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ON THE RECORD
MALCOLM RIFKIND INTERVIEW
RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION: BBC-1 DATE: 18.12.94
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JOHN HUMPHRYS: Earlier, I spoke to the Defence
Secretary, Malcolm Rifkind. I began by asking him whether he agreed with the
former Chairman of the Conservative Party, Sir Norman Fowler, who had said the
people think the party is disunited, hopelessly divided and has a death wish.
MALCOLM RIFKIND MP: Well he's got obviously some reason
to put forward that point of view because I believe that we have to remember
that the Conservative Party is not a debating society, it's not simply
indulging in internal discussion for some sort of literary purpose. Politics
is about power, power is about serving the country to the best of our
endeavours and that remark requires unity and we all know prefectly well that
if we give the impression of being disunited we can't be surprised if the
public aren't very impressed.
HUMPHRYS: And you are giving that impression, in
your view?
RIFKIND: Yes.
HUMPHRYS: A death wish?
RIFKIND: No. Not at all, not at all. I think
there is a small number of people who believe, no doubt very passionately in
what they are expressing, but I've no doubt that they have to recognise that a
parliamentary party and a government must speak with a single voice. We have
well over three hundred Conservative Members of Parliament. There has been a
very small number of colleagues who have been going their own way. Well, they
must recognise that if they do that, nobody can stop them at the end of the
day, it's a free country, they have the right to do the kind of damage they're
doing but it will have a price tag that will be very very expensive.
I think the point to remember is that a
Conservative Government on all the issues that every single Conservative Member
of Parliament believes in is infinitely preferable to a Labour Government which
would be pursuing policies on Europe for example, on taxation, on industrial
relations, and a whole spectrum of social policies which we would all find
repugnant.
HUMPHRYS: You say a small number of people,
presumably you're thinking there about the nine rebels. The fact is there's
very little you can do about those nine rebels.
RIFKIND: Well at the end of the day they have to
decide whether they are prepared to support the Government they were elected to
support it is as simple as that.
HUMPHRYS: Well is it quite as simple as that. What
surely seems to be simple is that the Prime Minister - this seems pretty
obvious - is actually going to have to meet their terms and conditions - and
say we'll do this in order to get you back in.
RIFKIND: No, I don't think that is at all
acceptable or realistic. As I mentioned a few moments ago, there are over
three hundred Conservative Members of Parliament, and all but a tiny number are
giving the proper kind of support that is required to the Government and to the
Prime Minister. You cannot, if you are a small group of eight or nine MPs, out
of step with well over three hundred, believe that you can somehow determine
what the policy of the party should be.
HUMPHRYS: The fact is you don't have the luxury of
just leaving them to decide whether they want to come back in and show their
loyalty. Forty per cent, according to our poll of your backbenchers, say they
must come in now, they want them in by January.
RIFKIND: Well the whole point about receiving the
Whip is the Whip is sent to those who support the party and who support the
Government. If they support the party and the Government then there is no
difficulty about them getting the Whip, if they're not prepared to support the
Government then there's little point in sending them the Whip, they are no long
full members of the parliamentary party and it's as simple as that.
HUMPHRYS: Well it isn't as simple as that as far
as many of your MPs are concerned, they believe the leadership is out of touch
on this issue. They want them back in, you can't leave them out indefinitely,
you're a minority Government and they are a real problem.
RIFKIND: With respect, Mr Humphrys, you're
misinterpreting your own poll. The poll indicated the preference of Members of
Parliament as to the timing of the Whip being returned..
HUMPHRYS: Absolutely.
RIFKIND: Well it didn't express any view on the
leadership of the party and whether the party was out of touch and you really
mustn't give..produce false questions and then ask me to answer them.
HUMPHRYS: Well I'm going to come on to the
question of out of touch in a moment. But let's just deal with this, I said
the party..the leadership was out of touch because what the leadership is
saying and you've just said it yourself, is effectively all in good time when
they have shown their loyalty. Now, what the response to that poll said, was
we want them back by January. Now, it's commonsense that you can't..they
haven't got time to show their loyalty by January, so in other words they've
saying we want them back now.
RIFKIND: Now, look, you know as well as I do, the
whole point about receiving the Whip is whether people are supporting the party
who actually issues the Whip. If they're not actually supporting the
Government then they're not full Members of the Parliamentary Party and that is
not some new principle, it's the whole basis on which the party system has
operated for quite a long time. We found that they...had the Whip withdrawn
because on a motion of confidence when the Government's very existence was at
stake they still felt unable to support the Government. You can't have a
Whipping system if you don't take account of that fact.
HUMPHRYS: But so long as they're out there, they
are a threat, a continuing threat to the stability of the Government, they're a
focus of resentment against the Government.
RIFKIND: Well that's all very well saying that if
we can assume that once they have rejoined the party and returned to receiving
the Whip, they will support the Government and support the Prime Minister and
support the party. If they're not prepared to do so, then it's no loss to the
party whether they're inside or outside.
HUMPHRYS: And there's another problem for you as
well isn't it. There's one obvious continuing source of disunity, but there
is another one, the rebels are only in a sense the most visible part of the
problem, there's a much broader one, an endless stream of senior figures,
criticising the Government for having lost its way, for being out of touch with
what Conservatism is really all about. That can't just go on and on can it?
RIFKIND: I think we certainly have a problem, I
acknowledge that fact, it's a very serious difficulty. I think it results
largely from the fact that unlike in the 1980s we have a very small overall
majority and therefore a small number of Members of Parliament are able to have
an influence far greater than was possible in that period of time. I think what
we all have to do - the Government, backbenchers, party activists - is decide
what is our main concern and I believe passionately in the need to see a
continuing Conservative Government, not just for the next two years but for the
remainder of the '90s because we've actually got one heck of a lot of work
still to be done. And I think a combination of the work that we need to do,
plus the dangers that would be posed by a Socialist Government, even under Mr
Blair, a Socialist Government clearly would have a prescription of policies
very fundamentally different to those of the present administration. And if we
believe that as Conservatives then we must work to have a united party,
otherwise we will end with a Labour Government which would be infinitely more
damaging and harmful than any of the divisions that might be seen within our
party at the present time.
HUMPHRYS: And they believe that as well, they want
a return of a Conservative...I'm not talking now necessarily about just the
rebels, I'm talking about all sorts of other people - George Gardner, Townend,
Boyson, Lamont, Mellor - the list goes on and on.
RIFKIND: I know, but do you think these divisions
don't exist within the Labour Party? Do you think that Denis Skinner and Tony
Blair see eye to eye on every issue? and if they don't (interruption)..and if
they don't see eye to eye on every issue, and if there were fifty Labour MPs
for example who a couple of weeks ago voted against their party's ruling on one
of the European Bills, why are we not actually seeing the same debate and
discussion? Is it because there is a recognition and a realisation within the
Labour Party that public disunity as we saw in the 1980s costs them power for
fifteen years and is that not something which we also perhaps should be giving
attention to.
HUMPHRYS: Well indeed you should because...
RIFKIND: I'm glad you agree on that..
HUMPHRYS: Because loyalty has always been, so
we're told, the Tories' secret weapon.
RIFKIND: Absolutely right.
HUMPHRYS: And you've lost it, it's gone.
RIFKIND: It's become a secret and it's about time
we rediscovered it.
HUMPHYRS: And how are you going to rediscover it?
RIFKIND: Well I think it's an obligation upon all
of us. I think there is a need first of all to concentrate on the most
important priority, which is providing a Government which continues to improve
the quality of life of the people of the United Kingdom, that is the first
purpose of Government, the welfare of the nation, that should be our overriding
consideration. Secondly, we should actually concentrate on identifying the
consequences if this Government lost office and was returned by a Labour
adminstration. These are factors which..take Europe for example, we know that a
Labour Government, on Europe would wish us to accept the Social Chapter, would
wish to be not isolated in Europe and therefore commit itself to supporting
whatever initiatives Brussels came forward with. The divisions that exist
between the Labour Party and the Conservative Party are infinitely greater than
the difference of emphasis which is all that can be found, I believe, within
the Conservative Party's ranks.
HUMPHRYS: Well you say that and yet we're now
seeing a growth of fractionalism in the Conservative Party in the way that we
haven't seen before. "Conservative Way Forward", we've just had a film about
it, Cecil Parkinson, Lord Parkinson saying things like "this is not some little
fringe organisation, we represent the view of most activists in the party and
we want to make sure that view is represented fully in parliament"
RIFKIND: These groups have existed for fifty
years.
HUMPHRYS: Not like this.
RIFKIND: Oh, I'm sorry, you're wrong. They
existed during the Thatcher Government, they existed in Harold Macmillan's day,
there have always been groups of the Conservative Party - "The One Nation
Group" was formed in the 1950s to put forward a point of view which was
different to that held by other Conservatives. There's nothing wrong with that
as long as it's done in a constructive and positive way and most of those
involved - in Conservative Way Forward - are loyal members of the party giving
support to the Government and to the Prime Minister, putting forward their own
particular point of view in a sensible and reasonable way. I don't take any
exception to that at all.
HUMPHRYS: So there's nothing wrong with these
people going off and organising their own training weekends and their own
candidates, hiring their own image consultants....
RIFKIND: Hold on, don't exaggerate it out of all
significance. I know you're trying to make a news story out of some interviews
you did a few days ago..
HUMPHRYS: No, no I'm reporting some facts that's
all.
RIFKIND: Well no you're not, you're exaggerating
them out of all significance. The Conservative Party, like all other political
parties, has always had groups within it, putting forward particular policies
and good luck to them. I think it's a very healthy situation. The
Conservative Party does have a broad spectrum of views but you know the crucial
thing is, whether it's Conservative Way Forward or the Conservative Tory
Reform group, the vast majority of MPs and activists who support these
organisations support a Conservative Government and work for a united party
because they know that the alternative would be too ghastly to contemplate.
HUMPHRYS: Let's return to what you castigated me
for raising earlier and that is the suggestion that the leadership of the party
is out of touch. Our polls showed and we asked them a straightforward
question, forty three per cent of the backbenchers we spoke to, that is to say
forty three out of a hundred, said the Government is not in touch with their
views. Now you're in the Government, does that surprise you?
MALCOLM RIFKIND: Did they explain what they meant by
that?
HUMPHRYS: Well we asked them the bold question.
RIFKIND: I know you did, precisely.
HUMPHRYS: If we'd embroidered the question then
you could have said to me, but you've embroidered the question, straight
forward question and that was their response.
RIFKIND: If I was to ask you have you stopped
beating your wife, it's the old question, and you gave a straight yes or no
answer, we could then have a splendid half hour of fun debating what exactly
was meant by that.
HUMPHRYS: Yes because ...
RIFKIND: I'm sorry Mr Humphrys if you want to ask
me about specific policies please do so. I'm not here going to comment on a
series of bogus questions in an opinion poll when your researchers telephoned
MPs and we don't know who they were, we don't know what they were asked, we
don't know what they had in mind when they said it and not one of them has
appeared on your programme.
HUMPHRYS: Well I've just told you what they were
asked.
RIFKIND: I'm sorry, I don't know - you're
inventing a whole series of spurious questions, now can we please discuss
policy, the state of the Government, the state of the party.
HUMPHRYS: Right, let's discuss policy. Let's
discuss whether or not you ought to have a referendum on Europe because that's
something we asked them and seventy two per cent want a commitment, a
commitment on a referendum on a single currency. Do you believe that there
ought to be one?
RIFKIND: Good, now we're getting back to serious
issues and I'm very happy to respond on that.
HUMPHRYS: Well I would dispute the others weren't
but there we are.
RIFKIND: OK well we're entitled each to our own
opinion. I think on the issue of a referendum, I think that the arguments that
are pointing towards a referendum on fundamental constitutional issues have
certainly got greater over the last year, and I'll tell you why I think that.
It used to be argued, I think with some
justification, that if you had a referendum, it tended to be just an opinion
poll on whether the Government of the day, Labour or Conservative, was popular
or unpopular and the argument was that Parliament on the other hand would
address these issues very much on their merits. I think that the way we have
seen the Opposition perform over the last year makes that very much more
difficult to sustain because on Maastricht, for example, or on the European
Finance Bill, where the Opposition actually supported the Government on the
merits of the issue, for understandable opportunistic reasons, they voted with
our rebels to try and defeat the Government, and therefore one can't argue that
Parliament is addressing this issue on its merits unlike a referendum so I
think there is now a change in the nature of the argument. I'm not yet certain
whether it will require a referendum. That frankly would depend on whether a
proposition before the public or before Parliament is sufficiently fundamental
to justify it. I don't think you have a referendum on a day to day issue, or
on a minor change of policy, or a minor proposal that arises from an
international negotiation, but on fundamental constitutional questions, clearly
the arguments are moving in that direction.
HUMPHRYS: As far as you're concerned, would
joining up to a single currency be one of those fundamental issues on which a
referendum ought to be held?
RIFKIND: Well that's the issue that is being
discussed in many places in Westminster and around the country at the present
time. I don't think anyone has come to a conclusion on that yet. We're not
going to have a single currency in the next few years, I don't believe the
issue has to be addressed at this precise moment in time, but I've not doubt
that if at any stage, a decision was required on a single currency, then the
arguments for a referendum would be pretty finely balanced.
HUMPHRYS: But do you think that it would help
unite the party, I mean many people are saying this is the great panacea, this
is the answer to your problems, do you think it would have that effect?
RIFKIND: There is no great panacea in the sense
that you are suggesting. If the Conservative Party and the present Government
is to win the next General Election then three things have to be done, none of
them panaceas. First of all we actually have to have two years of solid
improvement in the standard of living of the British people. I believe what
Kenneth Clarke and what the Government have been doing to restore the strength
of the economy after the recession provides the foundations for that so that is
the first requirement. The second requirement is a restoration of the unity of
the party and of the Government. Unless we are unified, we will not win the
election, nor deserve to, and the third thing we have to do is in a tough and
determined way, show the fundamental bankruptcy of the current Labour Party.
The nation knows what the Labour Party tries to say it's now no longer
supporting. Nobody knows what the Labour Party actually stands for. What does
Mr Blair actually believe in. That is not known and no Government, no Party
can come into Government simply based on the hoped for unpopularity of its
opponents.
HUMPHRYS: How much longer can you go on like this
with you've accepted is this degree of disunity?
RIFKIND: Well I believe the Government still is
able to govern, and on the vast majority of its business we do have a
Parliamentary majority. The economy is continuing to improve. We are able to
get the vast majority of our legislation through the House of Commons, so I
don't myself believe that is to be a fundamental problem.
HUMPHRYS: Politically I mean.
RIFKIND The Government will continue to the end
of its parliamentary term and then the nation will decide. And the nation will
quite properly decide both on the Government, but also on what the national
requires for the future.
HUMPHRYS: But what I mean is, politically as you
acknowledged quite freely, this is causing you damage. For how much, for how
much longer can you go on having the sort of damage inflicted upon you without
it proving terminal.
RIFKIND: Well these are words and frankly
Governments have often had to go through periods of great difficulty. I don't
doubt this is a very serious one and it could prove very damaging to the
Government's long term success, I don't question that but there's not going to
be some great moment when it all suddenly comes to an end. General Elections
are what determine the fate of Governments and quite properly, it will
determine the fate of this Government. Either the nation will conclude that it
wants a change or it will conclude that the Conservative Party continues to be
the party in which it should have its trust.
HUMPHRYS: Malcolm Rifkind, that you very much.
RIFKIND: Thank you very much.
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