman of the Party's job, clearly, and it's your job, clearly. But, equally
clearly, you're not getting through. Look at the coverage you've had this
week, so therefore, I repeat the question, whose fault is it?
HUNT: Well, I think it's the fault of everyone
who isn't putting across a clear, coherent message.
HUMPHRYS: And who are they?
HUNT: The facts are very clear. The facts are
that we do have a thousand people leaving the dole every working day, that the
figures are looking extremely good, that we have steady prices in the shops,
and that we are winning in export markets right across the world, we're the
fifth largest exporter and importer in the world. Now, what we've got to do is
to get across to people what has occurred during the fifteen, sixteen years
we've been in office, what we now promise over the next two years, must be the
opportunity to get across our achievements, and then the political support will
follow.
HUMPHRYS: Well, let's try and help you to do that
then, because this is constructive programme that we've got here. You've
already said there are three people who ought to be doing that job. Now,
you've also said the job isn't being done, so let's repeat the question and
then perhaps once we've discovered who's at fault, where the blame rests, you
can correct it. Now who do you think's at fault?
HUNT: The job is being done.
HUMPHRYS: But you just said it wasn't, with
respect.
HUNT: No, no, no, let me put it my way. The
job is being done. But we shouldn't have to go abroad to realise what a good
job this government is doing. It's up to every individual minister, and indeed
all members of the Conservative Party, to get onto the doorstep now in the
local election campaign, and start the trail to winning these local elections,
and winning the next general election. So far as the next general election is
concerned, we have more than two years. Let's spend every minute of those two
years leading the nation, continuing to get the good economic statistics we
have, but getting our message across much more effectively.
HUMPHRYS: Right, well you don't want to sack
Jeremy Hanley, you've made that clear. I take it you've made that quite clear?
HUNT: Absolutely.
HUMPHRYS: Okay, you don't want to sack Jeremy
Hanley. What about sacking the Chancellor then, because of the kinds of things
that he has not been doing, perhaps, rather than has been doing, because he's
not been getting across this message, has he?
HUNT: Well, let me put it this way. I said
earlier the job is being done, it is being done. And one of the reasons...
HUMPHRYS: Well, before that you said it wasn't
being done - at least that's how I interpreted it.
HUNT: The real job, in the real world is being
done very effectively...
HUMPHRYS: Ah but the message isn't getting across.
HUNT: ...very effectively and one of
the reasons for that is we have a very effective Chancellor of the Exchequer,
who is delivering something we haven't seen in this country for a very long
time, a sustained period of non-inflationary growth. And what we all need to
do is to get out and talk about that. I mean no-one knows any more what the
Labour and the Liberal Democratic parties really stand for, but everyone knows
what we stand for, and those principles of free enterprise, free trade, free
markets, freedom of the individual, the right to choose, the opportunity of
ownership, let's get out and shout about them.
HUMPHRYS: Well, if they know what you stand for,
and yet you're forty points behind in the polls and facing disaster at the
next local elections, something somewhere is going badly wrong, isn't it?
HUNT: Well, I've already indicated that if we
are top of the premier league for growth in Europe, that's not much use unless
we're top of the premier league for presentation and what...we have of course
been very low in the polls before. We were down lower than we are now, we were
down to eighteen per cent. But what we've always done is to look to the medium
to longer term. Now that's exactly what we have to do, we have to look to the
millennium, to the twenty first century, detail the policies that are going to
win the next general election.
HUMPHRYS: But you can't wait for the millennium to
come before your position improves, can you? And if you're not now at
the top of the premier league for presentation, where do you reckon you are?
Down at the bottom of the fourth...
HUNT: Well unfortunately we are about half way
down the league table but with everyone following the Prime Minister's example
of leadership and courage and vision then we'll get back up to the top of the
premier league by the time of the next election.
HUMPHRYS: All right well again let's be clear
about this then, who isn't following the Prime Minister's lead, clearly if they
are not all doing it there is somebody who isn't, who isn't?
HUNT: Well you only have to ask on the
doorstep John, and I have been around canvassing to recognise that the message
isn't getting through and I offer myself as an example of someone who needs to
get a more effective message across, we all do, we all need to follow the Prime
Minister's lead and I very much hope that everyone will unite behind that lead,
in particular over the coming weeks and months.
HUMPHRYS: So you offer youself, which is noble of
you, what about offering the Party Chairman as well because, I mean, we have
seen this morning a number of people calling for his resignation.
HUNT: I am not one of those, I think we have
got a remarkably effective Party Chairman, who is leading a very good local
Government campaign, but we need to give our leaders stronger support, that's
what I am talking about.
HUMPHRYS: If he is leading a particularly strong
campaign, then why have we been talking about the wrong sorts of things from
your point of view this week, we've been talking about those allegations he
made about Labour local government being corrupt, tending to corruption. Now
I've not heard a single senior cabinet minister support him in that this week,
you might like to be the first on this programme?
HUNT: I very much support Jeremy Hanley.
HUMPHRYS: Well do you agree with him that Labour
local Government tends to be corrupt I mean let's be clear about that.
HUNT: There are examples and you only have to
look for instance, at the south London newspapers this week to see a double
page feature on corruption and malpractice in Lambeth, if you look at
Birmingham and Derbyshire, you look at..don't forget we are fighting local
government elections so therefore it must be about local government and Labour
local government is Labour in practice and you don't have to tell someone who
comes from the city of Liverpool what the history has held, we need to make
sure we have good strong, effective Conservative commonsense local government.
HUMPHRYS: All right, well let's be clear then that
you are joining Mr. Hanley as the first senior member of the cabinet in this
allegation that Labour local government tends to be corrupt now he didn't say
there's the odd little example here and there, he gave us a list of eight
admittedly but some of those were disputed later, including by some of your own
supporters, he said, as a generality, Labour local government tends to be
corrupt, are you joining him in that overall allegation?
HUNT: Yes I made clear that I agree with
Jeremy Hanley and I agree with the Prime Minister when he said that often you
see Labour malpractice in action in local government...
HUMPHRYS: Oh that's a different matter isn't it..
HUNT: And whether it's Political corruption,
whether it's political malpractice, whether it's actual corruption, actual
malpractice, what we have to do in these local government elections is focus on
the record and when you look at the record of Labour local government it
doesn't hold up to the magnifying glass, is doesn't hold up to scrutiny, that's
what these local elections are all about.
HUMPHRYS: You agreed with him that Labour local
government may not be as..that's what the Prime Minister said, not as efficient
and all the rest of it, what the Prime Minister did not say was that Labour
local government tended to be corrupt, he specifically did not say that,
neither did your own deputy chairman, John Maples say that.
HUNT: The word malpractice was used, the word
corruption has been used..
HUMPHRYS: Not by the Prime Minister it wasn't.
HUNT: What we're getting across and I repeat
it again, is that Labour local councils is Labour in action, at local
government level and we're foscussing on their record, putting that record
under scrutiny and demonstrating if people vote Conservative in these local
elections what will then happen, they will get better local services and better
value for money.
HUMPHRYS: But you would accept, wouldn't you, that
there's a huge difference between the words malpractice, inefficiency, whatever
you like and the word corruption because as your own deputy chairman said,
corruption suggests people having their hands in the till and he himself did
not suggest that Labour councillors had their hands in the till and you are not
saying are you?
HUNT: Well you have to ask John, when you look
at the record of certain Labour councils why it is that the police are
involved, why it is that there are these articles being written, demonstrating
malpractice and corruption in local government...
HUMPHRYS: Plenty of articles are being written..
HUNT: John, this must be part of any proper
debate about what local government should be all about and the message that we
are putting across in these local government elections is if people vote
Conservative, they will get better local government as a result.
HUMPHRYS: All the signs are that you are going to
lose a lot of seats in April, thirteen hundred seats according to the BBC's own
estimates, if that happens, if it's anything like that at all, what then
happens to the Chairman of the Party let alone the Prime Minister, but let's
just deal with the Chairman of the Party first.
HUNT: I remember just before the last General
Election being asked a very similar question about other individuals when the
Conservatives were six to eight points behind in the polls, I don't accept that
we are not going to have a winning campaign....
HUMPHRYS: So you're going to win - you're going to
gain seats.
HUNT: ...the polls John, what I worry about is
the poll that matters on local election day and at the next General Election.
HUMPHRYS: And do you think that on local
government election day you are going to gain seats do you?
HUNT: Well I am quite sure that I will be
interviewed immediately after the local elections and I very much hope that I
will be able to speak about a winning campaign and it will be a winning
campaign for the Conservatives if we unite behind the Party Chairman and the
Prime Minister.
HUMPHRYS: It can be a winning campaign if you
don't win seats, if you don't gain seats.
HUNT: I am talking about winning seats, a
winning campaign and we shall win if we unite behind the Party Chairman and the
Prime Minister.
HUMPHRYS: Right but your problem is and Alan Clark
said it again this morning, your party is out of control.
HUNT: It's not at all, look at the reality of
the situation, as I said before you don't...you shouldn't have to go abroad to
realise what excellent results everyone is achieving in the United Kingdom, now
that must have something to do with the Government, it must have something to
do with the fact that we were top of the premier league for growth in the
eighties and now we are again - it must have something to do with the fact that
we've had good government since 1979, what I want everyone to do is to get out
and shout about it.
HUMPHRYS: David Hunt, thank you very much for
shouting here this morning.
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